General Question for Fundamentalists

Yes, there are! While I don't identify with a "fundamentalism movement", I do value "all the counsel of God" as He enjoins us, and I appreciate the true teaching of the "dispensations" ---ages of God's administration. I could speak in greater detail if one wishes to contact me for some thoughts.

I most certainly do ahdere to the Fundamentalist movement and I do believe in the dispensations or the various ages in whiich God relates to mankind.

DeaconDean said:

Are there any "Fundamentalists" here who adhere to some form of Dispensationalism?

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I would call myself a Biblicist and a Dispensationalist.

im afraid i do not agree with the the Dispensationalist view. I do know its fairly popular among evangelicals, and it would seem especially so among fundamentalists in particular, but theologically i have never been able to feel comfortable with it personally.

DeaconDean said:

Why not?

Has God not dealt with man differently during the course of time as marked by the covenants?

God Bless

Till all are one.

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No i do not believe He has..While God has certainly allowed man to enter into covenant relationship with him several times throughout history, i find that from Adam until today the one requirement on mans behalf has always been faith.
Abraham was justified by faith, apart from all works. He had faith in the promise. During the 'dispensation of the law' (if ull allow me use of the term for the sake of this discourse) the law did not save, nor can it (see Romans 3:20). Faith in the Promise was the feature of Mosaic Covenant that was effectual. (Hebrews 10:4 makes clear that animal sacrifice cannot remove sin)
Further reading brings us to Hebrews chapter 11, wherewe are told from Abel and onward it was by faith that they did all that was effectual. In that way I see no two ways in which God has dealt with man. Finally we learn from Malachi 3:6 that God does not change and therefore i have to conclude that He has not changed his dealings with man. What u would call the 'Dispensation of Grace' is the time from Christ unto this day..but i find in scripture that grace has been being dispensed since God slew the first two beasts to clothe Adam and His Wife. Was it not Grace that spared Noah, and with him all of us? Also Grace spared Israel during the famine in Canaan and delivered them into Egypt by the hand of Joseph..and out of Egypt again by the hand of Moses.
I can understand many folks feel differently and i was once a dispensationalist, i was raised as one..but i cannot see a clear division anywhere from Adam to Christ that i can say God ever dealt with man in any other way..and Praise Him that he has not, because any other way than freely saving those imputed with the gift of faith would leave us all woefully lost and in danger of certain frightful judgement
By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: <--- I praise Him that it is, or else i Id be lost forever.

DeaconDean said:

How do you account for the previous 6 covenants being one of "works" while the new covenant is one of grace?

Furthermore, the covenant given to Adam, was not nullified by the one given to Noah, rather, new conditions were attached. Abrahams covenant did not nullify Noah's, it just added new conditions. And so on, and soon. Right down to the New Covenant establish in Christ on better promises.

Each covenant marked a new "age" in how God dealt with man.

Even I disagree with some things dispensationalism teaches. However, this is not one of them.

Oh well, to each his own I guess.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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"The first germinal publication of the everlasting covenant is found in Genesis 3:15 “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” Thus, immediately after the Fall, God announced to the serpent his ultimate doom through the work of the Mediator, and revealed unto sinners the channel through whom alone salvation could flow to them. The continual additions which God subsequently made to the revelation He gave in Genesis 3:15 were, for a considerable time, largely through covenants He made with the fathers, covenants which were both the fruit of His eternal plan of mercy and the gradual revealing of the same unto the faithful. Only as those two facts are and held fast by us are we in any position to appreciate and perceive the force of those subordinate covenants." A. W. Pink.

" The Divine Covenants" http://grace-ebooks.com/library/Arthur W. Pink/Divine Covenants - Arthur W. Pink.pdf

DeaconDean said:

You do realize that at one point Arthur W. Pink, as much as I read and respect him, was a Dispensationalist and a proponent of "free grace"?

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Yes Pink was a Dispensationalist at one point. He came out of Dipensationalism after much serious study of the Scriptures.

I am a proponent of "Free Grace" actually but I suspect you mean something other than what you know I believe. When you say free grace what exactly do you think they believe?

What I was merely pointing out is this:

"Dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1—3:7), Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22), Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32), Promise (Genesis 12:1—Exodus 19:25), Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 2:4), Grace (Acts 2:4—Revelation 20:3), and the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Each dispensation includes a recognizable pattern of how God worked with people living in the dispensation. That pattern is 1) a responsibility, 2) a failure, 3) a judgment, and 4) grace to move on."

Source

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I am very aware of what Dispensationalists believe and own several books and charts by men such a Wolvard, Ryrie, and one by a man held in high esteem by Dispensationalists whose name escapes me at the moment. I have made a point to learn about Dispenastionalism. I hold to a Baptist Covenant Theology as you know. I am convinced that the Scripture are not divided but are a whole which is seen in each covenant being a clearer revelation of the one eternal covenant of grace. There are only two actual covenants in which describes God's dealing with men: the covenant of works made with Adam through all mankind was damned and the everlasting covenant, the New Covenant, by which man is saved. Even immediately after the Fall God dealt in grace with Adam and Eve by showing that blood must be shed by a suitable sacrifice and then clothing them with that skin typifying the sacrifice of Christ and imputed righteousness to all who are found in the everlasting covenant made before the foundation of the world. All the other covenants are subordinate to those two and each reveals something of the everlasting covenant.

