If God made us, why do humans need to be taught by other humans how to hear God?

Where does it say that the only way to hear God speaking is when another human has taught you? Doesn’t the Bible say we should pray from our closet? Didn’t God speak to Daniel in a dream? To Mary through a visit from an angel! To the children at Fatima and Bernadette at Lourdes through visions of his Mother? Doesn’t it say your children will dream dreams and speak prophecies? Didn’t he Speak to Moses from a bush? Hearing God’s voice is about faith. One can have faith if they are deaf or blind. The Bible tells us to be still. This is the way to hear God. Then you can check to see if you are delusional. Ask your spiritual director or read God’s word. There are endless ways to Hear God. Get to know the lives of the Saints.

AetheriusLamia said:

That's fine for general life principles, but I'm suffering not knowing why God allowed certain atrocities to happen, why He's refusing to heal, etc. -- specific answer to specific questions.

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I’m very sorry you are suffering. I don’t know the answer to your question specifically. I really do believe though that if you continue to go to God in prayer he will answer you. Maybe not today, or anytime soon. But the Holy Spirit could also bring you an answer. Jesus promised us that when he went to the Father, a helper, comforter would come. Please do not lose heart.

AetheriusLamia said:

-- Pacwa, M (2011). How to Listen When God is Speaking. Frederick, MD: The Word Among Us Press. p. 11.

Why is this not practically a stand-alone 'proof by contradiction' argument? It needs only a little fleshing out:

1. If God created us for relationship with Him and intends to speak to us, he would give us all the intrinsic ability to hear Him, not something to be learned by other humans.
2. He has not done so.
3. Thus God either did not create us for relationship with Him or doesn't intend to speak to us.

Why would God make our ability to hear Him dependent on humans teaching other humans?

To 'have good works' for us to do? Are we really to believe God created some people whose purpose is to get others to listen to Him? How is that compatible with "God's love for all mankind" if people go to hell if they are not taught to listen to Him? and compatible with God's wisdom as there seems to be far fewer teachers available than those who need to learn.

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How did you come to the conclusion that we were made by God for "relationship" with Him? Without explaining and defining in exact denotative force what a "relationship" with God would entail, your first premise in your deduction fails, and your second also fails since it is dependent on the content of the first.

So, no. Sorry. Your argument might seem valid, but it's definitely not sound.

When I find myself getting hung up on why God allows things or critique how He operates, I find it helpful to reflect on God's response to Job when he was complaining:

Job 40:1-8 NIV

"The Lord said to Job:

"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? Let him who accuses God answer Him!"

Then Job answered Him:

"I am unworthy, how can I reply to You? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once but I have no answer - twice but I will say no more."

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

"Brace yourself like a man; I will question you and you shall answer Me. Would you discredit My justice? Would you condemn Me to justify yourself?"

To have a relationship with Him requires that we trust in His goodness in spite of all our questions. He made this possible by demonstrating His love for us by sending His Son to die for us while we were yet sinners. What more can we demand of Him?

AetheriusLamia said:

This teaching is common among ministers of Christian churches. I'm considering what I'm being told by others.

This is an important point indeed! Biblically it appears to me God defines it as obeying Him, and doesn't really care to talk with us individually the vast majority of the time. Given what Paul says about God creating good works for us to do, it seems to me even that God intends not to speak to any of us, preferring we spend our time talking with each other rather than Him.

But then I don't understand this doctrine of "the Holy Spirit dwelling within us", to be so silent and seemingly absent! There is a Gospel passage where Jesus says both He and the Father will abide within us, as I recall...


My understanding of this passage is, "To question God about our suffering is to underestimate His wisdom/power/goodness." However, ...

... when I suffer apparently pointlessly (gratuitous suffering), and when I see particularly egregious suffering of others, I think

1. Jesus deserved to suffer for putting us through all this; God would not deserve to be worshipped if He hadn't assumed a human nature and experienced every privation He puts us through.
2. God owes us an explanation for everything (because He designed us to seek such answers), thus the General Judgment at the end of time.

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Who introduced suffering (and death) into the world - God or man?

Joseph G said:

Who introduced suffering (and death) into the world - God or man?

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Satan.

