rockytopva

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The most faith I have seen is from a Presbyterian by the name of John Geddie. He went to an island chain in the South Pacific where there were no Christians in the midst of an heathenistic society where forgiveness was not in the vocabulary and canibalism was practiced... When he got through with that island it was said...

"When I came to this land there was no man of litcht here, but when I left this land there was no man of darkness in it." -Dr. John Geddie
“When he landed in 1848 there were no Christians here, and when He left in 1872 there were no heathen." - Tribute to Dr. John Geddie

And I have done a video tribute on the man...

 
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Geralt

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'Faith' is proportional to your 'need', specifically a state or condition of total helplessness. it is NOT A MEASUREMENT of (e.g. being active in church, or knowing a lot about God, bible study, etc). faith is 'response' to a ' helpless personal need'.

Faith is born out of our helplessness and, like Peter, cries out 'Lord, save me' (Mt14:30). your sense of helplessness always precedes faith.

this is the biblical concept. the definition changed throughout history as the church got institutionalized more and more and 'faith' generalized being used by other religions as well in their own versions of god(s).

but 'faith' is always at the personal level, and all the bible characters praised for their faith was in the backdrop of a very dire situation. and yes, you can include the thief on the cross and all the characters mentioned in Heb 11.

that is why simply saying the prayer to accept christ and received him by 'faith' in church services makes no sense if the person has no dire need, an understanding of one's helplessness from sin and his/her need for God to save him/her. it is not genuine. If there is no helpless need, there can be no response of faith=> to totally depend on God to help you in your helplessness.
 
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Truly1999

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After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word, of course).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Edit to rephrase the question.

Which requires more faith?
I try not to compare the amount of faith which has been given to me with the amount of faith which has been given to others. But I do know that even if my faith is the size of a mustard seed I can move mountains in the name of Jesus Christ.

In my experience I have heard God speak to me both through His Word and from Him directly, as well as receiving guidance, comfort and direction through the Holy Spirit of God. But it has come in stages over 30 years or more - and God continues to reveal more of Himself to me as I follow His Son along the straight and narrow path which leads to the Gates of Heaven. In the first instance, I heard the gospel preached, read the pocket New Testament given to me, prayed the Sinner's Prayer, and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. I was 10 years old, but the opportunity wasn't given to me to follow up and nurture my faith at the time; no Sunday School, no church, no Christian family. However, the seed had been sown and over a period of 5 years, roots were established. At the age of 15, in a dark and lonely place, I wept and cried out in desperation - I didn't know why or to whom I was crying. But, a bright light shone down from above, and I felt my whole body being held - not a hug from another person, but every fibre was held - and absolute and total peace flooded my mind and every part of my body. I heard a soft male voice say, "Follow Jesus." I was so excited that somebody had replied to my cry, that there was someone who knew my pain so precisely - someone who could help me. I knew it was real, and I rushed to my local Church a few days later on the Sunday and gave my life to Jesus. On that day, I began living a new life.

This was the only time when I heard a voice from Heaven, but the Holy Spirit has helped me every day since and continues to help me.

It's not for me to question whether someone has more faith or less faith than me simply because they have never heard the voice of God.
 
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tiglathpileser

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You seem to be offended.
That was not my intention.
I only explain why these things raise my eyebrows and that i could be wrong, and how different parts of the body work very differently.

NDE is Near Death Experience

Once again your assessment is wrong. I am too old, too wise and seen too much to get offended anymore.

One thing I try not to do (not very well) is assume that the person I am replying to knows NOTHING. When someone gives the impression that they have a better handle on things even though they do not know the person and have never met them, when the original writer has been friends for 10 years to quote an example, I may be wrong but I see a person who is unteachable and insecure outside of the little he does know.

Instead of admitting they are deficient in their knowledge in this particular area (without sarcasm) and having an open mind and willingness to learn without judgment on the other persons experience, they would progress their christianity a lot quicker.

I am blessed because I am autistic, and autistic people always want to know as they have a heightened sense of curiosity so when something new comes along the response is "hey what's all this about. I will have to find out." Not......your wrong, your wrong, your wrong. They might say you are wrong after a few weeks, a few months or a few years after they have left no stone unturned but not until them.

My ability to comment on many things is zilch because I have never investigated things and I don't like to open my mouth and show that I am totally ignorant about what I am saying. James 1:19 So that, my beloved brothers, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.
 
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Hieronymus

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Once again your assessment is wrong. I am too old, too wise and seen too much to get offended anymore.
Are you sure?

