A.A Hodge: Apparent contradictions between Science and the Bible

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Micaiah

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Here is a quote from the link mentioned above about Hodge.

From the above overview of his writings, that Hodge's main objection to Darwinism was its exclusion of design is clear. That he considered this exclusion as excluding God and therefore atheistic and incompatible with Christianity is also clear. Were Hodge's conclusions valid? In Charles Hodge's Critique of Darwinism, Jonathan Wells, himself a professed believer in evolution6, evaluates Hodge's arguments and conclusions, as well as the validity of Hodge representing mainstream Christianity of the period. He confirms both that Hodge was correct in his understanding of Darwinism (as defined by Darwin himself) and Christianity (as the mainstream theology throughout its history has understood it) as fundamentally incompatible and that Hodge did accurately represent Christian theological tradition as a whole (Wells 1988:215-223).
I don't think Hodge is a good person for TE's to quote. But hey, thanks anyway.

I take it you are trying to convince us that the account given in Genesis is compatible with God using evolution.

From what I can gather, some people at least believe Hodge demonstrated evolution was incompatible with the Bible's teaching of Creation.
 
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ab1385

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I'm not trying to persuade you of anything, other than that using what God either 'would have' or 'should have' done, or what you would have done in His position given a certain set of circumstances is a weak base for an interpretation of scripture at best.

There is a subtle difference between me telling you Genesis and evolution are compatible, and me asking you to question whether preconcieved ideas about how God 'should' work are a good basis for deciding that there is absolutely no way for evolution to be compatible with scripture. That was all this was about, if you believe that other parts of scripture leave no room for an evolutionary approach at all, and this has nothing to do with 'how you would have done things if you were God', then thats fair enough, and we can agree to differ on this point.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Micaiah said:
Hopefuly he is not suggesting that everything is a matter of interpretaton and we cannot be sure absolutely sure about anything asserted in Scripture.
---cut for brevity---

look at the pieces of this:


Hopefuly he is not suggesting that everything is a matter of interpretaton


as we read Scripture, we must read it through a veil of human interpretation, we have no choice. The only other option is to read it through God's eyes, something we simply can not do. So it is apparent that we do interpret everything we read.


we cannot be sure absolutely sure about anything asserted in Scripture.


but does this follow from the necessity for interpretation?
first of all we need to determine if we as fallen human beings can be absolutely sure about anything. Is there an absolute need to believe at a 100% level versus a 99%? Since sin remains in us until the judgement day, i would propose that we can not be absolutely sure as you would propose, but rather need to trust God for that remaining 1%.

so life is probabilistic, so what? striving to increase certainty by study, prayer, and the exercise of the means of grace gets the crucial elements of the faith to a probability level of 99% . do you really think that you need more, given the nature of the God we deal with?

but the question you ask about interpretation still isn't answered. What really concerns you is the relativity of many of the answers in Scriptural interpretation. So it ought to bother anyone. so ought the deeper questions brought up by denominationalism and the various deep differences within the Church. but is it going to help to propose that absolute certainty is necessary and that you know what it is?

i am neither a theological liberal nor a relativist, but simply asserting my views as absolute truth appears to be a poor way to persuade people that they are true. Plus it has the added disadvantage that i probably dont really understand them if that is the only way i have to express them. I would suggest that there are more effective and interesting ways to combat relativism then to rule it out with faulty definitions.

...
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
Here is a quote from the link mentioned above about Hodge.

From the above overview of his writings, that Hodge's main objection to Darwinism was its exclusion of design is clear. That he considered this exclusion as excluding God and therefore atheistic and incompatible with Christianity is also clear. Were Hodge's conclusions valid?


I don't think Hodge is a good person for TE's to quote. But hey, thanks anyway.

Actually, that is what makes him a good person for TEs to quote. He doesn't oppose evolution as such, but a misuse of the theory to support materialistic atheism.

TEs have no problem agreeing that God designed evolution and used it to achieve his purposes. That perspective incorporates a teleology into evolution which is not available to a strictly scientific presentation, but which is not incompatible with it either.

From what I can gather, some people at least believe Hodge demonstrated evolution was incompatible with the Bible's teaching of Creation.

Hodge certainly held that atheist-friendly presentations of evolution were incompatible with the Bible's teaching of Creation, and TEs would agree with that. But he was no YEC. He seems to have taken a predominantly OEC position, while attempting to see if "Darwinism" (as he dubbed the atheist-friendly version of evolution) could be salvaged and incorporated within a Christian perspective.