Romans 5:12 NIV

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.."

Whether you credit Satan or Adam, the point is that it was not God's fault.

So considering that God provided everything to them that we long for now - paradise, good health, purpose, beauty, unbroken fellowship with Him, ect. and they thumbed their nose at Him because even that wasn't enough, and chose to be their own gods, why does He owe them a darn thing? He even provided the Tree of Life from which they could freely eat and they ignored it.

After doing the deed and discovering his shame, can you imagine the absurd hubris it would take for Adam to immediately shake his fist at God and demand that He send His Son to die to pay for HIS sin? And suffer so He could feel his pain? And still not being thankful when He does?

And yet that is what we all do ever since. Why? Because we demand paradise on our own terms, pet sins and all.

Sorry, He doesn't owe us an explanation for squat. He has given all the information we need through His Word and the testimonies of His saints. If we do not humble ourselves WE will owe HIM an explanation for despising His free gift of eternal life through Jesus. Temporary suffering will be no excuse for refusing the offer.

AetheriusLamia said:

-- Pacwa, M (2011). How to Listen When God is Speaking. Frederick, MD: The Word Among Us Press. p. 11.

Why is this not practically a stand-alone 'proof by contradiction' argument? It needs only a little fleshing out:

1. If God created us for relationship with Him and intends to speak to us, he would give us all the intrinsic ability to hear Him, not something to be learned by other humans.
2. He has not done so.
3. Thus God either did not create us for relationship with Him or doesn't intend to speak to us.

Why would God make our ability to hear Him dependent on humans teaching other humans?

To 'have good works' for us to do? Are we really to believe God created some people whose purpose is to get others to listen to Him? How is that compatible with "God's love for all mankind" if people go to hell if they are not taught to listen to Him? and compatible with God's wisdom as there seems to be far fewer teachers available than those who need to learn.

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God did create us to have a relationship with Him, and we did, but then we sinned and because of that, we no longer have a intimate relationship with Him.

The reason many do not hear God today, is becase we are spiritually dead, and deaf, and only God can in His mercy give you ears to hear.

God calls us today to have a relationship with Him, through His Son. But only through His Son it is possible.

AetheriusLamia said:

This teaching is common among ministers of Christian churches. I'm considering what I'm being told by others.

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Sure. But I'm an evolutionary existentialist, and ultimately a Realist, who has studied Analytic Philosophy (really much more than that though), so I'm not taken in by the intrusions of ill-defined qualifiers that have so often been inducted into Christian Theology over the centuries, instituted as they are by one denomination or another and supposedly made to stand as "official" dogma or as sanctioned explanations about the meaning of the Bible.

"Relationship" is one of those troublesome words, and it involves a concept that we don't actually find specifically in the Bible. It tends to lose its denotative force in conceptual connection to God because the referent isn't clear and distinct in everyday life on a theological level, only on a human to human level, comporting with some aspects of various theories in Communication and/or Psychology. Having a "relationship with God" sounds good, though, ideologically; it's ideal to think that God would "relate" to us in the same way on a face to face basis, much as we do with our fellow family members or neighbors, each waking day. We all want that sort of comfort and affirmation.

Still, if God loves the people of the World, then my question becomes: what is the bare minimum that we need to see at work in the world to "feel" and "believe" that God loves us? The answer isn't, I think, a universally recognized one. It is subjective rather than objective, and this is what makes it so difficult for someone like me to say to someone else who is suffering, "God Loves You!," and then see him/her come away also feeling and believing the same thing.

AetheriusLamia said:

This is an important point indeed! Biblically it appears to me God defines it as obeying Him, and doesn't really care to talk with us individually the vast majority of the time. Given what Paul says about God creating good works for us to do, it seems to me even that God intends not to speak to any of us, preferring we spend our time talking with each other rather than Him.

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God is Hidden, and yes, I think you're right that on some practical level, He prefers that we human beings, especially if we are Christian, take the time to talk to each other (as well as to "serve" others) in order to advance His Kingdom.

Of course, the trick in this church centered set up is that Christians will have to learn how to love others in order for that "talking" to not only take place, but to have a beneficent outcome. Unfortunately, for some Christians, politics instead replaces the opportunities for discourses of "care."