For example:

Between Adam and Noah, man still had to work for his bread by the sweat of his brow. This was still happening at the time of Noah. Noah, endured safely, the deluge. However, after the flood, God made another "covenant" where He said He said:

"I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” -Gen. 9:11

Did the Noahic covenant make the Adamic covenant null and void?

No sir, the only thing that changed was the manner in which God dealt with man.

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I would disagree. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Gen. 6:8 God didn't change the way He dealt with man but made a covenant with Noah that not only was one sided but had a sign to show that it was to last until the end of time. Actually you read of the rainbow over the throne of Christ in Rev. 4:3 which again shows the everlasting nature of the covenant. Noah had no part in that covenant to do anything in order for the covenant to be kept. It was a covenant of grace and made to show the Eternal Covenant made between the Father, Son and Spirit before the world began in which His chosen people would be saved. The Noahtic covenant didn't change anything the broken covenant with Adam is still in effect on all those not found in Christ. Rom. 5:12-21

My only point is that after the expulsion, until the deluge, God dealt with man one way, one dispensation of time. After the flood, God changed the manner in which He dealt with man up until the Abrahamic covenant. Thus ending another "dispensation" of time.

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I disagree. God didn't deal with man one way and then another He only deals with man by two federal heads: Adam and Christ. If you are found in Adam you are damned and if you are found in Christ you are saved forever. While it is true that time passed between the subordinate covenants none of those covenants changed how God dealt with man but only how they were to understand and believe in the One who was promised. Each of the covenants pictures Christ and His salvation. They are not dispensations in which the Bible is divided. When you divide the Bible you make it to not be one theme or message but many and that just isn't rightly dividing(understanding, grasping) the Word of truth. The Bible isn't a series of "ages" it is the story of God in Christ from beginning to end.

Even Paul speaks of a "dispensation".

"εἰς οἰκονομίαν τοῦ πληρώματος τῶν καιρῶν, ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι τὰ πάντα ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἐπὶ τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς: ἐν αὐτῷ, " -Eph. 1:11 GNT

"1) due measure 2) a measure of time, a larger or smaller portion of time, hence: 2a) a fixed and definite time, the time when things are brought to crisis, the decisive epoch waited for 2b) opportune or seasonable time 2c) the right time 2d) a limited period of time 2e) to what time brings, the state of the times, the things and events of time "

And you know as well as I do what "measure of time", what "decisive epoch", what a "limited period of time", what "dispensation" we live in.

The dispensation of Grace.

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I think the the reference is Eph. 1:10 just for those who may want to look it up. Yes it is an age or measure of time but one use of the word, and it is called a dispensation in the KJV which was an old English word which didn't mean anything like what Dispensationalist mean but simply a set time. Paul in no way is using the word to divide the ages. He is simply speaking of that appointed time when all things will be brought together.

And someday, this dispensation too shall cease.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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My brother you and I will have to disagree on Dispensationalism. I wish that I could convince you to see how the Bible is not divided but one whole. I pray that the Lord give you much light to understand.

I love you anyway. I am your brother and servant in Christ, twin.

DeaconDean said:

Brother, you know me, and I think I know the kind of man you are.

Your a God-fearing man, a goodly man.

There are few people on this forum whom I hold in as high esteem as you. I do seriously pay close attention to what you say. And I can think of no other person whose respect I have tried to earn more than yours.

So before this can become an obstacle, may I ask you one question?

What in particular do you dislike about "dispensationalism"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Everything.

I don't like how they tend to be so literal in their interpretations that they miss Christ especially in the Old Testament. I don't like how they separate the church from Israel. I don't like their disjointed premil eschatology. I have no problem with historic premil, Gill held that view, but Dispensational premil is a jump through hoops that no one can really follow. I don't like how they divide the Scriptures. It males them to be disjointed and removes the one message that actually ties all Scripture together.

You might notice that the Lord Jesus and the Apostles were never so literal when they interpreted the Scriptures. All preached Christ from the Old Testament using a spiritual interpretation which was honest with the literal as well.

I am deeply humbled by your comments and rest assured that you are pretty much the only person who leans toward Dispensationalism that I honestly and highly respect and admire.

twin1954 said:

I don't like how they tend to be so literal in their interpretations that they miss Christ especially in the Old Testament.

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You will find that sound Dispensationalists see Christ throughout the OT beginning with Genesis 1:1.

I don't like how they separate the church from Israel.

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Since God sees the Church and redeemed and restored Israel as two separate entities, perhaps you will need to go back and take the OT more seriously.

I don't like their disjointed premil eschatology.

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What's disjointed with believing that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints? That's about as logical as you can get.

