9Marks and Christian Perfection.

[CCHIPSS]

If you dont belong to that church or associated with it i dont think it ought to concern you that much.

9 fruits of the holy spirit..you can tell a person by their fruits. If their fruit is bad, then leave it alone. If the tree has no fruits, leave it for a year, manure it, and wait. It may come right and grow. Thats what Jesus said to do.

Love is one of the fruits of the holy spirit, the others like peace, joy, kindness, goodness, meekness, temperance etc. All signs of healthy christians. This will be reflected in their fellowship with one another.

Sad thing is this does affect me directly. The pastor of my close friend's church is "buying into" the book (9 Marks of a Healthy Church), and aims to implement the ideas in it. If even the original church (where the idea came from) is prone to corruption to this scale (covering up sexual abuses among other things), then why is any outside churches reading up on these ideas and implementing them? It would lead to further corruption, evil cover ups and painful abuses.

What is even more worrying is just how proud these pastors are of C. J. Mohaney. When they introduced C. J. Mohaney they poke fun at all the victims by saying: "In getting ready to introduce him (C.J. Mohaney) I decided I would Google to see if there was anything on the Internet about him." In affect they are saying they read all the mountains of evidence against C. J. Mohaney and yet they see nothing wrong. They proudly sin because the devil has blinded them. Even if they are not the Anti-Christ, this is an example of what Anti-Christ would do.

They are truly proud with their sins. If they can get away with this they can get away with anything in the future. They know it and that power over their congregation is too juicy to ignore.

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.co...or-c-j-mahaney-what-should-the-church-accept/

What I am doing right now is gathering information on the corruption of the 9 Marks Group, TGC, etc. And when I am ready I will talk to that pastor directly to tell him to reconsider. At the very least, the 9 Marks system cannot be implemented as it is. There needs to be checks and balances set up to ensure the evils that are already happening in 9 Marks Group, TGC, etc do not spill over to my close friend's church.

I am not a pastor. I am not directly educated by a bible school. All I know came from listening to many sermons and many hours of researching online. The devil is strong. I pray that God will help me to preach His righteousness. I pray for eyes to be opened to see the truth.

People like Phil Johnson are quite bitter and angry towards people in pain, if you read what they say about the anger. They really just want people to shut up and stop rocking the boat!

Finally, the cat is out of the bag and can’t be put back. The current leadership/shepherding/church discipline movement has failed to protect the church and perhaps it never could-because those men should have been servants; instead they chose to lord it over.

If such people or organizations choose to sue poorer people than they for telling the truth of how they’ve behaved, they aren’t just bad leaders, they are false teachers.

They will expose themselves to ruin spiritually if they continue to abuse the people of God. Maybe they don’t care about that, but we who blog and write and share on social media care very much for the state of the church and our own responsibilities before God.

 

[Goodbook]

oh I see. Well what happens when wolves infiltrate the church and are in leadership the sheep if they are wise will leave that church.

The sheep only listen to their shepherd eg. Jesus. If you are with a healthy church fellowship yourself, maybe your close friend can fellowship with you guys instead of this one.
I don't know why another church leader would implement a corrupt churches ideas, they may be a hireling/wolf in sheeps clothing and not a true believer. But as you don't belong to this church you cant suddenly rearrange their church into the biblical pattern if the leaders are taken over. I mean just beware that if YOU talk to this pastor you are walking into the lions den as it is. He's got no authority over you, and if he doesn't even know you its not likely he will listen.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Firstly, this is old news. Secondly, Mark Dever is not the bishop of C.J.s denomination. Thirdly, you make all of these comments with hindsight. Mark Dever didn't have all of the facts, so he was not condoning child abuse or domineering leaders.

 

[CCHIPSS]

oh I see. Well what happens when wolves infiltrate the church and are in leadership the sheep if they are wise will leave that church.

The sheep only listen to their shepherd eg. Jesus. If you are with a healthy church fellowship yourself, maybe your close friend can fellowship with you guys instead of this one.
I don't know why another church leader would implement a corrupt churches ideas, they may be a hireling/wolf in sheeps clothing and not a true believer. But as you don't belong to this church you cant suddenly rearrange their church into the biblical pattern if the leaders are taken over. I mean just beware that if YOU talk to this pastor you are walking into the lions den as it is. He's got no authority over you, and if he doesn't even know you its not likely he will listen.

