Flat Earth and Earth-centric solar system according to the Bible

Quid est Veritas?

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1. No

2. Have you ever heard of Ludwig Wittgenstein and Jacques Derrida?

Let me explain. If we use the English language we speak of the sun coming up, high noon and sunset. Implicitly by saying this we are using the underlying idiom of English which assumes a geocentric world. Does this mean I believe the world to be so?
If I examine the question, reason and empiric observation will tell me the world is a spheroid, since we can travel around it, sunrays hit at oblique angles in a hole and outside it, we first see the uppermost part of a tall object etc.
By thinking thus, I am applying a different thought paradigm, that of Empiricism or Scientific Method. Does this invalidate the idiom of the English language? No, for if I talked of earthturn or such, that would be incorrect English and not be understood anyway.
So both concepts are held, with one in use when I converse, but when I stop to examine the question, I would opt for the other. This does not mean either is 'wrong' for if I am working from a viewpoint of Scientific Method heliocentrism would be, but it would be wrong in English and vice versa. This is where Wittgenstein steps in. For a simplistic way to see what he said is 'Meaning is Use'. So by using geocentrism in English it is correct and fully so in that instance, for the meaning of words are indistinguishable from the way they are used. The same holds when speaking Scientifically.
A good way to explain it is with a portrait. A description of a portrait is never a part of it, only the portrait itself is. I can say the portrait shows a sun shining on a field, but my sentence would never replace nor become a part of the portrait, which holds its own underlying values. Its existence is independant of my description thereof.
Likewise if I apply a Scientific description to the English term 'Sunrise', it changes nothing to the meaning, use or truth of the term. It is inherently just a description thereof, a separate and additional truth construct, which changes nothing to the inherent meaning when someone speaks of a 'Sunrise' even if both parties are cognizant of the fact that the sun does not in fact rise.

Now lets deconstruct the Biblical passages in turn. What we find is a similar underlying idiom of the firmament etc. as held by most Semitic peoples. This then functions in a similar manner to sunset or sunrise in normal English conversation.
It is correct to speak thus in context, but it does not mean that it would be correct to use it in all instances, similar to how it would be incorrect to retroactively import scientific terminology into older texts.

So I fully accept the wording of the Biblical texts and all the implications that go along with it, yet I do not feel this means that I must jetisson the Scientific explanation either. In essence, both can be held concurrently provided you understand the context you are working in, like an English speaker implicitly understands the language's Idiom.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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PapaZoom said:
I honestly don't give it much thought. I can't believe there are actually people in the world that believe the world was flat. Is flat.
When I checked a Bing search (don't use google) I found quite a few, what seem to be serious, flat Earth sites. I didn't count them. There is good news; at least ONE site with video had posted a disclaimer they have changed their point of view. (Hooray!)

PapaZoom said:
And I don't see how such a conversation can even matter in the first place. What's the point? It's a curiosity mostly. Unless I"m just too dull to see the bigger picture.
Your suspicions are founded; there is a bigger picture and I've obscured it intentionally.
 
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-57

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You don't comprehend 'learn to read'? Yet you seem to understand English. "Adding"? By ignoring all the questions? I asked if you agreed with the premise and then why? or why not?

I gather you do not agree, okay? Or am I being presumptuous?

Now for the why? Could it be observation and (vicarious) experience? Yes, I'm putting words in your mouth - er, fingers - but I really desire some actual opinions instead of hints and innuendo.

My opinion was....if you can fly around the earth....it's round. Can you not defend your position in light of that factual knowledge?
 
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PapaZoom

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When I checked a Bing search (don't use google) I found quite a few, what seem to be serious, flat Earth sites. I didn't count them. There is good news; at least ONE site with video had posted a disclaimer they have changed their point of view. (Hooray!)

Your suspicions are founded; there is a bigger picture and I've obscured it intentionally.

Well then I'll hang around until the big reveal.
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Archie the Preacher

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Quid est Veritas? said:
Thank you for the clarity.