========= never mind the rest, sorry i got a bit angry =========
 
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tiglathpileser

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In another thread on this topic in which I posted recently, I tried to get one charismatic poster to tell me how he discerned between real and counterfeit demonstrations of the gift of tongues, and prophecy, and healing. These are the gifts that are most frequently shown to have been counterfeited. The charismatic poster simply responded by explaining there is no need to discern in this area. All glossolalia, prophecies, and healings must be of the Spirit. And so there was no means he had in place to tell the fake from the real. As far as I'm concerned, this is a sure way to find yourself deceived. Selah.

judging by all the posts of yours that I have read, it seems and I could be wrong that you are on a crusade to deny the supernatural, even that which is of God. I have noticed that you and many of the others pick the extreme to prove that everything else that is not extreme is wrong.

I want to ask you how you deal with this one.......

At our churches (Charismatic Brethren) first national conference I was on the leadership team. At the end of meetings we always offered the opportunity for prayer. At the end of one evening meeting I joined the rest of the leadership to prayer for those who had come forward for prayer. I stopped by a young man and without any prompting he said to me "I am a homosexual and I don't want to be."

As I had no knowledge of this way of life, I said I would get back to him. I consulted with more senior leadership and asked for someone to take over. Next morning they said they felt I should be the one to deal with it. I protested but to no avail. They were convinced I was the right person.

Armed with my bible and what little faith I did have, I met up with the young man again and did my best. I shared scripture with him and asked him "do you want to be delivered from homosexuality." With tears in his eyes he said "Yes."

I told him to sit still and do nothing. I would take over from here. I laid hands on him and in the Name of Jesus I commanded the spirit of homosexuality to leave him. He screamed out, fell on a heap on the floor and cried and cried. I kept my hands on him and prayed him through the experience.

The next day here was a young man who was beaming all over his face. He knew he had been delivered. Several months later he paid a visits to the church with a young lady (his girlfriend). As pretty as they come. About a year later he made another visit with his wife (same girl). The last time I saw them they introduced me to their baby son.
 
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tiglathpileser

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Are you sure?

Since you're autistic and all, shouldn't you make an effort to verify what someone means, in stead of doing ambiguous projections, which may seem real in your mind?
I mean, you're old and wise enough, right?

There you go again with the sarcasm and judgment. You just don't get it do you.
 
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faroukfarouk

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How do you measure faith? All things aren't as they appear, or proclaimed.
At the of 2 Peter 3, the Apostle says: 'Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ'.

God sees our hearts, but we should never be satisfied with the level of faith that we have; there is always scope to say: 'Lord, increase our faith' (Luke 17.5).
 
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tiglathpileser

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I know of a similar incidence where a friends mother was coerced this way. Amusingly a member of the Church stood up and gave a translation! Needless to say it resulted in skepticism.

I agree with your statement about lack of decernment and I would like to hi-light a parallel situation. In my church there is a minority group who do 'healing'. They hold there hand out and supposedly beam energy into the recipient ( I am not talking about raising hands or anything like that). Sometimes they just touch and the recipient falls over. These people say it is their gift from God.

The parallel; something I have seen in martial arts training. I am in the camp that holds to off balancing your opponent and using their momentum for your own advantage. There is a 'mystic' branch that claim to use 'ki' ( or 'Chi') energy and the practice is the same as the charismatic 'gifts'. Google 'Dillman Karate' and you can see what I mean.

I believe all of it is deception: The proponent deluding themselves. The followers lacking discernment. In both the martial arts and charismatic world.

It may be deception but is that the best you can do to judge the work of God everywhere that does not fit in with your theology?

From my research into the subject some of which I have been involved in and some which I seen with my own eyes, I can give you a hundred examples of God at work that are not deception. Do you really expect me to say I can't accept any of it as valid because you come up with a few isolated examples which are not typical.
 
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tiglathpileser

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Indeed, you assume i know nothing, trying otherwise clearly fails. Maybe ifyou actually looked and read what that person wrote, and verify what the person means, we could have a meaningful conversation.
But no...
You're just offended by my questions.

You assume things about me for which you have no basis, you seem to be unable to read comprehensively.
You seem to proud to verify.
You behave like an insulted adolescent.

You're now on my ignore list.
Have a nice day.

Once more sarcasm and arrogance. And by the way it is "TOO proud" not "TO proud." and as I said but I guess you don't want to know I don't get offended.
 
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aiki

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judging by all the posts of yours that I have read, it seems and I could be wrong that you are on a crusade to deny the supernatural, even that which is of God. I have noticed that you and many of the others pick the extreme to prove that everything else that is not extreme is wrong.

Well, what seems to be is not actually what is. As I noted in my last post, God can do - and does - miraculous things. Growing up the son of a Baptist pastor I saw the supernatural provision of God many times. I still see such provision today. My great concern, however, as I carefully explained in my last post, is the enormous lack among many charismatics of any standard by which to test the truth of the experiences of God people claim are of and from Him. In all of your last post to me you don't address this concern even the tiniest bit. That says something, I think.