I don't have a choice. This dear friend of mine was bring to faith through this church. And for that I too am grateful. And as you would have guessed she is really respecting and trusting toward her elders and pastors. However if their church are going to go down the path of 9 Marks, including going extremes on membership and discipline, I must try to talk to them about it now.

 

[CCHIPSS]

Firstly, this is old news. Secondly, Mark Dever is not the bishop of C.J.s denomination. Thirdly, you make all of these comments with hindsight. Mark Dever didn't have all of the facts, so he was not condoning child abuse or domineering leaders.

1) You are right that a lot of this information are from a few years ago. But if you are trying to claim this was all old, you are wrong.

Read the dates again. Mark Dever invited C. J. Mohaney to the "Together for the Gospel" conference last month, April 2016. So Mark Dever is still very actively supporting C. J. Mohaney. So this is recent news, not old news.

2) C. J. Mohaney didn't even had a denomination at one point, because C. J. Mohaney fled from his very own church to avoid discipline. Mark Dever broke his own "9 Marks" on "membership" by taking C. J. Monaney in.

Mark Dever is a close friend of C. J. Mohaney. But we Christians are to rebuke each other out of love. Mark Dever should have disciplined and excommunicated C. J. Mohaney from 9 Marks, as Mark Dever's own book said he should. But instead Mark Dever outright denied any wrong doing on C. J. Mohaney's part. In fact Mark Dever encourage C. J. Mohaney to continue to preach and continue to sell his books. So in effect Mark Dever is saying all the victims of sexual abuse in C. J. Mohaney's church are all liars and it is right to cover up sexual abuses.

3) Look at Mark Dever's decision just last month, April 2016 to include C. J. Mohaney in the T4G conference. What does that tell you about Mark Dever not having all the information? Nope he does have all the information. He either looked and ignored them, or chose to be willfully ignorant. He knows what is right be chose to walk in evil.

 

[Goodbook]

Why are you talking to them instead of your friend. I dont get it. You dont know them but you know your friend. What would you accomplish by talking to them. Its not as if you going to join their church.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Mark Dever should have disciplined and excommunicated C. J. Mohaney from 9 Marks

You can't excommunicate someone from 9 Marks. It's not a church.

So in effect Mark Dever is saying all the victims of sexual abuse in C. J. Mohaney's church are all liars and it is right to cover up sexual abuses.

Can you back this up?

Look at Mark Dever's decision just last month, April 2016 to include C. J. Mohaney in the T4G conference. What does that tell you about Mark Dever not having all the information? Nope he does have all the information. He either looked and ignored them, or chose to be willfully ignorant. He knows what is right be chose to walk in evil.

C.J. has not been convicted of any crimes that I'm aware of. He has also been under scantily from many people in leadership in various denominations, and I don't think that anyone found him guilty of wrongdoing.

 

[CCHIPSS]

Why are you talking to them instead of your friend. I dont get it. You dont know them but you know your friend. What would you accomplish by talking to them. Its not as if you going to join their church.

My friend told me she will be extra careful and be observant. She actually agrees with me that those abuses of authority are totally wrong.

Perhaps you are right. There is nothing to be accomplished by discussing this with them. So I will hold until I absolutely have to.

But if I ever back down from telling God's truth, or not rebuking other Christians out of fear, my faith will be in vein. Then I fear peer pressure over fearing God.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

My friend told me she will be extra careful and be observant. She actually agrees with me that those abuses of authority are totally wrong.

Perhaps you are right. There is nothing to be accomplished by discussing this with them. So I will hold until I absolutely have to.

But if I ever back down from telling God's truth, or not rebuking other Christians out of fear, my faith will be in vein. Then I fear peer pressure over fearing God.

If you did fear God, you would not be so quick to condemn people.

 

[CCHIPSS]

C.J. has not been convicted of any crimes that I'm aware of. He has also been under scantily from many people in leadership in various denominations, and I don't think that anyone found him guilty of wrongdoing.

