Islam Are Allah and God of the Bible the same Person?

Mrs.PGL

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1) no. I watch the news.
Look at Syria
2) Seems your "I hate Christians" blog can copy scripture. That does not mean that you understand it, as evidenced by the rest of your comment.
3) You have chosen to deny reality, my friend, and Jesus will help you with that.
4) AD or BC? Odd, they read scripture in the history sections of the OT.
5) "No Muslims do not want to kill Christians." BTW - what about the Jews? That quote included them also. I think of Iran, right now...Also, I asked, do you?
6) You can force anyone to say anything when threatening them with a gun or knife, but only God knows the heart.
We are finished as I have allowed enough space for propaganda. Have a blessed day, my friend.
 
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Muslim-UK

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No, I suspect it was quite heated. Tradition even recounts St. Nicolas of Myra (of Santa Claus fame) being so infuriated with Arius that he punched him.

You know early Church History pretty well. You are right to take what Eusebias has to say with a little salt. He likened Constantine's court to God's heavenly Court. It was also Eusebias who happened to come across the reference to Jesus pbuh found in the works of Josephus, and many suspect he was instrumental in its insertion. One can only imagine what else he was responsible for regarding scripture.

Constantine was power hungry, and very paranoid. He viewed himself as the greatest Emperor ever and commissioned some very interesting monuments of himself. I will post a documentary, rather than wear down my keyboard.

It makes for interesting viewing, when you consider less than 20% of the Bishops invited to the Council of Nicea turned up, and it was after this, the State oversaw the Church. Bishops who towed the line, were rewarded with land and funding, those that didn't were shunned and excommunicated. In fact, things got very bloody, and libraries were sacked, books confiscated and many lost their lives.

 
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Muslim-UK

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1) no. I watch the news.
Look at Syria

I watch the news too and see the enemies of God are killing 10's of thousands of innocent Muslims too.

3) You have chosen to deny reality, my friend, and Jesus will help you with that.

I follow Jesus pbuh, refrain from alcohol like he did, don't eat pork, and keep the latest commandments, most of which are identical to those given to Moses pbuh
4) AD or BC? Odd, they read scripture in the history sections of the OT.
Watch the Doc above, and it will explain it was A.D
5)what about the Jews? That quote included them also. I think of Iran, right now...Also, I asked, do you?
5,000 Jews live in Iran, at one point there were over 70,000 they sold up and moved to Israel without hindrance.
6) You can force anyone to say anything when threatening them with a gun or knife, but only God knows the heart.
the article shows, these are mostly women in the UK. Educated women exercising their free will.

I appreciate the space given to tell the truth, You have a blessed day too.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You know early Church History pretty well. You are right to take what Eusebias has to say with a little salt. He likened Constantine's court to God's heavenly Court. It was also Eusebias who happened to come across the reference to Jesus pbuh found in the works of Josephus, and many suspect he was instrumental in its insertion. One can only imagine what else he was responsible for regarding scripture.

I don't know anyone who believes Eusebius was responsible for the Testimonium Flavium, but that the interpolation is anonymous.

Eusebius' only role, historically, vis-a-vis Scripture was Constantine's request to have fifty copies of Scripture made so they could be put into the fifty churches being built in the new capital. We have no idea what these copies of Scriptures included specifically, the Canon was still in dispute at the time, it's possible that Codex Sinaiticus might be an example but that, as far as I know, is speculation. There has never been a formal, definitive agreement on the Canon in Christianity broadly speaking. In the West the Canon wasn't defined until the Roman Catholic Council of Trent, which only Roman Catholics accept; most Protestants (but not Lutherans) have defined the Canon for themselves in their respective confessional documents. While basic agreement on the homolegoumena can be demonstrated from the 2nd century onward, the antilegomena and the Deuterocanonicals continued to be disputed in some capacity right up into the high middle ages in some places. So whatever role Eusebius could have played, even hypothetically, would have been basically irrelevant, there were far more important voices in that process than Eusebius ever could have been.

And if you are suggesting Eusebius played a hand in corrupting the texts themselves, well, that's silly. Also, remember that Eusebius of Caesarea was a Semi-Arian, his historical writings are considered important but at the end of the day Eusebius was heterodox.

Constantine was power hungry, and very paranoid. He viewed himself as the greatest Emperor ever and commissioned some very interesting monuments of himself. I will post a documentary, rather than wear down my keyboard.

Based on the thumbnail alone I'd say that the "documentary" is nonsense. When anyone points to Constantine and talks about the beginning of the Roman Catholic Church then I know that such a person to be completely ignorant of history; and here's why:

The term "Roman Catholic" applies exclusively to that communion of churches which are in communion with the Bishop of Rome and regard the Bishop of Rome to be the universal temporal head of the entire catholic Church on earth; based upon the premise of Petrine supremacy. It does not apply, for example, to the Orthodox Churches, that is the Eastern and Oriental Orthdox who have never accepted that the Bishop of Rome is the universal temporal head of the Church or in Petrine supremacy but rather hold to the position that all bishops are equal and that the unity of the Church is not found in a single bishop but in the universal confession of faith safeguarded by all the bishops.

The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics used to be in communion as one church, for the first thousand years of Christian history, but that communion was broken in 1054, the reasons for which are quite complicated and go back centuries prior to this, but even then that schism was not final until the Council of Florence, again, with quite a bit of complicated circumstance (from Rome's perspective the Council was successful in restoring communion with the East, from the perspective of the Orthodox this resulted in little more than further betrayal by Rome).

In the most strict sense there was no Roman Catholic Church until 1054, because that is the moment that the Western Church became a fully independent ecclesiastical entity; prior to which while the power of the Roman bishop had been accumulating since, perhaps, the 6th or 7th century (some point to Leo I as the start of the papacy) there remained still a balance and a check in the form of the Eastern bishops and patriarchs who understood themselves as Rome's complete and full equals, never having understood themselves as subordinate.

I bring this up because I'm not going to watch the video you posted, I've seen these sorts of things perhaps a hundred or two hundred times in the decade plus I've been discussing these sorts of issues, because based on the thumbnail alone it's clear that this video is going to be filled with historical gibberish and utter fabrication. It's simply not worth my time or anyone's time.

It makes for interesting viewing, when you consider less than 20% of the Bishops invited to the Council of Nicea turned up, and it was after this, the State oversaw the Church. Bishops who towed the line, were rewarded with land and funding, those that didn't were shunned and excommunicated. In fact, things got very bloody, and libraries were sacked, books confiscated and many lost their lives.


Does this video of yours mention that after the Council of Nicea Constantine was influenced by Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius of Nicomedia, a Semi-Arian and an Arian, to take Arius' side; that Constantine was himself personally responsible for sending Nicene-confessing bishops, such as St. Athanasius of Alexandria, into exile? Does it mention that Constantine's death bed baptism was performed by the Arian Eusebius of Nicomedia, and that Constantine's son Constantius, who had his brother Constans assasinated, was a devout Arian and actively worked against the Nicene confessing faction?