AetheriusLamia said:

But then I don't understand this doctrine of "the Holy Spirit dwelling within us", to be so silent and seemingly absent! There is a Gospel passage where Jesus says both He and the Father will abide within us, as I recall...

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Yes. And I've only ever interpreted that to mean that we'd each feel some amorphous motivation, however infrequently, to trudge ahead and follow Him---to follow Jesus, more specifically--- anyway despite the hurdles and the pain we all have to endure in this life ...

AetheriusLamia said:

-- Pacwa, M (2011). How to Listen When God is Speaking. Frederick, MD: The Word Among Us Press. p. 11.

Why is this not practically a stand-alone 'proof by contradiction' argument? It needs only a little fleshing out:

1. If God created us for relationship with Him and intends to speak to us, he would give us all the intrinsic ability to hear Him, not something to be learned by other humans.
2. He has not done so.
3. Thus God either did not create us for relationship with Him or doesn't intend to speak to us.

Why would God make our ability to hear Him dependent on humans teaching other humans?

To 'have good works' for us to do? Are we really to believe God created some people whose purpose is to get others to listen to Him? How is that compatible with "God's love for all mankind" if people go to hell if they are not taught to listen to Him? and compatible with God's wisdom as there seems to be far fewer teachers available than those who need to learn.

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The primary question that this causes me to ask is: what does "God speaking to us" mean?

-CryptoLutheran

As part of the entire body, believers all are graced with different gifts from God. Some people are not adept at understanding the bible whereas others are very blessed with knowledge and even understanding. Likewise some people are gifted of eliciting understanding in others. An example is the preacher in church. We all usually recognize the gifted preacher by our own reactions to his sermons. And we can notice a decrease in our inspiration when a substitute preacher fills in occasionally. I learn much by fellowship with others who are blessed with understanding. We are all part of one body in Jesus that together make us whole.

How do others teach us to hear God?

The ability to "hear" the voice of God, is different than
using that ability.

We had, originally, the ability to hear God.
But through free will, we can choose to not hear, or to not recognize
ANY sound evidence. (Take the embrace of ridiculous conspiracy
theories, as an example.)

The proposition that someone must TEACH us how to hear the voice of God,
is not TRUE.

But if we have CHOSEN to ignore the voice of God, then it is proper for
others to tell us that we have lost or perverted this important ability.

AetheriusLamia said:

Why would God make our ability to hear Him dependent on humans teaching other humans?

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The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit is our teacher and guide. Jeremiah 31 "No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” We can not understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit working in us.

Brihaha said:

As part of the entire body, believers all are graced with different gifts from God. Some people are not adept at understanding the bible whereas others are very blessed with knowledge and even understanding. Likewise some people are gifted of eliciting understanding in others. An example is the preacher in church. We all usually recognize the gifted preacher by our own reactions to his sermons. And we can notice a decrease in our inspiration when a substitute preacher fills in occasionally. I learn much by fellowship with others who are blessed with understanding. We are all part of one body in Jesus that together make us whole.

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That was a nice thing to say. Inspired by God?

returntosender said:

That was a nice thing to say. Inspired by God?

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Every nice thing I do or say is certainly inspired by God. I am realizing I am not capable or worthy without God's grace. He happens to use us humans to work His plans. My dad found an inspired church and pastor. His enjoyment and happiness has subsequently inspired me. We discuss the Lord weekly and I am grateful my dad has a faithful church in which to worship and grow his faith.

I haven't posted here for a spell because I feel social media doesn't bring me closer to God. If we put ourselves into a sinful environment we create our own stumbling blocks to our faith. I have zero business as a Christian arguing with others on social media over worldly concerns. Abortion, politics and the LGBTQ threads that abound on social media have been losing their appeal to me. My faith suffers by participating in such conversations. I am listening to the Comforter and learning to trust that Holy Spirit more and more. It's not easy for us to turn our will over to God. We humans like to immerse ourselves in concerns of this world. But I don't believe that is God's will for me anymore.

But I am willing to reply and testify to my faith in God. I appreciate your acknowledgement of my comment and your response. Have a blessed day my friend.