I would never claim Hodge was a TE. But he is illustrative of a thoughtful, cautious OEC position of the late 19th century that is willing to explore evolution as long as it does not mean committing to atheism.

His successors at Princeton did complete the journey of moving to an affirmation of TE.
 
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Micaiah

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Actually, that is what makes him a good person for TEs to quote. He doesn't oppose evolution as such, but a misuse of the theory to support materialistic atheism.

TEs have no problem agreeing that God designed evolution and used it to achieve his purposes. That perspective incorporates a teleology into evolution which is not available to a strictly scientific presentation, but which is not incompatible with it either.
Hodge doesn't believe evolution is consistent with the teaching of Scripture.

Hodge certainly held that atheist-friendly presentations of evolution were incompatible with the Bible's teaching of Creation, and TEs would agree with that. But he was no YEC. He seems to have taken a predominantly OEC position, while attempting to see if "Darwinism" (as he dubbed the atheist-friendly version of evolution) could be salvaged and incorporated within a Christian perspective.
So what is the difference between an atheist friendly version of evolution, and the TE version, or some other version that is compatible with Scripture?

I would never claim Hodge was a TE. But he is illustrative of a thoughtful, cautious OEC position of the late 19th century that is willing to explore evolution as long as it does not mean committing to atheism.

His successors at Princeton did complete the journey of moving to an affirmation of TE.
See above comments.
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
Hodge doesn't believe evolution is consistent with the teaching of Scripture.

Charles Hodge did not believe Darwinism was consistent with scripture. Most people do not distinguish Darwinism from evolution, but Hodge did. In modern terms, Hodge was protesting against the use of evolution to bolster philosophical materialism and the denial of God.

But in his best known work on the subject, What is Darwinism?, he takes care to distinguish Darwinism from evolution and to focus on what he considers anti-Christian about Darwinism.

Hodge saw Darwinism as made up of three components: evolution, natural selection, and a rejection of teleology (i.e. purposeful design). Of these he said:

...neither the first nor the second of these elements constitute Darwinism; nor do the two combined. ... the most important and only distinctive element of his theory [is] that this natural selection is without design, being conducted by unintelligent causes.

It is neither evolution nor natural selection which give Darwinism its peculiar character and importance. It is that Darwin rejects all teleology, or the doctrine of final causes.

Several times, in the same work, Hodge emphasizes that evolution is not to be equated with Darwinism. He even insists that "a man may be an evolutionist without being a Darwinian".

In his Systematic Theology he notes:

In saying that this system [Darwinism] is atheistic, it is not said that Mr. Darwin was an atheist. ... Nor is it meant that everyone who adopts the theory does it in an atheistic sense. It has already been remarked that there is a theistic and an atheistic form of the nebular hypothesis as to the origin of the universe; so there may be a theistic interpretation of the Darwinian theory.

However, concerning Darwinism, he concludes:
The conclusion of the whole latter is that the denial of design in nature is virtually the denial of God. Mr. Darwin's theory does deny all design in nature, therefore his theory is virtually atheistical.

All the above are cited on pages 104-105 of Darwin's Forgotten Defenders by David Livingstone whose own conclusion is

Thus, Hodge held that evolution with design was Christian, but evolution without design was atheism.

One thing I note is that nowhere does Hodge appear to appeal to a literal interpretation of scripture to deny Darwinism. Perhaps, since he did accept an old age for the earth and could not appeal, therefore, to a literal 6-day creation.

A word should be said as well about A.A. Hodge who was first referenced in this thread. A.A. Hodge was Charles Hodge's son and his successor at Princeton. The younger Hodge, was of course, considerably influenced by his father. But, unlike his father, he was also influenced by James McCosh, a former president of Princeton when it was still the College of New Jersey. McCosh did identify design in evolution and set out to prove that the natural origin of species is not inconsistent with intelligent design in nature or with the existence of a personal creator of the world. (ibid p. 106) And by such well-known theistic evolutionists as Asa Gray, James Dana and George Wright who all advocated acceptance of a Christianized Darwinism.

Ultimately, A.A. agreed that if the universe is a manifestation of a coherent plan of God, then the concept of "an ideal evolution, a providential unfolding of a general plan, in which general designs and methods converge in all directions to the ultimate end of the whole" is far from incompatible with Christian theism.