Quid est Veritas? said:
2. Have you ever heard of Ludwig Wittgenstein and Jacques Derrida?
Not by name, but I am familiar with the ideas of language coloring understanding and 'deconstruction'. (Tangential: The Languages of Pao, by Jack Vance deals with the idea of language - the "Sapir-Whorf hypothesis" - is used.)

Quid est Veritas? said:
So I fully accept the wording of the Biblical texts and all the implications that go along with it, yet I do not feel this means that I must jetisson the Scientific explanation either. In essence, both can be held concurrently provided you understand the context you are working in, like an English speaker implicitly understands the language's Idiom.
You've jumped ahead, but I suppose that's the way experiments go. Good thinking and summation at any rate.
 
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-57

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Let me explain. If we use the English language we speak of the sun coming up, high noon and sunset. Implicitly by saying this we are using the underlying idiom of English which assumes a geocentric world. Does this mean I believe the world to be so?

Hmmmmmmmm....seems like every day all the weather forcasters on TV seem to believe in a flat earth.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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-57 said:
My opinion was....if you can fly around the earth....it's round. Can you not defend your position in light of that factual knowledge?
I wanted an answer, not an illustration. Okay. It's Sunday. I apologize for being a grump and snippy.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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-57 said:
Hmmmmmmmm....seems like every day all the weather forcasters on TV seem to believe in a flat earth.
You have a point. But as QeV explained, the phrase is a 'figure of speech' or an idiom. Most of us use that particular idiom at one time or other.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Now. As Quid est Veritas has released the feline from the collapsible container, here's the last question and the heart of the discussion:

Since the wording of the Bible verses are as presented - at least - in the KJV and from what I can tell in the original languages as well; how can any of us justify not accepting those verses as unimpeachable truth, as written? Phrased differently, but the same question: How can any of us claim to believe the Bible and simultaneously deny the actuality of the presented statements?
 
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-57

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I wanted an answer, not an illustration. Okay. It's Sunday. I apologize for being a grump and snippy.

Why is that not an answer?

Here's another....if you draw a line on a flat earth and travell a great distance...stop...turn exactly 90 deg...travel the great diastnce again.....stop....once again turn 90 deg...travel an equal great distance....stop....then do it for a fourth time, you will return to where you began.

On a spherical earth you only need to travel the great distance 3 times to return to the beginning. This is what we experience on earth....which is yet another indicator the earth is a sphere.
 
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JackRT

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Now. As Quid est Veritas has released the feline from the collapsible container, here's the last question and the heart of the discussion:

Since the wording of the Bible verses are as presented - at least - in the KJV and from what I can tell in the original languages as well; how can any of us justify not accepting those verses as unimpeachable truth, as written? Phrased differently, but the same question: How can any of us claim to believe the Bible and simultaneously deny the actuality of the presented statements?

The answer to that question depends very much upon just how you regard the bible. Literal and inerrant or not?
 
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Archie the Preacher

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JackRT said:
The answer to that question depends very much upon just how you regard the bible. Literal and inerrant or not?
Jack, as gently - and as literally - as I can say this, the answer I want from you depends on how YOU regard the Bible. I know how I regard it.

How do YOU believe the Earth is round and moves while simultaneously seeing the various scriptures in their actual state?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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This is the proof supporting the Ptolemaic Model of the solar system - the stars didn’t count - and the official Christian version of the solar system (at the time).

It was also accepted by most pagan astronomers; it was the standard astronomical model of the Roman Empire. The Ptolemaic model was more or less consistent with evidence as it stood at the time.

There's actually an excellent article that I think deals with this question quite thoroughly called "Evangelicals and Crackpot Science". Flat earth and geocentrism are the first topics covered there.
 
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CGL1023

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Isaiah 40:22 (King James Version) It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

This verse is extracted from a larger portion - more or less the whole fortieth chapter of Isaiah discussing the Lord God and His comparison to idols. It is, however, the first clause of verse 22 which is plucked out and presented as proof the world is flat. A circle is a two dimensional object and therefore the Earth is flat.

For those who wish to further study the belief, do a web search for ‘Biblical proof of flat Earth’ and dig right in. There are far too many sites and references for me to list here.