The story you shared is interesting but what about it do you want me to deal with?

You object to my use of extremes in making my points, but the few religious (and charismatic) charlatans I mentioned are part of a large group of false teachers that have taken firm root among charismatic believers. They aren't, within the charismatic portion of the spectrum of evangelical Christianity, extreme, but actually quite common. And this is in large part because of the huge lack of discernment evident in this community that I outlined in my last post.

Selah.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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In another thread on this topic in which I posted recently, I tried to get one charismatic poster to tell me how he discerned between real and counterfeit demonstrations of the gift of tongues, and prophecy, and healing. These are the gifts that are most frequently shown to have been counterfeited. The charismatic poster simply responded by explaining there is no need to discern in this area. All glossolalia, prophecies, and healings must be of the Spirit. And so there was no means he had in place to tell the fake from the real. As far as I'm concerned, this is a sure way to find yourself deceived.

A non-Christian friend of mine was invited to a Christian ladies weekend event out at a farm. They spent an entire Saturday on the second floor of a renovated barn enjoying fellowship with one another. At the end of afternoon just before the ladies were to return home, the door to the room in which the ladies were gathered was closed - and locked. The event leader then informed all the ladies that no one would leave the room until everyone had spoken in tongues. She thought this would be an exciting and emotional way to end the day but to my friend who was not a believer and never had - nor wished to - speak in tongues, this was a nightmarish idea. My friend maneuvered to be the very last of the ladies to speak in tongues, hoping some way to escape the situation would present itself before it was her turn. When finally everyone had spoken in tongues but her, my friend decided to make up a bunch of nonsense speech and hope it would pass muster. She "spoke in tongues" for about ten seconds and all the ladies were thrilled. Not one of them had the slightest doubt my friend's "tongue" was genuinely a sign of the Spirit. This experience horrified my friend on a number of levels and she has remained deeply cynical and skeptical toward Christianity ever since.

The lack of discernment among charismatics is sometimes quite shocking! Ever heard of Todd Bentley and his kick-you-in-the-face healing? He'll not only slap, punch, or kick you into a healing but he has claimed to have raised dozens of people from the dead! Morbidly curious about this guy, my brother took in one of Todd's meetings where he claimed he was only half-filled with the power of God (he could feel the power had only reached his waist) and needed more money from the audience in order to be entirely filled and capable of raising someone from the dead. And the money flowed in!

This profound lack of spiritual discernment is my biggest beef with the charismatic folk. God can and does act miraculously. But the devil is able to mimic the miraculous. Remember Jannes and Jambres? (Ex. 7:8-13; 2Ti. 3:8) Remember, too, Paul's warning?

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.


As soon as people start claiming God did this or that and are not required to prove what they claim is truly of God, then falsehood and deception soon follows. This has been demonstrated again and again by the rise to popularity of religious charlatans like Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Dayna Muldoon, Beth Moore, and on and on. What is perhaps strangest of all is that even when these people are shown to be in error doctrinally, and false in their prophecies, and fake in their healings, they are still supported by frenzied crowds of people hungry for a show. Apparently, the lack of discernment runs very deep among those who embrace this sort of "experience of God."

Selah.
What makes you think that mistreatment from those who claim to be teachers is confined to a certain denom ... that outlandish blanket accusation flies in the face of logic... :sigh:
I see it's time to unsubscribe
 
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jimmyjimmy

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judging by all the posts of yours that I have read, it seems and I could be wrong that you are on a crusade to deny the supernatural, even that which is of God. I have noticed that you and many of the others pick the extreme to prove that everything else that is not extreme is wrong.

I want to ask you how you deal with this one.......

At our churches (Charismatic Brethren) first national conference I was on the leadership team. At the end of meetings we always offered the opportunity for prayer. At the end of one evening meeting I joined the rest of the leadership to prayer for those who had come forward for prayer. I stopped by a young man and without any prompting he said to me "I am a homosexual and I don't want to be."

As I had no knowledge of this way of life, I said I would get back to him. I consulted with more senior leadership and asked for someone to take over. Next morning they said they felt I should be the one to deal with it. I protested but to no avail. They were convinced I was the right person.

Armed with my bible and what little faith I did have, I met up with the young man again and did my best. I shared scripture with him and asked him "do you want to be delivered from homosexuality." With tears in his eyes he said "Yes."

I told him to sit still and do nothing. I would take over from here. I laid hands on him and in the Name of Jesus I commanded the spirit of homosexuality to leave him. He screamed out, fell on a heap on the floor and cried and cried. I kept my hands on him and prayed him through the experience.