Brother, we both know the court ruling doesn't apply to church discipline. There has been mountains of evidence against C. J. Mahaney, showing that he did indeed cover up child sexual abuses. These evidences stands even if the court never found C. J. Mahaney guilty. Why is the church ignoring all these evidences and the cries of the victims?

Look. If even just 1 case of child sexual abuse holds true, C. J. Mahaney is guilty. It only takes one. Because C. J. Mahaney did indeed cover up and "protected" sexual predators.

What you said was basically "Until the court find him guilty, our church also view him as not guilty. Innocent until proven guilty by court."

This sounds noble on paper. However we both (and all witnesses here) know that is not how church discipline operates.

Let's say a non-married single guy is having pre-marital sex with an adult woman. The church finds out. He just keep on denying it. The church even find photos of him doing the act. He claim they are all photo chopped. There are even multiple eye witnesses, and he say a group of people are framing him.

The church moves to discipline and excommunicate him.

Wait wait wait! The church can't!!!!

Why?

Because he is not found guilty of having pre-marital sex by the court. So you must first take him to court first.

And the judge will just look at you, and turn down the case. Why? Because pre-marital sex is not illegal in USA at all. There is no case here whatsoever. The court cannot possibly find him guilty. So by your definition, the court find him not guilt.

Then what? Two choices:

1) Let the guy walk free. Stay in church. Keep being a member. No need to discipline. (Big fat chance.)

2) The church will excommunicate that guy either way. Because according to the elders of the church there are significant and sufficient evidence that says this guy has committed adultery, even when the court obviously found him innocent.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. The church just disciplined someone without any court ruling. Even when the guy scream innocent the church disciplined him.

How am I going to refer this to C. J. Mahaney? Remember what you said: "Until the court find him guilty, our church also view him as not guilty. Innocent until proven guilty by court."

Well as you can see the church has always been disciplining people without any court ruling. God's laws are often different from government laws. Elders just gather together and decided whatever to discipline someone or not.

So tell me, why is 9 Marks Group (and their allies) hiding behind the court now? Why do they say "Until the court find C. J. Mahaney guilty, he is innocent." Their church has never operated this way. This alone is hypocrisy and favoritism.

Every single adulterous fornicators can now complain against their discipline. Why? Because they have never been found guilty by the state laws. So what right does the church has to discipline them without the court ruling?

Conclusion: By saying C. J. Mahaney must be find guilty in court before the church can discipline him, the church shoot themselves in the foot. Now every single time they discipline someone without court ruling, the church is showing hypocrisy and favoritism.

Mark Dever, by defending this one evil man of C. J. Mahaney, has nullified all those years of trying to build a righteous and holy church. Mark Dever and his elders has access to mountains of evidence against C. J. Mahaney, but yet choose to not do anything against C. J. Mahaney. They ruled C. J. Mahaney innocent, which in effect calling all the sexual abuse victims liars and accusers.

When victims calls for righteousness against the sinner and oppressor, the sinner and oppressor cry foul and say he is getting persecuted. Then Mark Dever stands with the sinner and oppressor against the victims. Woe to those who call evil as good and good as evil. (Isaiah 5:20)

You can only say you are getting persecuted when you are doing the righteous thing for God. You cannot get persecuted for doing crime. Then you are a criminal and it is right to punish you.

 

[CCHIPSS]

If you did fear God, you would not be so quick to condemn people.

And you just condemned me by saying I don't fear God, which directly meaning my faith is false. Thanks for proving my point brother.

Do you know that you are defending Neo-Calvinism, Christian Perfection? They love to condemn people more than pretty much anyone else. You can get excommunicated for missing Sunday school and not tithing enough % or amount. And here you are saying I am wrong to condemn someone for covering up multiple child sexual abuses?

Why can't you see the clear abuse of authority, hypocrisy and favoritism happening over and over again in 9 Marks Group and their neo-Calvinist allies?

 

[Goodbook]

1 timothy 5:1

Your faith is in vain only if you dont believe Jesus was raised from the dead and thus have no hope in the resurrection. We are to exhort believers, not rebuke them. If they are elder than you, entreat them as fathers.