It is still believed; look at the videos on the subject.

Isaiah 38:8 (King James Version) Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

This is part of the account of King Hezekiah’s sickness and impending death, which was postponed by the Lord. It is also found in Second Kings 20 and reports the same incidents.

According to Isaiah 38:8, the Sun ‘..returned ten degrees…” This is a clear statement the Sun moves around the Earth, not the Earth around the Sun. It says so in the Bible!

Other Bible quotes demonstrating the same truth:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

I’m probably missing some, but again, feel free to check on your own. It’s too voluminous for me to detail.

This is the proof supporting the Ptolemaic Model of the solar system - the stars didn’t count - and the official Christian version of the solar system (at the time). Departing from this accepted and Bible proofed version was what put Galileo under house arrest and kept Nicolas Copernicus from publishing his findings during his life.

No nonsense about “But that was the Roman Catholic Church!” The proof was the infallible and unquestionable word of the Holy Bible!

Both of these ideas are found in the text of the Bible.

So here are the discussion questions:

One. Do you believe the Earth is flat and stationary? (Yes or no.)

Two. Upon what grounds do you base your opinion, decision, choice? To be transparent, I am specifically interested in why do you not accept the simple and straightforward wording of Holy Writ.

Would you would call the moon flat, extending the idea of the flat earth? Do you call the earth the center of the universe, as the medieval Catholic Church taught from their understanding of scripture at the time? I am trying to understand how far the flat earth concept goes because a flat earth would change the laws of physics and astronomy.

Because I don't believe any of the above, I couldn't get behind the idea of a flat earth. Instead I would doublecheck my understanding of scripture.

With a flat earth we would have to scrap the space program.
 
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SeventyOne

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I really kind of have an issue with this topic. When I was first presented with its "details" a bit over a year ago, I did a bit of research on my own to see if it correlated with the claim.

My idea was if the earth was flat or disc shape, then boats traveling around the Antarctic region would log more nautical miles in travel than other boats circumnavigating the world by other paths. I chose to seek out sources without bias in the flat earth debate, specifically blogs by those sailing their own private boats around the world, who tracked their trips daily in miles traveled. (It admittedly took some time for me to find these sources, but it was worth the effort.)

Those who set out to circle Antarctica, logged far fewer (thousands fewer) nautical miles than those traveling by other paths, which should not be the case in a flat or disc-shaped world, simply because the circumference of that circle would be the greatest option available.

Now, if a flat-earther would like to tell me how the longest travel path available on a flat earth can be achieved in fewer actual nautical miles than "shorter" travel paths, then I'll listen again. But I haven't had any attempts so far to explain the mathematical quandary.
 
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JackRT

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Jack, as gently - and as literally - as I can say this, the answer I want from you depends on how YOU regard the Bible. I know how I regard it.

How do YOU believe the Earth is round and moves while simultaneously seeing the various scriptures in their actual state?

If we examine our universe there are a number of observations that must be consistently explained:

1. tidal effects on earth

2. moon's near side "locked' to earth

3. phases of the moon

4. retardation of the moon's 'rising'

4. seasons of the earth

5. seasonal 24 hour days and nights in the arctic and antarctic

6. coreolis effects on earth

7. Foucault's pendulum

8. precession of the earth's axis

9. apparent daily rotation of the "fixed stars" about the pole star

10. motion of the "wandering stars" (planets) including retrograde motion

11. earth-moon centre of gravity orbits

12. eclipses of the sun, moon and planets

13. northern and southern lights

14. meteors, asteroids and comets

15. moons and/or rings around other planets

16. there are certainly other effects that I have missed

There is only one self consistent model that explains all of these observations and that is the present cosmology of our solar system. This does not explain why these objects behave as they do, it only provides a very refined model that accounts for all the observed effects.

