A capitalistic system is unnatural, it is an abomination.

[Albion]

Free-market is still not the way of God

It's very hard to argue that the way of God is not that people be free.

This came from the Parable of the Workers of the Vineyard:

Matthew 20:1-6

Actually, the parable of the vineyard is all about private enterprise. There was no involvement of government agents in the parable.

Generosity is the way of God.

Then BE generous. You're not speaking of an economic system there, nor was Jesus.

And yet, USA loves Saudi and it is one of its close allies. In fact, the Saudis love Americans too. They mistreat and abuse other expats and non-arabs but treat westeners and anyone coming from rich countries as their own!

...and again, you're back to complaining about a GOVERNMENTAL policy, a POLITICAL policy, not an economic system.

 

[TheBarrd]

It's very hard to argue that the way of God is not that people be free.

You make a very good point, of course, Albion.
I wonder...what sort of economic system do you think God would design?

 

[Albion]

You make a very good point, of course, Albion.
I wonder...what sort of economic system do you think God would design?

I don't think God designed or would design any particular economic system for mankind except that he endowed all of us with certain natural rights among which is the right to be free from enslavement by other people. That problem, however, is inherent in any economic system other than free enterprise. The closest that we come to having a Biblical commentary on God's thinking about this particular matter seems to be what he declared to Adam and Eve on the occasion of them being driven from the Garden. That was that they would have to earn their living by the sweat of their brows, and that presumes--I believe--that Adam would make his own way in the world.

 

[southcountry]

The greed of material things has gotten out of control. The idea that we all need new houses and cars and every other play thing is the lust of this world, and is placed directly in all our minds by demonic influences. This is Babylon. From the day we are born till the day we die, those forces work at us to never be happy with the natural world, but to continually go against the grain of it. Most of us have no choice. We must all have a vehicle, burn fuel, use the paper and digital currency. There is no way out.

We are also forced into the concept of ownership because we must keep the material objects we have worked so hard for away from the " unbelievers", lest they corrupt our safehaven in life.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Case in point...we have the electric car...

Where is it?

I doubt the electric car will ever become big. The main reason is we have to produce the power to run it. Then further inefficiency is introduced by use of batteries. Photovoltaics are still very expensive for the amount of power produced, so basically all these cars will be charged by hooking up to an A/C electric grid which is itself only about 40% efficient. Most of this electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels - so the pollution tradeoff is just switched over to the power plant.

I think the new fuel cell technology is a better prospect for cars - including electric cars. Until that time, natural gas is a cleaner and cheaper option for cars.

There are also nuclear technologies we need to develop which may help us produce electricity - perhaps the most practical would be the thorium reactor. We already know it works, but need to work out the engineering on it. This promises to be a much safer reactor than what we currently operate. Then there may also be breakthroughs in fusion power.

 

[southcountry]

I doubt the electric car will ever become big. The main reason is we have to produce the power to run it. Then further inefficiency is introduced by use of batteries. Photovoltaics are still very expensive for the amount of power produced, so basically all these cars will be charged by hooking up to an A/C electric grid which is itself only about 40% efficient. Most of this electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels - so the pollution tradeoff is just switched over to the power plant.

I think the new fuel cell technology is a better prospect for cars - including electric cars. Until that time, natural gas is a cleaner and cheaper option for cars.

There are also nuclear technologies we need to develop which may help us produce electricity - perhaps the most practical would be the thorium reactor. We already know it works, but need to work out the engineering on it. This promises to be a much safer reactor than what we currently operate. Then there may also be breakthroughs in fusion power.

With new battery technology an electric motor can be more efficient than internal combustion. The losses as you say are in the power grid.

What I would like to see is internal combustion which turns all the excess heat into rotational motion and adds it to the drive train.

Actually I would like to see LENR research funded heavily.

 

[RevelationTestament]

If you want to keep free market alive, you should avoid developing these technologies:

- Anything that is reasonably cheap and built to work reliably at least 10 years even in extreme conditions without needing any maintenance.

- Cheap devices which can efficiently harness solar or ambient heat or zero point energy.

- cheap machines which can efficiently make water from the moisture in the air.

- Any machine which can improve itself and make replicates of improved versions of itself.