In an introduction to a colleague's book on theism and evolution, A.A. Hodge affirmed:
Evolution considered as a plan of an infinitely wise person, and executed under the control of his everywhere present energies can never be considered irreligious; can never exclude design, providence, grace or miracles.

(ibid p. 114)

Micaiah said:
So what is the difference between an atheist friendly version of evolution, and the TE version, or some other version that is compatible with Scripture?

I think the two Hodges, father and son, have expounded the difference well.
 
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Micaiah

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You appear to have a good familiarity with the background of the Hodges and some of their beliefs on this matter. Certainly more than my own. I'd be interested to see a link to the reference sited if possible.

Could you give a descrition of Hodges version of evolution, or the 'christianized version of Darwin?

What do you believe?
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
You appear to have a good familiarity with the background of the Hodges and some of their beliefs on this matter. Certainly more than my own. I'd be interested to see a link to the reference sited if possible.

It's not a site. It's a book. And a very useful book. I highly recommend it.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573830933/002-1836828-0038458?v=glance

Could you give a descrition of Hodges version of evolution, or the 'christianized version of Darwin?

Theologians don't have "versions" of evolution. TE is not a "version" of evolution. Science decides what evolution is. Theisitic evolution is a theological reflection on what science has discovered, not a different version of the scientific theory.

Charles Hodges' reflection led him to reject evolution if it was conceived to exclude design. This designless, purposeless evolution is what he called "Darwinism".

His son, A.A. Hodge, concluded that evolution was not without design and could be "a plan of an infinitely wise person, and executed under the control of his everywhere present energies". So he accepted it.

What do you believe?

I agree with Hodge, Jr.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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several important books in the discussion

what is darwinianism? by Charles Hodge
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_3/002-2026681-2703225?v=glance&s=books

Evolution, Scripture, and Science by bb warfield
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_3/002-2026681-2703225?v=glance&s=books

but i'd second the link to read darwin's forgotten defenders first.
because these theologians wrote and interacted with the first generations after darwin they have some very important insights to transmit to us.
 
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Micaiah

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You said:

And by such well-known theistic evolutionists as Asa Gray, James Dana and George Wright who all advocated acceptance of a Christianized Darwinism.
And:

Hodge certainly held that atheist-friendly presentations of evolution were incompatible with the Bible's teaching of Creation, and TEs would agree with that. But he was no YEC. He seems to have taken a predominantly OEC position, while attempting to see if "Darwinism" (as he dubbed the atheist-friendly version of evolution) could be salvaged and incorporated within a Christian perspective.
And:

Charles Hodge did not believe Darwinism was consistent with scripture. Most people do not distinguish Darwinism from evolution, but Hodge did. In modern terms, Hodge was protesting against the use of evolution to bolster philosophical materialism and the denial of God.
You are asserting there is a certain version of evolution that is compatible with Scripture, and one that is compatible with atheism. I'm asking what the difference is.

Then you said:

Theologians don't have "versions" of evolution. TE is not a "version" of evolution. Science decides what evolution is. Theisitic evolution is a theological reflection on what science has discovered, not a different version of the scientific theory.
So have you changed your tune here?

Also, please advise the scientific credentials of the Hodges. Did they have any scientific training? Did they ever work as scientists?
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
You are asserting there is a certain version of evolution that is compatible with Scripture, and one that is compatible with atheism. I'm asking what the difference is.

No, there are not different versions of the theory of evolution.

There are differences in the presentation of the theory according to the differing philosophies of the presenters. That is as true today as it ever was. Compare Kenneth Miller's presentation of evolution with that of Richard Dawkins. They both present the same theory, but with different conclusions about what it means theologically and philosophically.

But it is the same theory either way.

Also, please advise the scientific credentials of the Hodges. Did they have any scientific training? Did they ever work as scientists?

As far as I know, as scientists, they would both be amateurs, but we could say "informed amateurs". They did not speak of evolution out of sheer ignorance. The elder Hodge's work shows good familiarity with the theory and the ongoing scientific and theological debates.

Both were clergy and theologians by profession. So, their evaluation of evolution was based on their theological analysis of the theory.
 
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Micaiah

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So you are saying Hodges knowledge of science was essentially academic, ie he read a lot of books. Also, I take it he had no formal training in any of the sciences.I don't like the conclusions Darwin promoted from his research, but you couldn't call him an academic. He went out and actually observed and studied nature.