Now add into this the experimentally verified non-relativistic laws of motion and of gravity, known as Newtonian or classical mechanics, and we now have the why that explains the model in a near perfect manner. It is so successful that it has enabled us to send people into earth and moon orbits, to the moon itself and even return to earth. We have been able to navigate probes to all the planets and beyond. People have stood on our moon and observed our planet rotating in front of them in real time. Any other cosmology finds it necessary to suspend known laws of science, hypothesize supernatural intervention and invoke a conspiracy theory extending over centuries involving tens of millions of people a great many of whom are Christian.

In Old Testament times it is certainly true that they regarded the earth as flat in a three tiered universe --- flat with a sky-dome (the firmament) overhead. Just like the rapture theory and the trinity theory, the flat earth worldview is nowhere stated explicitly but it is alluded to in many places. There are also many old testament and even a few new testament stories that are only to be understood in a flat earth context. Generally this flat earth was regarded as circular but we are in places told that it has four corners and is supported by pillars and that there are storehouses for the snow and hail. Of course this seems very primitive to us today but we must remember that these scriptures come out of a far less sophisticated culture. A culture that was deeply suspicious of anything Gentile. It may well be that some of the educated elite were aware of the Greek notion of a spherical world but with an illiteracy rate of about 90% the common people certainly were not. The scriptures were most likely written with the naivety of the common people in mind and used language that would not stretch their credulity too far.

In New Testament times, the young Christian church had a similar suspicion of paganism. Over a period of several centuries it systematically destroyed all things pagan. Temples, shrines, academies, libraries and universities were pulled down and burned. Their priests, teachers and professors were tortured and executed often in front of bloodthirsty Christian mobs. They destroyed not just spiritual works but any book even the slightest bit tainted by paganism even if it was on astronomy, medicine, engineering, technology, mathematics, geography, history or architecture. This massive loss of the underpinnings of civilization contributed in part to the decline and fall of the Roman Empire and the subsequent thousand years of the Dark Ages. In AD380 after a yet another wave of persecution, the 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ended the Eleusinian Mysteries and announced the predominance of mental darkness over the human race. How very ironic and prophetic!

It is little wonder then that the flat earth notion persisted so long and that the bible was used to support it. After all the flat earth was the biblical worldview. Should it concern us that the bible supported this notion? Not at all! We do not need to rush to its defense and use weasel words to somehow prove to ourselves that the bible authors had the same worldview that we do. We must realize that these authors lived in a historical context and that the language and ideas that they used fit that context as well.
 
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sdowney717

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My thoughts just from living down on this earth, the sun moves in an arc over the earth, so people would naturally think the circle is arced over top of them, so the circle is not flat laid down, but upright, with God and heaven above this circular arc and people on earth below.

Notice it says in this way 'It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth'
It is as if God is sitting on a vertical circle, above or over top of the earth.

If you read the circle as laid down flat and describing the earth as a flat circle as pertaining to just the earth, then God is sitting on the earth, like sprawled all over top of this circle and that makes no sense at all.

The earth also orbits in a mostly circular orbit around the sun, so naturally God's heaven is above the physical universe, so He would sit on top of the physical universe, so then on top of the circle of the earth.

And the scriptures are not a science textbook either.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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I am somewhat surprised no one has responded in support of the flat, geocentric Earth party. (Happily surprised is probably correct.) I though one or two at least of the hardcore sorts would show up and make fun of all us non-believers.

For any who may have missed it, I am not a flat or geocentric Earth supporter. I find the evidence, pictures, descriptions and mathematical constructions of the Earth and Solar System (by the "Evil", "Satanic" and fraudulent 'scientists') quite compelling. I also find the records of ocean going vessels quite revealing. (Thank you, Seventy-One; that aspect had not occurred to me but it is very telling.)

The repeated idea of the Bible not being a scientific text is also very cogent. But not universally accepted (by the Flat Earth and other factions of Christians, for instance.)

However, there are still Bible passages which give rise to the idea of a flat and geocentric Earth. (If not absolute proof, at least 'evidence' of the status.) How can a believing Christian accept those passages as 'honest' and God inspired and yet not accept them as ultimate truth?

Anyone venture a thought? We're pretty much in agreement about the 'flat-geocentric' idea. Let's move on. How do we 'have our cake and eat it, too'?
 
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