If you dont belong to their church then leave alone. Your friend can make up her own mind. You cant lord your faith over hers, we are all accountable to master Jesus, not lording it over each other.

 

[CCHIPSS]

1 timothy 5:1

Your faith is in vain only if you dont believe Jesus was raised from the dead and thus have no hope in the resurrection. We are to exhort believers, not rebuke them. If they are elder than you, entreat them as fathers.

If you dont belong to their church then leave alone. Your friend can make up her own mind. You cant lord your faith over hers, we are all accountable to master Jesus, not lording it over each other.

Yeah I decided I won't go out of my way to rebuke them, unless I have to. But there are situations where I must speak up. I find that corruption always happens slowly at first. A little bit of half-truths here. A little bit of half-truths there. Then before anyone knows it the church is going in the opposite direction.

I did rebuke the teacher last time I went to their Sunday School classes based on 1 Peter 2 and 3.

1) The #1 goal of a Christian is to live a life of purity

Wrong! The #1 goal(s) of a Christian is to love God, love ourselves and love others. Then lovingly preach the gospel to non-believers and mentor young believers. We stop sinning because it hurts God, hurt ourselves and hurt others. We stop sinning because of love, not because of purity's sake. And we preach the gospel to the worst of sinners out of love. And we mentor each other out of love. Everything we do must be out of love. (1 Corinthians 16:14)

When we interpret the bible there often comes a crossroad. One leads to a possible error toward love. The other leads to a possible error toward judgement. If this happen, may we always choose to error on the side of love. Love is always priority over judgement and purity.

2) Christ suffered and were persecuted, and he now sit on the most high place. Similarly Christians will be lifted to a high place in heaven because they suffered and were persecuted.

Wrong! The greatest in heaven must be the most humble servant on earth. We get treasures in heaven not from persecution and suffering, but by loving others and serving them. Wash the feet of those below you. (Mark 9:33-37)(Matthew 25:31-46) (John 13:12-17)

3) We might get persecuted. But we should be comforted by the fact that judgement is coming and God will judge and destroy those that persecuted us.

Wrong! Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.(1 Corinthians 13:6) We are commended to love our enemies. We must do everything we can to give even the worst of sinners a chance to repent and accept Christ and their savior. If after all our efforts they still reject Jesus, yes there is a judgement coming. Our love and care for them will be like putting burning coal on their head. (Romans 12:20) But we must not rejoice in their destruction! We must feel sorry for the darkness that blinded them, love them, pray for them and genuinely care about their eternal well being.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And you just condemned me by saying I don't fear God, which directly meaning my faith is false. Thanks for proving my point brother.

Do you know that you are defending Neo-Calvinism, Christian Perfection? They love to condemn people more than pretty much anyone else. You can get excommunicated for missing Sunday school and not tithing enough % or amount. And here you are saying I am wrong to condemn someone for covering up multiple child sexual abuses?

Why can't you see the clear abuse of authority, hypocrisy and favoritism happening over and over again in 9 Marks Group and their neo-Calvinist allies?

Where have my words been condemnatory? I'm simply pointing out that you are not walking in line with the gospel. No one saved by grace, with a good understanding of his own sin, is quick to condemn people, as he understands that he condemns himself at the same time.

 

[CCHIPSS]

1) Where have my words been condemnatory?

2) I'm simply pointing out that you are not walking in line with the gospel.

3) No one saved by grace, with a good understanding of his own sin, is quick to condemn people, as he understands that he condemns himself at the same time.

1) You said I do not fear God. And this is not condemnatory?

2) You made it sound like that "not walking in line with the gospel" is not a big deal. But since you support neo-Calvinists, everyone should pay attention that this is said in the context of a neo-Calvinist church.

If I am "not walking in line with the gospel", and I do not repent, I would be excommunicated from a neo-Calvinist church.

So in effect you are saying if you are the pastor and I am a member, you would be excommunicating me.

3) Firstly, let me disagree that I was "quick" to condemn. I did a lot of research on the 9 Marks Group, because this directly affects my close friend.