Or does it just offer the usual hogwash about Constantine uniting paganism with Christianity in order to produce a brand new religion, creating the "Roman Catholic Church" because it was Rome's official Church (no matter to mention the reality of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, in particular those churches which were never within the borders of the Roman empire, such as in Persia, Mesopotamia, Arabia, India, and Ethiopia--though I'm sure the video has a very good reason to explain why the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Indian Malankara Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, or the Ethiopian Tawahedo Orthodox Church embrace the same fundamental doctrines as Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant churches. I mean, I'm sure it has an explanation on how Constantine was so powerful that he was even able to control completely autocephelous and autonomous churches whose base of operations were in places like Edessa or the Kerala region of India on the Malabar coast.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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We exchanged personal accounts, and have established these things are subjective, and unverifiable.


You used a fabricated verse 1 John 5:7 to show 3 in 1. You have failed to show to show me where Father, Son and Holy Ghost are 3 separate beings who together form ONE God. If this is what Jesus pbuh taught, then the Bible should be brimming with such verses.

Until then I will carry on worshipping the GOD of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of ALLAH swt be upon them all.

It seems, you are adding to what Jesus pbuh taught and making things up to justify the teachings of the Church.


The problem here is again unverifiable data, and personal accounts and all subjective. People claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit, giving them the ability to heal people, yet every time you tell them there are dozens of people in a Hospital, less than a few miles away, could they please go there and help innocent people experiencing unbearable pain and agony. Every single time, they make excuses and scuttle off.

In fact, why even go to a Hospital. There are hundreds of threads right here on this forum, asking for people to help them, go there and pray for them, and let us know how many you are able to help: Prayer Wall

Over a thousands threads here with people suffering depression, and other issues:
Christian Advice

I look forward to reading your input on the above forums and watching how the Spirit of God within you helps transform lives.



I agree as everyone has their personal experiences, and if this part of the board is set up to convince of other religions, their way is wrong, then it fails.


Words written by Luke, the Disciple of Pharisee Saul, and neither man met Jesus.


The 'Way', the 'Truth' and the 'Life' are all metaphors for Torah or being Torah observant:

I am the way. To his Disciples; the Old Testament Jew, the way was the Torah. The only way to God was through the law. Psalms 119:1 says, “Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the LAW of the LORD.” Psalms 32:8 says, “I will instruct you and show you the way to go; with My eye on you, I will give counsel.” Jesus' followers were also very familiar with Exodus 18:20 ”And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do.” For the Jews, that way was the law and the prophets. In Jewish tradition, the way to find the path to God was to study the Torah.

I am the truth. To the Torah Jew, the truth was the Torah. Psalms 119:142 says, “Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is truth.” Verse 151 says “You are near, Lord, and all Your commands are truth.” The Jews understood, that truth was the law and the prophets. Absolute truth could only be found in God and revealed in the Law and the Prophets. God was seen as the God of Truth, and the Torah was said to be His thoughts and the revelation of His purpose in the creation of the universe, thereby revealing absolute truth. All “truth” was to be compared against the Truth revealed in the Law and the prophets. The disciples had been taught from childhood that if something did not line up with the truth of scripture, then it was not true.

I am the life. To the Torah Jew, the life was the Torah. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, Moses gives the Israelites a choice to make. They could choose life and prosperity, or they could choose death and adversity. If they chose life, they would have to walk in God's ways, and keep his Law, because God is their life. If they chose death, they were free to ignore God's ways and laws. Moses gave them this advice, choose life. For the Israelite, to follow the law was to choose life. The Torah was life. T he disciples had been taught this from childhood.

No one comes to the Father except through Me. To the Old Testament Jew, the only way to God was through the Law. The Law made it possible for the Israelites to approach God. The sacrifices and rituals allowed them to present themselves before God and to be accepted by him. Those who tried to approach God without following the Law usually ended up dead, (Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10). All Israelites knew that the only way to God was through the Law.

Four radical, clear cut statements from the lips of Jesus pbuh. Remember he was very clear about the Torah:

Sermon on the Mount; Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

For Salvation, you have to follow the Prophet sent, as each Prophet before was the Way, Truth, Life and no one came to GOD except through them. All the Jews should have Followed Jesus, listened to him and obeyed his commandments.

Muslim –UK said:

We exchanged personal accounts, and have established these things are subjective, and unverifiable.

They have already been verified to me and since you look to the “science” of “scholars” nothing of this nature could ever be verified to you.

Muslim –UK said:

You used a fabricated verse 1 John 5:7 to show 3 in 1. You have failed to show to show me where Father, Son and Holy Ghost are 3 separate beings who together form ONE God. If this is what Jesus pbuh taught, then the Bible should be brimming with such verses.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


17 And lo a voice from heaven,(The Father’s voice) saying, This is my beloved Son,(Jesus the Son) in whom I am well pleased


We have the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit referred to in this passage as well as, Mark 1:10-11 Luke 3:22 John 1:32-34 Matthew28:19 2 Corinthians 13:14 John 14:26 John 14:17-17 Colossians 2:9


Isaiah 42:42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, (God the Father referring to His son Jesus) in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: (the Holy Spirit) he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.


The scripture is “brimming” with proof of the Trinity and since your only defense is cast doubt on the validity of the Holy Bible the readers of this thread will just have to decide for themselves what or who to believe, The God of heaven and Father of Jesus or Allah the God of the Quran.


There are numerous verses that refer to both the Father and Son.


Muslim –UK said:

Until then I will carry on worshipping the GOD of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of ALLAH swt be upon them all

The God of the Holy Bible is the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus. Muhammad is nowhere in the pages of the Holy Bible. You have to add to the scriptures your private interpretation to make that happen. Again the readers of this thread will decide that for themselves.

Muslim –UK said:

It seems, you are adding to what Jesus pbuh taught and making things up to justify the teachings of the Church.

I have given more than enough clear scripture to show the Trinity is a valid doctrine of scripture. The readers will decide.

Muslim –UK said:

The problem here is again unverifiable data, and personal accounts and all subjective. People claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit, giving them the ability to heal people, yet every time you tell them there are dozens of people in a Hospital, less than a few miles away, could they please go there and help innocent people experiencing unbearable pain and agony. Every single time, they make excuses and scuttle off.

In fact, why even go to a Hospital. There are hundreds of threads right here on this forum, asking for people to help them, go there and pray for them, and let us know how many you are able to help: Prayer Wall

Over a thousands threads here with people suffering depression, and other issues:

Christian Advice

I look forward to reading your input on the above forums and watching how the Spirit of God within you helps transform lives.

Your obsession with verifiable data is costing you eternal life and many blessing of God. It is clear you have no understanding of the things of the God of the Bible and how He works through men. I liken the spirit of your challenge to that of Matthew 4:3 Matthew 4:6.

Muslim –UK said:

I agree as everyone has their personal experiences, and if this part of the board is set up to convince of other religions, their way is wrong, then it fails.