Since you apparently know the distictives of the Hodges 'presentation' of evolution, I'll ask again that you present them please. What are the basic tenets of Darwinian evolution. What aspects did Hodge concur with, and what aspects did he disagree with.
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
So you are saying Hodges knowledge of science was essentially academic, ie he read a lot of books. Also, I take it he had no formal training in any of the sciences.I don't like the conclusions Darwin promoted from his research, but you couldn't call him an academic. He went out and actually observed and studied nature.

Since you apparently know the distictives of the Hodges 'presentation' of evolution, I'll ask again that you present them please. What are the basic tenets of Darwinian evolution. What aspects did Hodge concur with, and what aspects did he disagree with.

Are you being deliberately obtuse, Micaiah? We've been over this several times now.

These theologians did not make presentations of the theory of evolution. They evaluated the theory theologically. The key question for both was:

"Is the theory of evolution consistent with the presence of design in nature?"

Hodge, Sr. believed it was not, and hence opposed it. Hodge, Jr. concluded it was, and so accepted it.

What is noteworthy to me, is that as Christian theologians, they did not make their evaluation dependent on an interpretation of Genesis, but rather more generally on the doctrine of Creation. Both agreed that Creation implies purpose and design. If the theory of evolution excludes purpose and design, it is not compatible with Creation. It it does not exclude purpose and design, then it can be compatible with Creation.

This is a matter of philosophy/theology, not science. Scientists themselves differ on this point.
 
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Micaiah

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Taken from the link above on Charles Hodge, father of AA Hodge. Hodge in now way condoned evolution, and saw it as contradicting Scripture.

Hodge's critique of Darwinism is part of his Anthropology section in volume 2 of Systematic Theology. This section begins with an explanation of the "Scriptural Doctrine" regarding the origin of mankind. He points out two things from the scriptural account in Genesis; first that man's body was formed by the immediate intervention of God and secondly, that his soul was derived from God. It as one of the subsections under "Anti-Scriptural Theories" that Hodge considers Darwinism (C. Hodge 1872:vol. 2,1-12).


Hodge acknowledges Darwin's status as a prominent naturalist and for his knowledge and skill in observation and description, as well as his "frankness and fairness." He states that his theory, however, suffers from the basic defect of attributing "all the infinite diversities and marvelous organisms of plants and animals … are due to the operation of unintelligent physical causes." Then the principles of the Darwinian theory are summarized: first, that like begets like; second, the law of variation; third, increase of plants and animals giving rise to a continuous and universal struggle for life; and fourth, in this struggle the fittest survive. This fourth principle is "natural selection," that nature "without intelligence or purpose" selects the individuals best adapted to continue and to improve the race. By the operation of these principles in the course of "countless ages" all the many forms of life have come (Ibid.:vol. 2,12-14).

Following his explanation of the Darwinian theory, Hodge makes four remarks regarding it. First, it shocks common sense to be told that "the whale and the humming-bird, man and the mosquito," are derived from the same source. Second, the theory cannot be true because it is founded on the assumption of an impossibility: that matter does the work of mind. Here Hodge is arguing design. His objection is that Darwin argues against the intervention of mind (a designer) anywhere in the process and that this is incredible. Thirdly, (and a corollary to the second remark) "the system is thoroughly atheistic and therefore cannot possibly stand." Darwin posits that God has had nothing to do with the universe since the creation of (a) living germ(s), and to Hodge, this is tantamount to atheism.2 Hodge continues to argue here extensively that Darwinism excludes design. He says that this is "explicitly and repeatedly" asserted and argued for and the opposite view ridiculed and rejected. "His book was hailed as the death-blow of teleology."3 Hodge's fourth remark is that the theory is a mere hypothesis, and incapable of proof by its very nature (Ibid.:vol. 2,14-22).



