LoveofTruth said: There is no way of avoiding works, the works of God for us and in us as we abide in him and walk in him through faith.
I never implied that genuine believers avoid works altogether. Once again, all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (
Matthew 13:23) Now in
James 2:14, we read of one who
says/claims he has faith but has no works (to
evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a
bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can
that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an
empty profession of faith/dead faith.
would you say that we are not saved by God's works?. Scripture clearly says we are.
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works. (
Romans 3:24-28) You seem determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works (
Ephesians 2:8,
9) then call it God's works.
Scripture also says we are saved, are being saved and shall be saved as we continue unto the end and overcome through faith unto the end.
There are 3 tenses to salvation and continuing to the end confirms authentic faith.
1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification).
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing or progressive sanctification).
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).
If a person says they are saved by faith and do not have the grace of God working in them Gods Spirit giving them life and direction and making them perfect unto every good work, then their faith is void.
We read about those who
say/claim (key word) they have faith, but they have
no works to
evidence their claim. That's what we would call a
bare profession of faith. (
James 2:14-24)
Don't get me wrong, I am not speaking quickly here. I have worked through this issue for many years over 40 and thee is no way a believer can say they do not need Gods works in them to be saved.
If we are truly saved, then we will produce works (some more than others) and God will work in us to will and to do for His good pleasure. Also, God finishes what He started. (
Philippians 1:6)
Yet, some assume (wrongly) that as soon as they make a profession and say they have faith that thats all it is. But according to scripture and traditional christianity from the beginning they must be born again and have God working in them. This is when by faith Christ dwells in the heart. So if a man has faith then he has Christ formed n him, and later he becomes hardened through the deceitfulness of sin and has an evil heart of unbelief and departs from the living God, can he still say he is in the faith and with God?
There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together ALL claiming to be genuine Christians in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.
No consider this written to believers in Christ and the writer includes himself in this warning
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14 KJV)
Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the
rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said,
'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers.
Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of
UNBELIEF. That is the
heart of the issue.
*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time
delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Did you see that?
DID NOT BELIEVE.
It makes sense that writer of Hebrews would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can the writer avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? The writer knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue.
Those who continue in the faith demonstrate they are partakers of Christ.
In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we
have become partakers of Christ,
(demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house -
whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.
*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather -
"you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.
What about the faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later?
Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
We see genuine believers and make believers mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. Hence, the warnings.
Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-2; 6:8-9; 10:39; 12:15 etc..
I know some may try some "sugar coated double talk" to avoid this and say they are not believers etc. But this would be error as the text clearly says they are believers.
Just because a letter is addressed to believers does not mean that EVERYONE in these professing groups of believers are genuine believers as we already have seen in (Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-2; 6:8-9; 10:39; 12:15). 1 John 2 is addressed to "my little children" (believers) yet by the time we get down to verse 19, we read -
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Now are we to assume that those who went out from us but were not of us are genuine believers because the letter is addressed to believers? Of course not.
So, it is clear that a person does not get saved by his own works or trying to keep the law, and he does not lose that salvation and depart from the living God by works , but rather by grace are we saved through faith and we can depart through an devil heart of unbelief having been hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Faith and unbelief is the issue. Some will try hard to make what I say fit into some works of man salvation, I have never said that.
Authentic faith does not depart. Shallow, temporary faith that is not rooted in a regenerate heart may depart though. If you want to believe that a genuine believer can depart from God and lose their salvation, then be my guest, but you will never convince me. It's unfathomable to me.
And this is not sugar-coated double talk, but the clear scripture teaching. There are many verses ai could show. For example, heres one more section.
I've heard all the alleged proof texts before. I grew up in a false religion that taught salvation by works and strongly opposed OSAS. I have come to discover that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major
red flag for me. I got off that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security upon my conversion when I left that false religion, and I will NEVER get back on it and never will.
In Galatians three Paul said they began in the spirit, meaning they were saved by Christ through faith and had Christ formed in them. Then he stood n doubt of them because they went back to the flesh and law and Christ would profit them nothing.. We read,This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit [meaning they were saved] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain?" (Galatians 3:2,3 KJV)
Then he said to them
"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, [this shows that they once had Christ in them and went away and needed to be born again again, and have Christ formed in them through faith, for Christ dwells in our heart by faith] 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. " ( Galatians 4:19,20 KJV)
To stand in doubt of them does not sound like he gives them a assurance of salvation or eternal security doctrine. They had to repent and come back to the faith and have Christ formed in them again.
He even speaks of this further when he says,
““Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing...Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”" ( Galatians 5:2,4 KJV)
You can't fall from grace unless you were once in grace. And remember we are saved by grace, so to fall from grace is to fall from that salvation and have Christ profit us nothing. What profit does Christ give us? salvation and life eternal in him, for starters.
The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace,"
but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort.
The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.
If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said -
I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, as for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Strong rebuke.
Those who "permanently" fall away fit 1 John 2:19. Again, Paul did not say these Galatians lost their salvation and it's all over for them. When Jesus was arrested, the 11 remaining disciples were said to "fall away" in Matthew 26:31-35. Did they lose their salvation? Please show me just one verse in the Bible that specifically says, "lost salvation." I'll be waiting.
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I look forward to developing a friendship with you.