The question of this thread has been answered!

Muslim –UK said:

Words written by Luke, the Disciple of Pharisee Saul, and neither man met Jesus.

Your doubt and unbelief does not alter the Word of God.

Muslim –UK said:

For Salvation, you have to follow the Prophet sent, as each Prophet before was the Way, Truth, Life and no one came to GOD except through them. All the Jews should have Followed Jesus, listened to him and obeyed his commandments.

With all due respect your understanding of the way of salvation is no better than on the topic of miracles of God.


Again the readers will decide for themselves I believe these discussions have been helpful to show the contrast between two opposite faiths anything trying to link them is without merit.
 
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Muslim-UK

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Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

So Jesus pbuh was born again with the baptism of water, his previous sins forgiven and the heavens opened and the spirit of God descended on him. I don't see 3 separate beings together as ONE God. No Trinity here.

What we have is what happens to Prophets, the spirit descends on them, and fills their soul with divine inspiration. Light descending, wind rushing, ringing of bells, even being branded by fire.


17 And lo a voice from heaven,(The Father’s voice) saying, This is my beloved Son,(Jesus the Son) in whom I am well pleased

All Prophets are considered blessed, loved servants of GOD.

We have the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit referred to in this passage as well as, Mark 1:10-11 Luke 3:22 John 1:32-34 Matthew28:19 2 Corinthians 13:14 John 14:26 John 14:17-17 Colossians 2:9

All the verses speak about the Holy Spirit, the spirit which gives inner strength, except one which sort of hints at something akin to the 3 separate persons....

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

Yet we read acts and discover not one disciple baptised using that formula.


‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins’” (Acts 2:38).

“They had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 8:16).
“So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 10:48).
“On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 19:5).

I can't imagine any reason why the Apostles and others in Acts would disobey a direct command of Jesus pbuh if it was in the earliest manuscripts.


Isaiah 42:42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

I took out your brackets, and as you can see, Muslims feel justified in saying the above refers to the Final Messenger of GOD. We have different interpretations.

The scripture is “brimming” with proof of the Trinity and since your only defense is cast doubt on the validity of the Holy Bible the readers of this thread will just have to decide for themselves what or who to believe, The God of heaven and Father of Jesus or Allah the God of the Quran.

I didn't see a single verse saying 3 separate beings are together ONE GOD. Perhaps you could have another look?

You should watch the video I posted for ViaCrucis, as it shows how deeply rooted Christianity is in Pagan Sun God worship. The story of Constantine being inspired by the Holy Ghost, as recorded by Greek Historian and Bishop, Eusebius is a fabrication.

Notice too the edict issued by Constantine about changing the Sabbath to Sun 'worship' day:

“On the venerable day of the
'SUN' let the Magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed.”

I think it's best for my soul to worship the GOD of Abraham pbuh.


There are numerous verses that refer to both the Father and Son.
They don't give the Trinity formula as you understand it.

The God of the Holy Bible is the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus. Muhammad is nowhere in the pages of the Holy Bible. You have to add to the scriptures your private interpretation to make that happen. Again the readers of this thread will decide that for themselves.

Muhammad pbuh is mentioned by name and his description given in the Song of Solomon 5.
He is mentioned in various places of Isaiah. the Isaiah scroll was found amongst the DSS and is one, which looks the same as what it is today, so we know it has been preserved from the 2nd Century B.C.

Your obsession with verifiable data is costing you eternal life and many blessing of God. It is clear you have no understanding of the things of the God of the Bible and how He works through men. I liken the spirit of your challenge to that of Matthew 4:3 Matthew 4:6.

Personal testimonies are different to watching someone with healing powers walk in to a Hospital or change lives on this forum. Somehow I doubt we will be witness to such things.
Recently people like Creflo Dollar and Benny Hinn have also demonstrated their healing powers are not quite what they seem.

"Words written by Luke, the Disciple of Pharisee Saul, and neither man met Jesus."
Your doubt and unbelief does not alter the Word of God.

I'm sure they won't be expunged from your Bible, but the more people find out all is not quite the word of GOD, the more people will continue in their journey for answers.

With all due respect your understanding of the way of salvation is no better than on the topic of miracles of God.

Yes because it doesn't fit with the Pagan concept as practised by those who gave you your religion. Did you know they just changed the names of their gods to notable people found within the pages of the Bible?
Again the readers will decide for themselves I believe these discussions have been helpful to show the contrast between two opposite faiths anything trying to link them is without merit.

You worship a Triune God, that is right at home with Pagan beliefs of old. Jews and Muslims reject such a God, so I am in agreement with you.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You should watch the video I posted for ViaCrucis, as it shows how deeply rooted Christianity is in Pagan Sun God worship. The story of Constantine being inspired by the Holy Ghost, as recorded by Greek Historian and Bishop, Eusebius is a fabrication.

So just ignoring my post I see. I explained in my previous post to you why I wasn't going to bother with your video--as I suspected the video was going to offer the same tired fabrications I've heard a hundred times before.

So perhaps you could answer my question: How did Constantine influence Christianity in Persia, Armenia, or India?

Does your video get into how Constantine--who opposed the Nicene confessors and supported the Arians--was able to enforce a paganization of Christianity to people living thousands of miles away from the Roman Empire? What kind of influence do you believe Constantine had in the Sasanian Empire?

Here's the problem, you're basically just offering your own version of the Jack Chick history of religion; it's of the same quality as the claims that Muslims worship a moon god and that the Vatican was responsible for the creation of your religion (no, really, there are people who believe that).

I take the things your presenting with all the same seriousness I take those other things--that is, I don't. Because it's conspiracy theory, fabrication, and nonsense.

The sheer volume of misinformation available is astonishing. I once watched a documentary about Constantine known as Constantine's Sword, it was a good budget well produced documentary but the problem is that even right from the beginning it got something that is really easy to learn completely wrong. In Constantine's Sword the narrator alleges that IHS, often found in Catholic art and architecture, is an abbreviation of the Latin phrase "in hoc signes vinces", "in this sign, conquer" the phrase supposedly uttered in Constantine's vision prior to the Battle at the Milvian Bridge.

Small problem, IHS can also be found as JHS, IHC, JHC. That's because it doesn't stand for in hoc signes vinces, it doesn't stand for any Latin phrase at all. It is derived from the Greek IHΣ or IHC. The reason why we see variously an S or a C at the end is because the "C" isn't a "C" at all, it is a Sigma, a form known as a lunate Sigma, a form of Sigma that looks almost identical to the Latin 'C'. This is what's known as a Christogram, it is the first three letters of ΙΗΣΟΥΣ/ΙΗCΟΥC, Iesous, Jesus. Other Christograms include the Chi-Rho, the first two letters of the word Christ (ΧPΙΣTOΣ).