- Polymorphing/self-improving/repairing machines.

- any self-repairing technology.

- machines which can be physically and electronically upgraded from the internet or if you're a CAD/CAM wiz, do-it-yourself for free!

- networked nanobots which could assemble themselves into whatever thing they must perform.

- Cheap transmuters which can transform any matter into anything.

Any technology which makes you not need to buy nor pay for anything is bad for free market.

And we're speaking of pretty amazing technologies that would set the stage for quantum leap progress for all humanity.

Are we willing to avoid that quantum leap of technological innovations and even possibly eliminate poverty permanently just so we can keep free-market alive?

While at first you might think this is so, it is not. Many of these types of technologies have been developed already which is why productivity has gone up, so the standard of living has gone up... More people can afford a home, a car, etc exactly because for example the invention of the computer made us more efficient. Secretaries can now get a lot more work done in less time and with less paper etc. Computer technology has enabled us to design even better and faster computers. This killed the old typewriter technology, but not the economy. Because of the improved efficiency it is cheaper to get things done - even the cost of computers has gone down. Has that been bad for the free market? No. Now they have gotten so small, you hold a computer in your hand when you make a phone call - check your email, etc. Communication has led to further increased productivity. This doesn't hurt the free market, but helps it. It is why the standard of living in the U.S. has continued to go up. So all those things you list would be good for a free capitalist market, and yes, could help eliminate poverty, and I proffer already have. As I have repeatedly stated, most "poor" in the U.S. are well off by world standards. This is exactly because our economy produces more with less than it used to - less labor and less resources.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Free-market is still not the way of God

This came from the Parable of the Workers of the Vineyard:

Matthew 20:1-6

12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ 13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

This parable is not really about employment. It is about working for the Lord. That doesn't pay an earthly salary, but a heavenly one. Which is why He concluded 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Everyone shall receive that which He is promised:
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

 

[timewerx]

With new battery technology an electric motor can be more efficient than internal combustion. The losses as you say are in the power grid.

What I would like to see is internal combustion which turns all the excess heat into rotational motion and adds it to the drive train.

Actually I would like to see LENR research funded heavily.

I have a concept even better and a lot cheaper than the LENR. I don't need big funding on it, I only need a decent job by western standards and I could fund the research myself and still finish the work in record time.

I could of course, also post / share my concept publicly online and let others who are way better off than me do it instead.

It doesn't need any kind of fuel, nor wind nor water, nor sun to provide energy. All it needs is ambient heat energy and the "exhaust" is the loss of ambient heat energy. In other words, when it captures the ambient heat from its surroundings, it makes around it very cold.

It works based on an overlooked possibility using the simple gas laws. It only breaks one law of physics which is the 2nd law of thermodynamics which even mainstream scientists acknowledge is not absolute and can indeed be logically violated in some circumstances. It's only a matter of harnessing that "anomaly" in a large and practical scale and I think I have figured out a practical solution.

It still doesn't violate the 3rd law (conservation of energy) but as I've said, it harnesses an exceedingly abundant energy that is all around us and doesn't need fuel to generate - ambient heat energy. Ambient heat energy is anything hotter than -273' Celsius so even a freezing 0' Celsius contains a LOT of ambient heat energy - as per latent heat that can be held by any material.

It is the ultimate and cheap solution to all our energy problems, all kinds of pollution, and would absolutely solve global warming, even be used to reverse its effects because it converts ambient heat into other forms of energy. In fact, if we use it to radiate vast amounts of light energy into space, it will actively cool the planet.


Too much talk, I think I'd rather try to build it first and test it.

 

[HonestTruth]

It's not so much capitalism that fails but the "trickle down" Republicanism that is the big failure.

The majority of Americans are finally seeing its failings:

Americans Continue to Say U.S. Wealth Distribution Is Unfair

The ideal solution is to end the corporate welfare state by ending all overseas tax shelters and by eliminating war profits. This would make our brand of capitalism more in line with biblical teaching. All principled conservatives and Christians should readily agree with that.

 

[Albion]

Sure. ENVY is a common feature of human nature. If your neighbor has more than you do, you're likely to tell a pollster that it's "unfair!" All that means is you want some of what he earned. Nothing special in that kind of vote. It's just one of humankind's most base instincts coming out.