The next day here was a young man who was beaming all over his face. He knew he had been delivered. Several months later he paid a visits to the church with a young lady (his girlfriend). As pretty as they come. About a year later he made another visit with his wife (same girl). The last time I saw them they introduced me to their baby son.

Putting forth a subjective experience as theological argument is not helpful; however, it is a way for you to attempt to win an argument because the subjective can't be argued against. Oh, I have a very good idea of what happened with that young man. I have an argument, but that's not my point. My point is, if scripture is not the agreed upon objective basis for truth, all debate will be fruitless.

9922154119cceea821188fbc11c43cf6.jpg
 
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Stephen Kendall

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After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word, of course).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Edit to rephrase the question.

Which requires more faith?
The Devil knows for sure, but doesn't have any faith in Christ? One who follows Jesus without wonders or signs has a greater faith, I believe. I seem to brag about having many wonders and signs, but this only seems to shame me. I would rank my faith low because of my disobedience of God's will through Jesus' commands & teachings. Could I have faith in Christ without wonders or signs? It seems that I always believed in God and accepted Jesus. It also seems better for me, if I didn't even have them, since I would still believe in Jesus, just not as guilty for going so wrong in life? I would think that faith is a measure of obedience and not of knowledge. Yet, knowledge of God, but with acceptance of him and love of him through Jesus, is faith. Obeying Jesus is faith. If the Devil obeyed Jesus, then he would be having faith? No, unless the Devil did it on his own, loved God and repented to him. I hit the pits of shame and sin. I was ashamed and hated sin. I repented. I guard my soul from this scourge in life to conquer sin. I don't trust in myself, only in Jesus alone. This is how I think, breathe and live. I don't dare say I am free of sin, just that when the days of not sinning those terrible sins that I did are over, I hope to be his alone. My faith is in Jesus alone. Many don't like my stand in this way, but I don't trust myself, any Christian, church, denomination, creed, theology or preacher. I just accept Jesus and try to be holy and sinless from my old terrible sins. I am not religious, just accepting what Jesus has promised and spoken and just believe him, follow him and obey him alone. Is my faith stronger alone with Jesus? I love Christians and love to spend time with them, but my salvation is through following Christ, alone, never through religious practices, politics of the churches, religious leaders, theologies or the other man attributed things. I keep the words, teachings & commands of Jesus the son of our Father in Heaven in my mind, heart & soul, contemplating on them and teaching them to others. I accept and trust Jesus, not religious things through man or his institutions. I can't believe in or teach others what I don't know to be true. Jesus I have faith in and know to be true. He is all that I know and believe in. People like me are readily condemned by religious people with more religiousness and less faith in Jesus alone.
 
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Rick Otto

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How much faith in God one has is not a rating of a person's worth in God's eyes. It is a description of that person's relationship with God. We all have varying degrees of faith for different things. I might have faith that God will heal someone when I pray, but not have as much faith that he will provide me with a job if I relocate. Which is harder to believe? It depends on what your experiences with God have been.

We can influence what God does regarding our faith, but in the end God is the one who chooses to grant faith or not. Scripture calls it a gift, which means that no matter what we do, we don't deserve it. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Much serious damage has been done to people who have been told they didn't/don't have enough faith. It is made to sound like something (sometimes a tragedy) was their fault, when in fact it may have had nothing whatsoever to do with their faith.

Believe what God said and let it influence your behavior, then you will be doing all you can for perfecting your faith. Your relationship with God will deepen, because having nervously chosen to believe God, you will see (eventually) that he was faithful. The more you experience this pattern, the more faith in God you will have for things you haven't experienced.

It is possible to get to the point in your relationship with God that he will give you whatever you ask for. (John 14:13, 15:7, 15:16, 16:23, and others) That he would do this is not a statement of his Santa Claus-like nature, but a statement of how much unity you have with him. You won't be asking for things that you can tell are not his will. Instead you will, more and more, recognize that God is already taking care of you in the best ways possible (we are greatly limited in our ability to receive from God [Malachi 3:10b]).

Being fully devoted to Jesus Christ is the best you can do to go in that direction, and are going to have to accept that there are consequences to thousands of years of worldwide sin that God isn't just going to make go away.
Oh my! Glory Hallelujah! Amen, brother.
And be careful what you ask for. God has a sense of humor.
When I was trying to decide what to for a day job, I went right to him with it of course, and put my worst foot forward. I told him I wanted to be a Graphic Artist... but I thought I would be sly, and instead of adding "who is rich and famous", I said, "whose work is seen all over the country". I did some design on mall signs that were shipped out to 3 or 4 states from '85 to '95 and now I work in production in a non-electric shop making fleet graphics for trucks and railroad cars. My Union Pacific logos are seen all over the country, lol!

...But I have to admit my personal life is vastly richer than many of my acquaintances.
 
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