This is the kind of problem that is abundant. And it often doesn't require any kind of deep search, most things of this nature are incredibly easy to find out by a very easy internet search--as long as one is willing to think critically, check their sources, etc.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DWA2DAY

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The author of that article says, we worship the same God. His theory is Christians and Jews came together with Arabs, who all believed the Trinity was nonsense. This he submits, explains why Churches and Synagogues were not destroyed and why the Muslims were so successful in their breathtaking expansion.

Feel free to find more articles that go against you :)

Thats not all he says, read the whole thing its equally bad for Muslims.
 
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DWA2DAY

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Early on when I started participating in this thread I tried to start a discussion on the personal experience of believers of the Christian faith and those of the Muslim faith. It is my opinion that is would more productive than a constant back and forth of presenting the opinions of so called scholars and so called experts in whatever field. All of that has its..................... p

I think this would be a good idea, how ever not the place under the Islamic tag as would be a matter of throwing pearls to pigs. none the less....

recently I have just been cured from terminal cancer of the ear neck and neck. my last chance was radical surgery and a 8 hour opp planned, when they cut me open they could find no tumour which was clearly shown on the MRI and pathology reports. They took two new biopsies during the opp that came back negative.

I never believed I would be so blessed by God healing. How humbling it was. my point why is it the big stories that draw attention when daily we experience Gods love in so many smaller miracles.

Regards Doug
 
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SteveCaruso

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I explained in my previous post to you why I wasn't going to bother with your video--as I suspected the video was going to offer the same tired fabrications I've heard a hundred times before.

@ViaCrucis : The title seemed familiar, so to put the issue to rest (and to move the conversation along) I bit the bullet.

Consider your hypothesis of what it contained confirmed.

For future reference, @Muslim-UK : If you see Simcha Jacobovici's name on something, it is more often than not sensationalist, non-critical rubbish. This is the guy who believes he found Atlantis, the nails used to crucify Jesus, and the tomb of Jesus. (Insisting an amphora on an ossuary is a fish and represents the story of Jonah – therefore it must be Christian.) He is well-known in scholarly circles as a fringe theorist.
 
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So Jesus pbuh was born again with the baptism of water, his previous sins forgiven and the heavens opened and the spirit of God descended on him. I don't see 3 separate beings together as ONE God. No Trinity here.

What we have is what happens to Prophets, the spirit descends on them, and fills their soul with divine inspiration. Light descending, wind rushing, ringing of bells, even being branded by fire.




All Prophets are considered blessed, loved servants of GOD.



All the verses speak about the Holy Spirit, the spirit which gives inner strength, except one which sort of hints at something akin to the 3 separate persons....

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

Yet we read acts and discover not one disciple baptised using that formula.


‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins’” (Acts 2:38).

“They had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 8:16).
“So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 10:48).
“On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 19:5).

I can't imagine any reason why the Apostles and others in Acts would disobey a direct command of Jesus pbuh if it was in the earliest manuscripts.




I took out your brackets, and as you can see, Muslims feel justified in saying the above refers to the Final Messenger of GOD. We have different interpretations.



I didn't see a single verse saying 3 separate beings are together ONE GOD. Perhaps you could have another look?

You should watch the video I posted for ViaCrucis, as it shows how deeply rooted Christianity is in Pagan Sun God worship. The story of Constantine being inspired by the Holy Ghost, as recorded by Greek Historian and Bishop, Eusebius is a fabrication.

Notice too the edict issued by Constantine about changing the Sabbath to Sun 'worship' day:

“On the venerable day of the
'SUN' let the Magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed.”

I think it's best for my soul to worship the GOD of Abraham pbuh.



They don't give the Trinity formula as you understand it.



Muhammad pbuh is mentioned by name and his description given in the Song of Solomon 5.
He is mentioned in various places of Isaiah. the Isaiah scroll was found amongst the DSS and is one, which looks the same as what it is today, so we know it has been preserved from the 2nd Century B.C.



Personal testimonies are different to watching someone with healing powers walk in to a Hospital or change lives on this forum. Somehow I doubt we will be witness to such things.
Recently people like Creflo Dollar and Benny Hinn have also demonstrated their healing powers are not quite what they seem.



I'm sure they won't be expunged from your Bible, but the more people find out all is not quite the word of GOD, the more people will continue in their journey for answers.



Yes because it doesn't fit with the Pagan concept as practised by those who gave you your religion. Did you know they just changed the names of their gods to notable people found within the pages of the Bible?


You worship a Triune God, that is right at home with Pagan beliefs of old. Jews and Muslims reject such a God, so I am in agreement with you.

Muslim-UK said:

So Jesus pbuh was born again with the baptism of water, his previous sins forgiven and the heavens opened and the spirit of God descended on him. I don't see 3 separate beings together as ONE God. No Trinity here.

Jesus had no previous sins to be forgiven. A purely blasphemous statement on your part.

What we have is what happens to Prophets, the spirit descends on them, and fills their soul with divine inspiration. Light descending, wind rushing, ringing of bells, even being branded by fire.

I am fully aware of your belief Jesus was just another prophet as Isaiah or any of the others of the Old Testament. You could not be further from the truth, which of those prophets prophesied and fulfilled of their own death and resurrection, which of those are seated on the right hand of the father?


I’m also fully aware of your lack of understanding of the trinity, who Jesus was and how he operated while on this earth.


Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

While Jesus was the sinless Son of God He worked on this earth in human form anointed of God to perform the works that we read of. He submitted Himself as a man and was subject to the same temptations we are, yet without sin. He took on our sin, Hebrews 4:15, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Muslim-UK said:

All Prophets are considered blessed, loved servants of GOD.

All prophets were not the SINLESS Son of God sent to redeem mankind!

Muslim-UK said:

I didn't see a single verse saying 3 separate beings are together ONE GOD. Perhaps you could have another look?

There is a lot you don’t or just refuse to see in the Holy Bible.

Muslim-UK said:

Muhammad pbuh is mentioned by name and his description given in the Song of Solomon 5.

FALSE!

Does Song of Solomon Mention Muhammad?

“In English, the verse reads: “His mouth is most sweet, yes, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem!” (NKJV). A phonetic transliteration of the underlying Hebrew text reads: Kheeco mahm-tah-keem vuh-coollo ma-kha-madeem zeh dodee veh-tseh ray-ee beh-note yerushalayim. Muslims claim that the bolded word, though translated “altogether lovely,” is the name of Muhammad (Naik, n.d.). Consider six linguistic evidences that dispute Naik’s claim:


The second syllable (kha) utilizes the Hebrew letter heth which has a hard initial sound like the “ch” in the Scottish word “loch.” It is to be distinguished from the Hebrew letter he which is the same as the English letter “h.” If Muhammad was being referred to, the simple “h” would have been more linguistically appropriate.


Muslims claim that the eem (or im) in ma-kha-madeem in the Hebrew language was “added for respect” (Naik). This claim is untrue and unsubstantiated. The letters constitute the standard form for changing a singular to a plural—like adding “s” or “es” in English (cf. Weingreen, 1959, pp. 35ff.). As the eminent Emil Rödiger (who was professor for oriental languages at the University of Halle and the student of the well-known German Orientalist, H.F.W. Gesenius) noted in his editorial comment in the prestigious Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar: “The use of the plural as a form of respectful address is quite foreign to Hebrew” (Gesenius, 1898, p. 418).