But if we get back to the OP, there is no doubt whatever that Free Enterprise is the most natural of all economic systems since, if left alone, men will produce and sell according to the impersonal laws of supply and demand. By contrast, Socialism is the least natural.

 

[timewerx]

But if we get back to the OP, there is no doubt whatever that Free Enterprise is the most natural of all economic systems since, if left alone, men will produce and sell according to the impersonal laws of supply and demand. By contrast, Socialism is the least natural.

Most natural of the economic systems probably, but still distant to natural systems.

If free enterprise was really free, then it would allow equally skilled, equally hard-working, and equally ingenious men and women to achieve the same status in life, but as it stands, it doesn't happen because opportunities aren't equal in all places.

Poverty is even tolerated because such conditions provide sources of cheap exploitable labor.

The poor deserves their fair wages but it doesn't happen because they being forced to choose between survival by just enough compensation which is miserably way less for their labor or starvation.

Western nations will not try, nor intervene in the exploitation of the poor in 3rd world nations because they provide cheap exploitable labor (work for cheap wage or starve) so they can have their goods cheaply or maximize profits. Disturbingly enoough, most poeple in the world live in 3rd world conditions.

Free enterprise resulting to only 5% of the world population living in relative freedom compared to the rest of the world due to grossly unequal compensation and discrimination strongly dictated by the economics of their citizenship??

I hardly call that free enterprise. I'll simply call it evil.

There is nothing more evil than exploiting desperate people who are suffering and even add to their misery and that is the product of free enterprise. Sorry, I don't have appetite for such garbage systems. They are no different than people who rape the weak for pleasure or run people to the ground for more profits.


It is always dangerous to assume just because something is classified to be best at the momen means it is not bad by absolute measure. This kind of thinking is what kills our desire to innovate, to invent, to discover new and better ways to live.

We now have the solution to change all that, that is impossible 50 years ago, thanks to the advances in research in Artificial Intelligence. What's people so fear in AI is that it will uncover our grossly inefficient and corrupt system and will try to correct it which will rob those few in power of their power and wealth.

 

[Venusfreedom777]

The sun's light and rain falls on everyone. Fresh, clean water, fresh air goes to everyone for free. Fruits you can eat for free.

It does not discriminate whether you are rich or poor or skilled or otherwise or good or bad or good looking or less good looking or had good manners or not.

Of course not all of these are free anymore as it used to be in the original creation when man started to take/steal/conquer things for himself, erecting walls, and borders and charging unjustifiable price for the use of land he stole (taken forcibly by invasion/war or even by deceit)



The blessings of the capitalistic system only benefits and provides freedom for the few while the rest labor in misery. It originated from the sale of lands - lands which are originally free - courtesy of God! Lands which contained fresh fruits, water, and air. Lands which are then stolen.

This is ultimately how poverty was begotten. It's age-old, many thousands of years issue. Before any wars, invasions, erecting walls, establishing borders ever done, there was no poverty, no crime, nada...

The ultimate source of money and hence, capitalism is greed/selfishness. Is it God's Will? No, nie, never! Everything that is not of God - not originally his creation is an abomination!

That is why:

Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.


Note: Luke 16:13 doesn't mean that you will love money a lot lot lot less than God. It literally means, if you love God, you will absolutely hate money like pile of dung.

This hate of money will be clearly reflected in your life.

I'm not promoting poverty. Poverty isn't right either. Because we live in an evil capitalistic system, if you live right, you may likely end up in poverty.

Because our evil world actually punishes the good-doers and rewards the evil, most greedy, most deceitful, most selfish.

That is how it goes and in addition, material wealth will actually make you really really stupid - bad choice/goal in life if you wanted to know the truth in order to be set free.[/QUO

 

[Venusfreedom777]

The sun's light and rain falls on everyone. Fresh, clean water, fresh air goes to everyone for free. Fruits you can eat for free.

It does not discriminate whether you are rich or poor or skilled or otherwise or good or bad or good looking or less good looking or had good manners or not.