Read again. You would be excommunicating me because I am being judgmental/condemning, when I say that the church should discipline the non-repenting C. J. Mahaney because he covered up child sexual abuses.

So you would be letting the non-repenting sinners walk free, while excommunicating those that points out that the church needs to discipline a non-repenting sinner.

Even non-believers, those outside of our faith, do not tolerate a cover up of child sexual abuses. Even they know it is evil and wrong! (1 Corinthians 5:1-2)

If the church wants to help a criminal, first sent him to prison and then do prison ministry. Why is the church covering up for a criminal to keep him away from prison?

And here you are saying "No one saved by grace, with a good understanding of his own sin, is quick to condemn people, as he understands that he condemns himself at the same time." So people do not have to right to point out that a non-repenting sinner need to repent or be disciplined? And if these people point that out they get excommunicated?

The people are right to say that there is a Insider Elite Class (IEC) and an Outsider Peasants Class (OPC) in these neo-Calvinist churches. The IEC can sin all they want without repentance and the church give them all the patience, grace and mercy. Meanwhile if anyone from OPC dare to point out the un-repented sin of someone from IEC, the people in OPC gets excommunicated quickly for being "judgmental" and "condemning" with no patience, no grace and no mercy.

 

[CCHIPSS]

It might sound like that I am very against church discipline. Actually I am not. I am actually supportive of church discipline, as long as it is keep in check to prevent abuse of power and authority.

A few key facts and possibility to consider:

i) Church elders and pastors (I will just call them all elders to make it easier) might all be wrong, and that member is actually right.

ii) Church elders might have a personal vendetta against a member. Alternatively they might really like and favor someone. There might also be conflict-of-interests or power struggles that prevent fair decisions.

iii) Church elders might be following man-made laws, traditions and personal beliefs instead of the word of God.

iv) Jesus' judgement will come in the future. But right now he commend us to love even our worst enemies. God has always been very patient to the worst of sinners. So is the church giving enough love, patience, grace and mercy?

As for the member in question, we must ask:

v) Is he actually proud of his sin? This only means one thing: This member is actively sinning and telling everyone else in church that this sin is not even a sin. (consider points i and iii above.)

vi) Is he in agreement that his sin is a sin? This means he knows he is sinning, but he is addicted (or any other reason) and he cannot stop right now. Such members will not harm the church by saying a sin is not a sin. He admits a sin is a sin, but he will continue to sin. Should the church offer him help and patience instead of disciplining him? (consider point iv above)

vii) Who this member say hates him? Which elder this member say won't be a fair judge? (consider point ii above)

viii) Is this member able to point to the bible to support his point of view? Is he able to gather up a sizable amount of Christians that supports his point of view? If there are valid Christian support for his view, from both the bible and other Christians, then why is the church elders so certain that they are in the right? (consider points i and iii above.)

So in conclusion what checks are need to discipline and excommunicate someone?

i) Before discipline someone, the church elders must ask if they are wrong. Even if there is just a 1% chance, they must take that into account and pray to God wisdom.

They must also seek understanding of that member. Why is that member thinking like this in his situation? What situations are there that made this case unique? Never bush him off just as another sinner.

ii) Who stands to gain from this member's removal? Who never liked this member? Consider this seriously. The elders must do everything they can to avoid conflict of interests.

On the other hand who stands to lose from the removal of this member? Who really likes this member? Would this cause the elders to be overly-lenient toward this member?

iii) This is another serious issue. Firstly before anything else we must determine the seriousness of the issue. Some issues are too small to warrant discipline and excommunication. For example swearing. Are we really going to discipline and excommunicate everyone that swears?

Churches often have man made laws and traditions, such as no drinking allowed. Others are like you must tithe 10% or you must attend Sunday schools. None of these are grounds for discipline and excommunication. Outside the bible the church have no power.