The meaning of the Hebrew ma-kha-madeem is different from the meaning of the word “Muhammad” in Arabic. According to Sheikh Abd al-Azîz, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, the word “Muhammad” is derived from the Arabic root word hamd meaning “praise.” It is the emphatic passive participle of that root and can be translated as “the Oft-Praised One” (n.d.). However, the Hebrew term (makh-mahd) in the passage under consideration has a completely different meaning. It refers to “grace, beauty” (Gesenius, 1847, p. 464), “a desirable thing, delightfulness” (Brown, et al., 1906, pp. 326-327), “a pleasant thing” (Payne, 1980, 1:295), or “precious” (Holladay, 1988, p. 190). English translations render the term “altogether lovely” (NKJV, NIV), “wholly desirable” (NASB), and “altogether desirable” (ESV, RSV). No reputable English translation would render the underlying Hebrew as “praised one,” let alone as “Muhammad.” All Muslims have done is happen upon a Hebrew word that phonetically sounds somewhat like “Muhammad” and have erroneously concluded the word must be referring to him. Such handling of linguistic data is irresponsible—if not deceptive.


Further, the claim that Muhammad is intended in the verse completely disregards the context and message of the book of Song of Solomon. The book consists of a dialogue between Solomon, his Shulamite bride-to-be, and the “daughters of Jerusalem,” with perhaps even God interjecting His comment (5:1b), as well as the Shulamite’s brothers (8:8-9). The term used in 5:16 that Muslims claim refers to Muhammad is also used in 2:3 to refer to the Shulamite’s beloved—“Like an apple tree among the trees of the woods, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down in his shade with great delight.” “Great delight” is the Hebrew word also used in 5:16; in both cases the words of the Shulamite refer to her beloved—not Muhammad.


Forms of the same Hebrew word are used elsewhere in the Old Testament, yet Muslims do not claim that those passages refer to Muhammad. Rightly so, since those verses cannot be forced to fit the notion that Muhammad is under consideration. For example, Isaiah 64:11 mourns the destruction of Jerusalem: “Our holy and beautiful temple, where our fathers praised You, is burned up with fire; and all our pleasant things are laid waste.” “Pleasant things” is a form of the same word in Song of Solomon 5:16. Would the Muslim contend that Muhammad was “laid waste” in Jerusalem? Additional occurrences of the same word—which dispel the misuse of the term by Muslims—are seen in 1 Kings 20:6; 2 Chronicles 36:19; Lamentations 1:10,11; Ezekiel 24:16,21,25; Hosea 9:9,16; Joel 3:5; et al. (Wigram, 1890, p. 687).


Even if the Hebrew word “lovely/desirable” in Song of Solomon were the Hebrew equivalent of the Arabic word “praised one” (which it is not), it still would not follow that Muhammad is being referred to in the Bible. Instead, it would simply be an indication that the underlying word stands on its own as a term used for other applications. For example, the Hebrew word for “bitter” is mah-rah. It is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the concept of bitter. Yet, due to her unpleasant circumstances in life, Naomi (whose name means “pleasant”) requested that her name be changed to “bitter” (mah-rah) to reflect her bitter predicament. It does not follow, however, that when the Hebrew word “bitter” appears in the Old Testament, it refers to Naomi. If parents today were to name their child John, it would not follow that they intended to reflect an association with others in history who have worn the name John—nor would references to John in the Bible constitute prophecies pointing to their son. Muslims have the cart before the horse. Their claim is equivalent to parents naming their child “wonderful” or “special”—and then claiming that an ancient writer had their child in mind when the writer used the word “wonderful” or “special” in referring to another person contemporary to the writer.


The truth of the matter is that the Bible nowhere refers to Muhammad. All other biblical passages purported to do so may likewise be shown to be misinterpreted and misapplied (Miller, 2003). The Bible contains within itself evidence that all non-Christian religions are false and contrary to the will of the God of the Universe (for more, see Miller, 2005).”


Muslim-UK said:

He is mentioned in various places of Isaiah. the Isaiah scroll was found amongst the DSS and is one, which looks the same as what it is today, so we know it has been preserved from the 2nd Century B.C.

FALSE!

Is Muhammad Mentioned in the Bible?

Muslim-UK said:

Yes because it doesn't fit with the Pagan concept as practised by those who gave you your religion. Did you know they just changed the names of their gods to notable people found within the pages of the Bible?

You have your own pagan ties to be concerned with.

Islam is Paganism in Monotheistic Gift Wrapping Paper.


Muslim-UK said:

You worship a Triune God, that is right at home with Pagan beliefs of old. Jews and Muslims reject such a God,

Are you now budding up with Jews? That is encouraging.
They will be relieved to hear that.


 
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Muslim-UK

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So just ignoring my post I see. I explained in my previous post to you why I wasn't going to bother with your video--as I suspected the video was going to offer the same tired fabrications I've heard a hundred times before.

Your post requires investigation and research before I'm able to comment. I haven't forgotten you :)
 
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@ViaCrucis : The title seemed familiar, so to put the issue to rest (and to move the conversation along) I bit the bullet.

Consider your hypothesis of what it contained confirmed.

For future reference, @Muslim-UK : If you see Simcha Jacobovici's name on something, it is more often than not sensationalist, non-critical rubbish. This is the guy who believes he found Atlantis, the nails used to crucify Jesus, and the tomb of Jesus. (Insisting an amphora on an ossuary is a fish and represents the story of Jonah – therefore it must be Christian.) He is well-known in scholarly circles as a fringe theorist.

Ah, Jacobovici, yes. He's something of a known quack in the field of archeology, that he's straight up lied doesn't help him much. That his name would be attached to something like this isn't shocking.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Muslim-UK

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I am fully aware of your belief Jesus was just another prophet as Isaiah or any of the others of the Old Testament. You could not be further from the truth, which of those prophets prophesied and fulfilled of their own death and resurrection, which of those are seated on the right hand of the father?
He is one of the mightiest Prophets of GOD, and has been tasked with returning to spread peace and justice within the Earth, so no not quite another Prophet at all.

Where did he predicts his own death and resurrection?

Seated at the right hand of GOD in reference to returning perhaps. In either case, I'm sure he himself would not have said such a thing; likely words put in his mouth?



Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Clearly explained in Acts 2:22 "Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."

While Jesus was the sinless Son of God He worked on this earth in human form anointed of God to perform the works that we read of. He submitted Himself as a man and was subject to the same temptations we are, yet without sin. He took on our sin, Hebrews 4:15, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Teachings of Paul are very popular with you Christians.

All prophets were not the SINLESS Son of God sent to redeem mankind!

Again not something Jesus pbuh said, rather words put into his mouth by unknown Greek writers.