Hodge's consideration continues by summarizing seven theories of the universe. Herein only the third (Darwin's) and seventh (Scriptural) will be examined. The third view, which Hodge called "speculative," is that of Darwin and his associates who admit the creation of living matter "in the form of one or a few primordial germs." Darwin's theory, despite admitting a creator, is however anti-teleological and atheistic:
…from [one or a few primordial germs] without any purpose or design, by the slow operation of unintelligent natural causes, and accidental variations, during untold ages, all the orders, classes, genera, species, and varieties of plants and animals, from the lowest to the highest, man included, have been formed. Teleology, and therefore mind, or God, is expressly banished from the world.​
The seventh and final theory presented is the Scriptural doctrine. This doctrine teaches three things: 1) That the universe and all it contains owe their existence to the will and power of God; 2) God endowed matter with properties which He upholds and works in accordance with, "using them everywhere and constantly;" 3) That in the beginning God created every distinct species of plant and animal. Darwinism is merely an arraying of probabilities against these teachings of scripture (Ibid.:vol. 2,22-27).


Lastly Hodge discusses the many difficulties in his theory which Darwin admits. He complements Darwin on his candor in acknowledging these grave objections. Of these objections, there are several. Of concern here is the objection that the theory assumes "that matter does the work of mind, that design is accomplished without any designer," regarding which Hodge says Mr. Darwin is equally candid. He quotes Darwin as saying that this difficulty appears "' to our imagination insuperably great'" and that natural selection could form an organ so perfect as the eye "'is more than enough to stagger any one [sic].'" "Mr. Darwin refuses to be staggered by that which he says is enough to stagger any one [sic]." (Ibid.:vol. 2,27-28)
You made the following comments above with reference to Charles Hodge:

Post 24
Actually, that is what makes him a good person for TEs to quote. He doesn't oppose evolution as such, but a misuse of the theory to support materialistic atheism.

TEs have no problem agreeing that God designed evolution and used it to achieve his purposes. That perspective incorporates a teleology into evolution which is not available to a strictly scientific presentation, but which is not incompatible with it either.

Hodge certainly held that atheist-friendly presentations of evolution were incompatible with the Bible's teaching of Creation, and TEs would agree with that. But he was no YEC. He seems to have taken a predominantly OEC position, while attempting to see if "Darwinism" (as he dubbed the atheist-friendly version of evolution) could be salvaged and incorporated within a Christian perspective.

I would never claim Hodge was a TE. But he is illustrative of a thoughtful, cautious OEC position of the late 19th century that is willing to explore evolution as long as it does not mean committing to atheism.

His successors at Princeton did complete the journey of moving to an affirmation of TE.

Post 26
Charles Hodge did not believe Darwinism was consistent with scripture. Most people do not distinguish Darwinism from evolution, but Hodge did. In modern terms, Hodge was protesting against the use of evolution to bolster philosophical materialism and the denial of God.

But in his best known work on the subject, What is Darwinism?, he takes care to distinguish Darwinism from evolution and to focus on what he considers anti-Christian about Darwinism.

Hodge saw Darwinism as made up of three components: evolution, natural selection, and a rejection of teleology (i.e. purposeful design). Of these he said:


Several times, in the same work, Hodge emphasizes that evolution is not to be equated with Darwinism. He even insists that "a man may be an evolutionist without being a Darwinian".
I'd like to see the OEC views held by Charles Hodge. He clearly rejected teh fundamental tenets of what we call evolution.
 
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What if God wanted to create the earth in six days, and make it appear to have been made in millions of years?

However, I do not believe in a literal six days, since the sun and moon were made on the fourth day. Gen. 1:14

But then, God certainly was capable of making time stretch during a literal six days, and it was certain God had his own time frame in place at the time of Creation.

Just my 2 cents. :sorry:



 
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gluadys

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SerenityBlue said:
What if God wanted to create the earth in six days, and make it appear to have been made in millions of years?


It raises the question of why God would want to do this. And that goes to the character of God. There are religions which have trickster gods like the African Anansi or the North American Raven. But the bible does not present God as a trickster. Nor as irrational, nor as a deceiver.

It also raises the question of the nature of creation. There are religions which hold that creation is an illusion, that it is not real, but more like a deep, realistic dream. To be saved, one must realize one is dreaming and wake up to escape the illusion. That is not the way the bible presents creation.

If you can support an appearance of age argument without falling into either the pitfall of maligning God's character or denying the reality and rationality of creation, then sure, it's a possibility. Of course, then you have to deal with the question of last Thursdayism.

But then, God certainly was capable of making time stretch during a literal six days, and it was certain God had his own time frame in place at the time of Creation.

A time stretch is a possibility, but then the six days are not really literal. One is back to illusion again. As I see it, it is simpler all around to assume that God's timeframe was the one creation testifies to. It is the only other thing that was around then, right?
 
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