Of course not all of these are free anymore as it used to be in the original creation when man started to take/steal/conquer things for himself, erecting walls, and borders and charging unjustifiable price for the use of land he stole (taken forcibly by invasion/war or even by deceit)



The blessings of the capitalistic system only benefits and provides freedom for the few while the rest labor in misery. It originated from the sale of lands - lands which are originally free - courtesy of God! Lands which contained fresh fruits, water, and air. Lands which are then stolen.

This is ultimately how poverty was begotten. It's age-old, many thousands of years issue. Before any wars, invasions, erecting walls, establishing borders ever done, there was no poverty, no crime, nada...

The ultimate source of money and hence, capitalism is greed/selfishness. Is it God's Will? No, nie, never! Everything that is not of God - not originally his creation is an abomination!

That is why:

Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.


Note: Luke 16:13 doesn't mean that you will love money a lot lot lot less than God. It literally means, if you love God, you will absolutely hate money like pile of dung.

This hate of money will be clearly reflected in your life.

I'm not promoting poverty. Poverty isn't right either. Because we live in an evil capitalistic system, if you live right, you may likely end up in poverty.

Because our evil world actually punishes the good-doers and rewards the evil, most greedy, most deceitful, most selfish.

That is how it goes and in addition, material wealth will actually make you really really stupid - bad choice/goal in life if you wanted to know the truth in order to be set free.

You are one of the few spreading the word of Truth on this topic. You are speaking the Truth of sacred scripture in a culture of lies and clearly your thoughts reflect how Jesus thought. Acts 4:32 makes it crystal clear about how community is supposed to be operate and how we are to view God's provision. There can be no question about Jesus being a capital C, communist. The goal that my husband and I have is to go in together with true believers and buy some land and grow food and let people live on it without cost. It is all we can do.

 

[Venusfreedom777]

Any system led by evil people or any system where the evil prospers is never an alternative.

We live in a broken system. The strong are favored by justice and the economy and the weak neglected by it so the strong gets stronger and the weak gets weaker. This is why the gap between rich and poor keeps increasing.

The gap between the rich and poor is usually used as a "health" index to judge the well-being of a nation in terms of its citizens.


Nations which have the highest satisfaction of index by their citizens are also the same nations which have the least gap between the rich and poor.

Nations or places wherein the gap between the rich and poor is very high tends to have low satisfaction index and the crime rates, injustice, and human rights abuses tend to be high and general lack of peace.

This is just saying, the more you neglect the poor, the greater the lack of peace and human rights abues will be for any nation or place. I cannot stress this enough. Our misdeeds of today, our children will inherit tomorrow. We cannot escape the consequences of greed and selfishness.

Absolutely true

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Good luck with that. It has been tried many times BTW and it never lasts longs. People are people. Your best bet I think is to keep it in the family, preferably a large family. At least that way there are stronger ties to keep the bond required to make such a system continue. Even then there will be strife over people not carrying their weight. Ultimately if everyone is given the same "share" regardless of individual effort there is no incentive (actually there is negative incentive) for the gifted to work harder and even less incentive for the lazy to work at all.

And as for the early Church practices, they did indeed share - but it was not communism or even a commune - it was people earning a living (what ever that happened to be) and sharing through the Church from their surplus with the less fortunate in the Church. The "offering" collected consisted of not just money as a tithe but also the surplus fruits of their labor as tithes and that offering was then immediately passed back out NOT AS AN EQUAL SHARE TO EVERYONE but to widows, disabled, elderly, sick...etc and it also supported the local clergy (and visiting leaders). Am told the same practice occurs in some Parishes in certain parts of the world today. I have heard visiting Priests from South America speak of livestock being brought forward during the presentation of gifts. In the Parishes I have belonged to here in the states, the same thing occurs but it is primarily a monetary transaction and unfortunately less visible than a physical transaction/distribution immediately after Mass would be.

The curse brought more than just a fallen nature, it also had effect on creation. It was said we would have to toil for our survival and so we have.