I didn't see a single verse saying 3 separate beings are together ONE GOD. Perhaps you could have another look?

There is a lot you don’t or just refuse to see in the Holy Bible.

I went through all of them, and no where does it give the formula: The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are Three separate beings who together are One God. Such a radical departure from thousands of years of History, yet Jesus pbuh decided not to teach and explain it?!

I said, "Muhammad pbuh is mentioned by name and his description given in the Song of Solomon 5." FALSE!
Was he Solomon, Jesus or Muhammad ?

Muhammad's name appeared in Haggai 2:7 under the hebrew word mahmad (
mhmd.gif
) which means praised one (Muhammad is Arabic for praised one). It almost undoubtedly is referring to the Arabic Prophet Muhammad.

The 5th chapter of Songs of Solomon is discussing someone. Jews will say it is discussing Solomon, while Christians will say it is discussing Jesus. Considering this is the Songs of Solomon, it would seem logical that it is discussing Solomon. The verses describing this mystery man have the narators speech conjuagted in the feminine (meaning it is a woman who is describing this man) so it is possible that it is one of Solomon's wives discussing her Husband (Solomon). However, if a Christian tries to assert that Jesus is being discussed, then they are insinuating that this is discussing a future prophet (a man who was not yet alive at that point), a prophesy.... If the 5th chapter of Songs of Solomon is looking into the future, then there is no doubt it is discussing Muhammad.

Throughout the chapter, someone is being discussed. Whomever it is, verse 15 says his "countenance (face) is as Lebanon", so this is an Arabic gentleman (or Arab looking), a Semitic man none the less. Verse 11 says "his head is as the most fine gold, his locks are wavy, and black as a raven". Verse 10 describes this man as being "radiant and ruddy" which means he was slightly light-skinned with a rosy color. This can be confirmed in the Sahih Bukhari Hadiths, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 747, which says Muhammad was slightly light skinned, with a rosy color (and also has the same hair as is mentioned in verse 11). Also verse 14 describes this man as having a stomach like ivory. I take it this means the parts of his body that were usually covered by his garment from the sun, were very white (like ivory). This also can be atributed to Muhammad who although having a rosy, golden color, had white armpitts (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 17, Number 141 says you could see the whites of his armpitt when he raised his hand). WHAT'S THE POINT?!?!

Discussing skin color, and hair color is fruitless, and if I was basing it solely on that, it could be describing ANY Semitic man. However, this person's name is given. In reading the English translation of Songs 5:16 it finishes the description by saying "He is altogether lovely". The words "altogether lovely" was translated from mahmad (
mhmd.gif
). We'll take a closer look at this four character word, and prove this is talking about Muhammad...

First of all, the way this word is written is Hebrew is
mhmd.gif
. That happens to be the EXACT same was Muhammad's name is written in Hebrew. Let's look at the spelling of this word...

mhmd1.gif

It has four characters. Going from right to left they are...
mhmd2.gif


Now, when writing in Hebrew, there is no difference between the word mahmad (
mhmd.gif
) and Muhammad (
mhmd.gif
). The only difference is in the vowels used when pronouncing this word (
mhmd.gif
). Hebrew is an ancient language, and there are no vowels. It is made up of 22 consonants. In ancient times, the reader decided on his own which vowels to add in. It was not until the 8th century that vowels were introduced, in the form of dots and lines. However, this has nothing to do with real Hebrew. The word mahmad (
mhmd.gif
) in ancient times would most likely have been pronounced "mahamad".

According to Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary,
mhmd.gif
is correctly pronounced "mahamad" (not mahmad) which is very close to Muhammad.

mhmd3.gif

Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary defines "
mhmd.gif
" as "lovely, coveted one, precious one, praised one". The correct way to say "praised one" in Arabic is Muhammad, so this is the same word!

As was stated before, the name Muhammad (
mhmd.gif
) and the word mahmad (
mhmd.gif
) are spelled exactly the same way in Hebrew, and both have the same meaning. The only reason they are pronounced different is because of vowels (dots and lines) introduced in the eigth century.

The Hebrew word for praised one is
mhmd3.gif


The Hebrew word for Muhammad (the Arabic Prophet) is
mhmd4.gif


In conclusion, if Songs of Solomon chapter 5 is discussing a man to come after that time, it is without a doubt Muhammad, as it even mentions his name and gives his description. Any Christian who believes Jesus is the Messiah, and believes that books were sent down by God after the TaNaKh (Jewish Bible), then surely they should take into account what they just read here, and consider the Qur'an before making a decision. Solomon


As shown above, you can show people as much as you like, but if they don't accept, then it's not my problem.

Christians have yet to explain who came from Saudi Arabia with a new Covenant, who was told to read, and said, 'I can't read', who stirred up jealousy, who came with 10,000 Saints and a fiery law. Who came from the tents of Kedar in Arabia, from the blessed house of GOD open day and night.

You have your own pagan ties to be concerned with.

Islam is Paganism in Monotheistic Gift Wrapping Paper.
Rather than care what Trinitarians like to think, I prefer to relay the words of one of Judaism's Greatest Scholars:

Maimonides’ firm character could be seen right from the prologue to his legal opinion: he does not consider it proper to repay Muslims with the same coin “for lies which they invent falsely about us” and to take revenge by lying about their religious persuasion and to smear them with a label of idolatry: “Muslims are not idolaters at all. <Idolatry> has already been cut from their mouth and heart and they are totally and properly committed to One God (yiḥud raʾuy) without flaw.”62 Maimonides rejects the first charge with the argument that although these places have been ancient shrines of paganish gods, Muslims who pray in their direction (qibla) and make pilgrimages towards them today, do not have idolatry in mind at all, and so they are not even considered idolaters by the Jewish law:

“And if somebody says that the house that they praise (al-Kaʿba) is an idolatrous shrine and an idol is hidden in it, which their fathers used to worship – what’s wrong about it? Those who prostrate themselves today in its direction, have on their minds only God (eyn libbam ella leshamayim). The sages in Sanhedrin had already explained that if somebody prostrates themselves in the direction of an idolatrous shrine whilst he thinks that it is a synagogue, his heart is turned to God 63. Equally all these Muslims today, including children and women, idolatry is cut off from their mouth... In the question of oneness of God they are not deceived at all.”64

https://www.sav.sk/journals/uploads/091911113_Boušek.pdf

Are you now budding up with Jews? That is encouraging.
They will be relieved to hear that.

As we can see, we worship the same GOD, without a hint of Duality, let alone Trinity.
 
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Muslim-UK said:

He is one of the mightiest Prophets of GOD, and has been tasked with returning to spread peace and justice within the Earth, so no not quite another Prophet at all.

Jesus was not the “one of the mightiest Prophets of GOD” he was the Son of God.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?


16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


And numerous other passages.


Muslim-UK said:

Where did he predicts his own death and resurrection?

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?


21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


Matthew 16:21 Matthew 17:9 Matthew 17:22-23 Matthew 20:18-19 Matthew 26:31-32, and numerous other passages.