Consider that God himself told Peter to eat unclean meat. What does that tell us about the "need" to follow the old testament laws word for word? Should we still stone to death our stubborn sons and daughters? (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

Giving money away without love is meaningless. Tell that member to keep his money until he learn how to donate out of love. God do not even want that guys's money otherwise. (1 Corinthians 13:3)

Now I by no mean is saying here that sins are no longer sins. Sins will always be sins. But because Jesus died for sinners, sinning no longer means rejection from God. Jesus welcomes any sinners who wants to be with Jesus, including tax collectors. As such living a sinful life (e.g. greedy, selfish, proud and jealous) in humbleness are not grounds for excommunication. All "good" Christians are sinners living in humbleness, even being humble of our pride. It is being proud of one's sins (e.g. It is great that I am jealous. And I believe everyone should be jealous.) that is a serious concern.

We are all works in progress. God is patient with us. So the church must be patient with its members. (More on this on point iv.)

And not all laws are black and white. There are many grey laws. For example abortion was never talked about directly in the bible. Yes we can pick verses out and it indicates that abortion is not allowed. But why did God leave this grey? I believe God leaves some laws grey so the church can decide depending on a particular situation.

I myself don't think that abortion should be allowed except in the most extreme situations. However I disagree that the bible 100% bans abortion. I believe it depends on that particular situation.

However even if the church don't think abortion should be allowed in her case, the church shouldn't excommunicate her. She can stay as long as she never boost about her abortion. Abandoning her will not help her. The church must help her even more than before.

It goes the same with things like divorce. A divorcee needs even more help from the church than before. Do not abandon them, as long as they do not boast about their divorce.

Remember, Jesus didn't abandon Peter when Peter denied Jesus 3 times. What sin can be worst than denying the Son of God 3 times? Yet Jesus never abandon sinners who are humble, but instead help them with grace and mercy. Jesus is only against the proud sinners that don't think they need any help from Jesus.

iv) As long as that member, having admitted that he is sinning, is not leading other members astray, the church must be extremely patient for any sin. A member is dating a non-Christian? A member is addicted to alcohol? Talk to him, then pray for him and be patient. These members needs even more help than others. Do not abandon them. Do not pressure them to change immediately, since God is also patient with us. Instead offer them help while they are walking in sin and pray that they will accept the help eventually.

v) Of the 8 points, this is the only one that supports the biblical view of excommunication. This member refuse to accept that his actions are even sins. The elders have carefully considered all 8 points and it become clear that this was indeed a sin according to the bible. That member is unable to find biblical support and other Christians (even those outside of this church) to support his view in his particular situation. So pretty much every Christian will say he is indeed sinning. And he cannot find any ground that say he is getting biased against. Yet he proudly sins and tries to tell everyone else that this sin is not even a sin.

In this extreme situation, the church have to excommunicate that member to avoid confusion of the bible. But the church must honestly consider all 8 points before jumping to this conclusion.

vi) In my church we have a exotic image addiction help group. They meet once a week in a non-pressure setting. It is hoped that slowly they will be able to be free of their addiction.

I believe this is the way churches should go. Instead of condemning sinners, why not help the sinners? Offer them help so they are encourages to come clean and admit to their sins. If the church only condemns, the members will hide all their sins and never confess to anyone.

vii) Pay special attention to who this member say hates him or have a conflict of interest with him. Do not just bush him off. Maybe he is telling the truth. Careful investigate. Do not fall into favoritism bias and "old boys club" mentality.

viii) There are often multiple valid ways to read the bible. It is possible to have two opposing views on a certain topic, and they are both valid. The elders might outnumber that member (it is just him), but that doesn't necessarily mean the elders are right. The pharisees certainly outnumbered Jesus, but Jesus was right and pharisees was wrong. Do not fall into group think. And do not just assume the more numerous side is correct. Careful investigate the claims and this particular situation, always asking God for wisdom.

Also encourage that member to find other Christians to defend his point of view. If he likes he can even go to other churches and talk to other pastors outside. If he managed to gather enough support, it is in turn the elders who must take a careful look at themselves. Why are they so certain that they are absolutely right? And is this issue really serious enough to cause an excommunication?

Conclusion:

Let all that we do be done in love for God, love for others and love for ourselves. It is the Greatest Commandment. And let our knowledge and experience be used to make disciples of all nations. This is the Great Commission.