Mankind has tried numerous different economic systems all with good points and bad points, and the bad primarily often exacerbated by the system being run by sinners. None of the systems has produced a general level of wealth that comes to close to what America accomplished in such a relatively short time. Even most of those on welfare in our country live well above anything people globally would consider poor. The income gaps people talk about are indeed there but that has more to do with the people we keep electing and the laws/regulations we allow them to put on us than it does our economic system. And in allowing them to do that to our country we have also gone away from what I think most would call a free market capitalism, which also BTW strengthens both their wealth and power.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<<The blessings of the capitalistic system only benefits and provides freedom for the few while the rest labor in misery. >>

That is, of course, utter rubbish.

The command of God to the Israelites was that every family would be given land after they had driven out the Canaanites. Then they would plant crops and vineyards and raise sheep, goats, and cattle. They would support themselves in an agrarian economy with each family owning the means of production.

That is Capitalism. That is what God commanded.

In the book of Acts, Luke reported that the people voluntarily gave of their possessions so that no one would lack anything. But they did not cease to own the means of producing wealth. They did not "own" land, herds, or flocks "in common."

If you want to see the great benefits of communism then go to socialist countries like Cuba and China and Venezuela and you will find the populations living in poverty compared to the prosperity which the USA enjoyed prior to embarking on the path of "profound change" which was generated by free market capitalism, not central-government planned socialism.

There are shortcomings in both systems because the people who run the systems are fallible human beings. Capitalism and socialism are both neutral. What people do with them is the corrupting agent which produces the misery.

 

[timewerx]

You are one of the few spreading the word of Truth on this topic. You are speaking the Truth of sacred scripture in a culture of lies and clearly your thoughts reflect how Jesus thought. Acts 4:32 makes it crystal clear about how community is supposed to be operate and how we are to view God's provision. There can be no question about Jesus being a capital C, communist. The goal that my husband and I have is to go in together with true believers and buy some land and grow food and let people live on it without cost. It is all we can do.

God Bless you for real!

I am an inventor I'm trying to make technologies at the extreme level of ruggedness, simplicity, self-sufficiency, and energy efficiency.

At the moment, I'm focused with alternative energy sources.

Self-sufficiency and less dependence from limited resources will naturally distribute the power and wealth back to the masses and if possible, eliminate poverty and save humanity at the same time. No need for a revolution, people are naturally drawn to stuff which gives them the biggest bang for the buck....

...This is where technology is headed. Unless some cataclysm stalls it, money will be pointless in the future when you'll be able to build your own stuff and automation will be self-managing they never ever need a human to run it and machines don't require money to work! ;P

 

[timewerx]

<<The blessings of the capitalistic system only benefits and provides freedom for the few while the rest labor in misery. >>

That is, of course, utter rubbish.

The command of God to the Israelites was that every family would be given land after they had driven out the Canaanites. Then they would plant crops and vineyards and raise sheep, goats, and cattle. They would support themselves in an agrarian economy with each family owning the means of production.

That is Capitalism. That is what God commanded.

In the book of Acts, Luke reported that the people voluntarily gave of their possessions so that no one would lack anything. But they did not cease to own the means of producing wealth. They did not "own" land, herds, or flocks "in common."

If you want to see the great benefits of communism then go to socialist countries like Cuba and China and Venezuela and you will find the populations living in poverty compared to the prosperity which the USA enjoyed prior to embarking on the path of "profound change" which was generated by free market capitalism, not central-government planned socialism.

There are shortcomings in both systems because the people who run the systems are fallible human beings. Capitalism and socialism are both neutral. What people do with them is the corrupting agent which produces the misery.

In 100 more years, money will amount to rubbish.

1. Self-managing, self-improving, and self-replicating automation that doesn't require human intervention, ever.

2. Ability to design and build your own stuff including food, shelter, transport, and clothing using a far more advanced and far more cheaper 3D printers in the next century - that can replicate its own parts in case, some parts get worn out and needs to be replaced. This thing will serve you not just your whole lifetime but also future generations for free!

3. Machines which mine and distribute raw materials free of cost for your 3D printer because of #1


WHat are you gonna do???? Sabotage robotics and replication technologies to keep your precious money and poverty around???

 

[Albion]

The "Capitalist" system--if by that we mean the Free Enterprise system--is the only one that it compatible with Christian moral standards. And if what is meant instead is "Crony Capitalism," which no one says they favor, that is possible only when government moves away from the Free Enterprise system.