Muslim-UK said:

Seated at the right hand of GOD in reference to returning perhaps. In either case, I'm sure he himself would not have said such a thing; likely words put in his mouth?



Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.


Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.


Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and


Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,


Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us


Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.


Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;


Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
 
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Muslim-UK said:

Teachings of Paul are very popular with you Christians.

Of course he is, Jesus chose Him.


Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


Muslim-UK said:

Again not something Jesus pbuh said, rather words put into his mouth by unknown Greek writers.

Your previous attempts to show That Jesus did sin are woefully inadequate.

Muslim-UK said:

I went through all of them, and no where does it give the formula: The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are Three separate beings who together are One God. Such a radical departure from thousands of years of History, yet Jesus pbuh decided not to teach and explain it?!

I am amazed that you can see Muhammad in various passages that do not clearly state his name but you refuse to see the Trinity in scripture much more clearly stated than any claimed reference to Muhammad. Your demand that the trinity as defined by your choice of words be found in scripture spelled out to your specifications is but another desperate attempt to cast doubt on the scriptures.


2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.


Matthew 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


All three are mentioned in the above passages and in other passages you have Jesus and the Father or Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


It is your blindness to the things of the Holy Scriptures taught to you by your Quran that does not allow you to see truth here.


Can I take passages from your Quran and because the wording is not to my liking or specifications make a case against you and your beliefs? I think not and you cannot get away with such tactics here!
 
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Of course he is, Jesus chose Him. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

He never met Jesus pbuh, he went to Jerusalem to learn the religion from the Disciples.

Your previous attempts to show That Jesus did sin are woefully inadequate.

What does baptism achieve? Is it not the method by which people are born again, free from sin?

I am amazed that you can see Muhammad in various passages that do not clearly state his name but you refuse to see the Trinity in scripture much more clearly stated than any claimed reference to Muhammad. Your demand that the trinity as defined by your choice of words be found in scripture spelled out to your specifications is but another desperate attempt to cast doubt on the scriptures.

Trinity is well defined, but please explain to me how you understand it.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
All three are mentioned in the above passages and in other passages you have Jesus and the Father or Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say, the 3 are all equal and to be worshipped as one God?
It is your blindness to the things of the Holy Scriptures taught to you by your Quran that does not allow you to see truth here.
Not blind at all, just show me from scripture, so I may understand.

Can I take passages from your Quran and because the wording is not to my liking or specifications make a case against you and your beliefs? I think not and you cannot get away with such tactics here!

Yes of course, and people do all the time, but it's easy to understand the context when you examine a couple of verses before and after.
 
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He never met Jesus pbuh, he went to Jerusalem to learn the religion from the Disciples.



What does baptism achieve? Is it not the method by which people are born again, free from sin?



Trinity is well defined, but please explain to me how you understand it.



Where does it say, the 3 are all equal and to be worshipped as one God?
Not blind at all, just show me from scripture, so I may understand.



Yes of course, and people do all the time, but it's easy to understand the context when you examine a couple of verses before and after.

Muslim-UK said:

He never met Jesus pbuh,

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:


4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?


5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.


16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;


Muslim-UK said:

he went to Jerusalem to learn the religion from the Disciples.

Galatians 1: 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.


12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Muslim-UK said:

What does baptism achieve?

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


The act of baptism does not clean one from sin, if you look at and compare all scripture on this you will find in Acts some believers were saved and filled with the Holy Ghost before being baptized (Acts 10:47). Baptism is and outward symbol of an inward experience “the answer of a good conscience toward God”.


Jesus was not baptized to wash away His sin, He had no sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus was showing His submission to the Father

Muslim-UK said:

Is it not the method by which people are born again, free from sin?

No, it is as explained above. Compare all scripture on a subject to arrive at the correct conclusion. Pulling one verse out of context to build a case leads to much error.

Muslim-UK said:Trinity is well defined, but please explain to me how you understand it.

God the Father , Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in unity and purpose not one in physical form.


We pray to God the Father in the Name of Jesus with the aid of the Holy Spirit. We worship God for He is worthy, the creator of all things, we give praise and thanksgiving to Jesus for His sacrifice to redeem mankind from their sin, the Holy Spirit draws men to salvation in Christ when they will listen and believe. The Holy Spirit is our teacher guide and resides in our spirit once we are born again through accepting the shed blood of Christ through His death burial and resurrection.


Muslim-UK said:Where does it say, the 3 are all equal and to be worshipped as one God?

You didn’t read where I said that in the way you have phrased it. I explained in the above comment.

Muslim-UK said:Not blind at all, just show me from scripture, so I may understand.

Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:


All mankind without Christ is blind to the things of God.


2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


There is no salvation apart from Jesus and there is no God other than Jehovah the Father of Christ.The Father and Jesus are one. Explained above.


Muslim-UK said:Yes of course, and people do all the time,

I do not need to point out what I believe to be flaws in your scripture, I know in whom I have believed and what He has done for me and how He has changed my life. So called scholarly arguments trying to denigrate the Holy Scriptures are meaningless to me. Once Christ changes you from the inside out there is nothing man can say to cast doubt on that experience.


Do you really have peace in your heart? Do really have the assurance that when you die you will be with God? What are things you believe you have to do in this life to make sure you will be with God?


Jesus made it simple.


John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


Muslim-UK said: but it's easy to understand the context when you examine a couple of verses before and after.

I don’t believe you follow your own advice when using the Holy Bible to make your points.

 
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Muslim-UK

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Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Only it doesn't stop there, The men who were travelling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Starting at verse: 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me.14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

Notice everyone fell to the ground in this version, and Saul is not struck by blindness for several days.

Then there's another version:

Acts 22:6-21: "While I was…approaching Damascus…a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying…Saul,Saul, why are you persecuting me?...those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice…I could not see because of the brightness of the light…those with me…led me to Damascus…Ananias, who was a devout man according to the law and well spoken of by all the Jews living there…said…get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name."

In this version only Saul falls down, and his companions saw the light but heard no voice. In this version he gets baptised to 'wash away his sins.'

So w
hich Version is the reader to believe? Saul alone fell to the ground; those with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one; Saul was without sight for three days; Ananias was a disciple who laid hands on Saul to restore his sight and fill him with the Holy Spirit.


Or

Saul alone fell to the ground; Those with him saw the light but did not hear the voice; No mention of three days without sight or food; Ananias was "a devout man according to the Law and liked by the Jews."

Or

Everyone fell to the ground; the voice spoke in the Hebrew Language; no blindness, no Ananias, no baptism, no restoration of sight, no “filled by Holy Spirit”!

Remember: Luke wrote all three of these accounts! It matters not that he put two of the versions into the mouth of Saul, who was by then known as Paul. LUKE WROTE ALL THREE VERSIONS!

If this was a Court case, the Judge in any Court would rule this witness unreliable.

Perhaps Paul read the account of from 2 Maccabees 3:22-29 and had some 'inspiration'.

Galatians 1: 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
As shown above, he is unreliable. The DSS say, he's the 'spouter of lies'.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Saul was baptised to remove sins. Here we read it doesn't purify ones body of dirt and filth, but cleanses the soul and consciousnesses. The key here, "baptism doth also now save us." Baptism is still needed.

Paul says, nothing but grace can save you in your faith: Ephesians 2:8-9 He's going against 1 Peter here.


The act of baptism does not clean one from sin, if you look at and compare all scripture on this you will find in Acts some believers were saved and filled with the Holy Ghost before being baptized (Acts 10:47). Baptism is and outward symbol of an inward experience “the answer of a good conscience toward God”.

Acts is written by Luke the Disciple of Paul.

Jesus was not baptized to wash away His sin, He had no sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus was showing His submission to the Father

Christians say original sin means everyone is born into it, presumably that includes Mary ra, mother of Jesus pbuh.

God the Father , Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in unity and purpose not one in physical form.

Like a football team then, or colleagues at work. different roles, but same purpose. Clear cut polytheism my friend and a sin GOD says, He will never forgive.

We pray to God the Father in the Name of Jesus with the aid of the Holy Spirit. We worship God for He is worthy, the creator of all things, we give praise and thanksgiving to Jesus for His sacrifice to redeem mankind from their sin, the Holy Spirit draws men to salvation in Christ when they will listen and believe. The Holy Spirit is our teacher guide and resides in our spirit once we are born again through accepting the shed blood of Christ through His death burial and resurrection.
I prefer to pray to GOD alone, directly with no middle beings.

All mankind without Christ is blind to the things of God. 2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Peter has been doctored by a supporter of Paul.

In Jude 1 we read about false teachers:
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now notice 2 peter 2 about the same issue:
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

So Jude is saying presently there is false teachers and whoever cooked up 2 Peter, says there were in the past, and there will be in the future. Taking the focus of Paul.

There is no salvation apart from Jesus and there is no God other than Jehovah the Father of Christ.The Father and Jesus are one. Explained above.
We can agree to disagree, you have your religion salvation in 3, and I have mine, Salvation in the ONE GOD, is neither begotten nor begets.


Do you really have peace in your heart? Do really have the assurance that when you die you will be with God? What are things you believe you have to do in this life to make sure you will be with God?
Yes of course those who worship GOD Alone, have nothing to fear. We saw in the other thread about Heaven, that Christians have very little knowledge, even though Jesus pbuh said, Allaha would send another Prophet who will abide with you forever and teach you all things. Almost 2000 years and nothing new has been revealed to you :/

Jesus made it simple.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
All Muslims believe in Jesus pbuh. In fact Islam is the only religion that believes in all the Prophets.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The Scripture here is the OT, and Muslims believe from what can be seen to be preserved and free from corruption. Remember the NT wasn't put together for decades after all the letters and Gospels were in circulation.
 
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dzheremi

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Muhammad's name appeared in Haggai 2:7 under the hebrew word mahmad (
mhmd.gif
) which means praised one (Muhammad is Arabic for praised one). It almost undoubtedly is referring to the Arabic Prophet Muhammad.

Hahahaha. Hey, Muslim UK: Did you bother to notice that when you put up reference to a Bible verse in that fashion on this board, it will come up automatically if you hover your cursor over it? When you do that, you'll see that Haggai 2:7 as referenced doesn't mention anything about a "praised one", but instead reads "And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts." This is because the word you are saying is a reference to Muhammad actually means 'desireable', 'delightful', 'valued', etc. (see Strong's Hebrew concordance here). It is also found elsewhere in the Bible in contexts that make absolutely no sense to claim could be in reference to Muhammad, such as Lamentations 1:11:

All her people sigh,
They seek bread;
They have given their valuables (מַחֲמַדֵּיהֶ֛ם - mahameddehem) for food to restore life.
“See, O Lord, and consider,
For I am scorned.”

If this word is really meant to stand for the proper name of your prophet, as the claim goes, then I suppose the people have given their Muhammads (plural!) for food.

Right.

Your abuse of the Song of Solomon can be answered similarly.

Throughout the chapter, someone is being discussed. Whomever it is, verse 15 says his "countenance (face) is as Lebanon", so this is an Arabic gentleman (or Arab looking), a Semitic man none the less.

Hahaha. Yes, because there were so many Arabs in Lebanon in the 4th/3rd century BC! :rolleyes:

Also, the term "Semitic" was invented in the late 18th century by Europeans looking to classify people by imagined 'race' according to the languages they spoke. Since it's based on language, it is still widely used in the field of linguistics, but it has no validity outside of that context. So saying Muhammad is a 'Semite' doesn't really mean anything, since so were many of the people of the ancient Middle East, including the Phoenicians -- the people who were actually inhabiting the area that is now Lebanon at the time when the Song of Solomon was presumably written.

Was Muhammad a Phoenician? No! Even if he had been from Lebanon, Pompey incorporated the territory that had been Phoenicia into the Roman Province of Syria in 65 BC -- many centuries before Muhammad. It became its own province in 200 AD, also many centuries before Muhammad.

Your view is entirely anachronistic, wrong, and religiously rather than factually driven. Stop listening to fools like Zakir Naik who peddle this idea as though it is some kind of profound insight.

According to Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary,
mhmd.gif
is correctly pronounced "mahamad" (not mahmad) which is very close to Muhammad.

mhmd3.gif

Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary defines "
mhmd.gif
" as "lovely, coveted one, precious one, praised one". The correct way to say "praised one" in Arabic is Muhammad, so this is the same word!

Oh my goodness, it's almost as though Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic languages! :p

No, but seriously, why is this supposed to be meaningful to anyone who isn't a Muslim?

This is a really silly way to argue. I have a Jordanian friend named Fady, but I don't claim that he is mentioned in the Bible just because there are passages that in it that talk about the Redeemer and that's what his name means in Arabic.

Again, if you are really going to claim that machmad in the Bible is a reference to your prophet Muhammad, then what about all of the times when that word is used where it can't possibly refer to a person? This is not a good argument

As shown above, you can show people as much as you like, but if they don't accept, then it's not my problem.

Indeed.

Christians have yet to explain who came from Saudi Arabia with a new Covenant, who was told to read, and said, 'I can't read', who stirred up jealousy, who came with 10,000 Saints and a fiery law. Who came from the tents of Kedar in Arabia, from the blessed house of GOD open day and night.

What's there to explain about Islamic delusions? You think Muhammad is all over the Bible (even though Muslims also argue that the Bible is 'corrupted'...funny how that stops once they think they can use it to support their own religion), we do not, and since it's our book we don't listen to you or the sub-apologetics of the people who argue in this fashion without even understanding what they are saying.

And Maimonides' opinion on Muslims or Islam has nothing to do with anything. Since when is any Christian required to heed what anyone from a non-Christian religion says about people of another non-Christian religion? That's irrelevancy squared.
 
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