I don't like how they divide the Scriptures.

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Scripture must be taken in its plain literal sense unless there is compelling reason to believe that a metaphor has been presented.

It males them to be disjointed and removes the one message that actually ties all Scripture together.

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I believe your reasons for objecting to Dispensationalism are purely subjective, which certainly won't help you arrive at the truth.

Job8 said:

You will find that sound Dispensationalists see Christ throughout the OT beginning with Genesis 1:1.

Since God sees the Church and redeemed and restored Israel as two separate entities, perhaps you will need to go back and take the OT more seriously.

What's disjointed with believing that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints? That's about as logical as you can get.

Scripture must be taken in its plain literal sense unless there is compelling reason to believe that a metaphor has been presented.

I believe your reasons for objecting to Dispensationalism are purely subjective, which certainly won't help you arrive at the truth.

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I have arrived at the truth. I interpret the Scriptures just as the Lord Jesus and the Apostles did. It wasn't a woodenly literal interpretation that can be done by a third grader but a spiritual one that must have the Spirit to be understood.

A strict literal interpretation was what the Scribes and Pharisees had and missed Christ because of it.

I am a dispensationalist, and I dare say many would call me a fundamentalist. However, the only dispensations I take much notice of are "the Law" and "Grace". These are essential to understand how to live the Christian life. It seems to me indisputable that Jesus very often spoke of the necessity of works, markedly different from Paul's Gospel of salvation by grace through faith, apart from any works. The reason Jesus spoke of the need for works, is that He was speaking to people who were under the Mosaic Law. Whilst He repeatedly challenged them to keep the Law, He was using it as it was intended; to bring people to the realisation that they could not make themselves acceptable to God through their own self-righteousness. Only when mankind understands that, are they ready to cry out for a salvation based not on their efforts, but on His.

This is the message I get from the bible.

Man is a sinner in that man does what pleases him, not God or anyone else. God does not want to live through eternity, and beyond, with people he He can't trust not to hurt others or himself. God doesn't want to have to watch over man forever, He wants to be able to trust man for the wonders that exist after this life and this universe when man steps outside of time with God. And that's the purpose of life, to weed out those who just can't get along.

God let's man alone to see how he'll do. At the end everyone is killing each other, stealing, raping, etc... So God takes the last good men left, Noah and his sons, wipes the slate clean and starts over. This time God gives one commandment, go forth and multiply, because sinful man were breeding loke rabbits while just men were honoring God (kinda like the movie idiotocracy).

God leaves man to his own devices again. Things happen, God decides after some time to tell men what not to do.

So God gives us the 10 commandments which basically say don't hurt me or each other.

Try not to do this, when you fail come to me for forgiveness and we'll try again. Man has a sinful nature and it's something we have to continually work on, a narrow path if you would. God gives ordinances to the people he's coming to be a man as, the jews. Most deal with covering sins looking forward to the messiah, God, some dealing qith health reasons, dietary laws.

Time goes on, man (jews) start following the letter of the law, when they do, and not the spirit. They may not be doing the things they're not supposed to do but they aren't doing the things they should.

God comes down to earth as the Messiah and this time says what to do. Treat others as you would yourself. Love each other, love God.

Which gives us today. We have the 10 commandments, what not to do, and the golden rule, treat others as you treat yourself.

So what does man do? We say well, God died for me, the price is paid, not only do I not have to follow the commandments I don't have to be good to others either.

The next time God comes it won't be to give us any new rules or to tell us how to treat each other it will be the end. The saved in heaven are countless. Man has pretty much destroyed the world. We are back to everyone doing what pleases them instead of thinking about others or God.

God will give everyone one last chance to turn from their evil ways before the end. The end is very near. The two witnesses are living in the world today.

That's what I have learned from the bible and my personal walk with God.

Me.

I'm dispensationalist.

My dispensations are as follows!

- Pre-Adamic Era (Need more research on this! Not sure if I believe it)
- Genesis 1, days 1-7
- The Cursed Genesis Era to the Flood
- The Flood to the Tower of Babel
- Tower of Babel to the lamb's blood of Passover for Israel
- Israel to Messiah's Birth
- Messiah's Birth to Christ's Death (Ministry of Christ included)
- 3.5 days when God's word was silent ... upon these 3.5 days, all creation hinged, past, present and future
- 40 days resurrected Christ... here the dispensation of the church began in John 20:22 ... wonder what day that was??? This is where we have our first born-again believer in the assembly of the body of Christ!!
- After he ascends until Pentecost happens in Acts 2... not sure on the timings of how many days this was.
- Pentecost until now... except that during this period there is revealed in God's word, plans and prophecies concerning this era of the dispensation, so you might like to break that down and look at it, however, covenants have not changed nor have they been altered in any way or further made manifest, except God's promise for greater rain and glory for the later days ... so we might choose to put that in as a dispensation of different measures of grace based on the era and move of God, but those movements being the result of the response of the church itself to what God has done. So really, it's the same as it was since Pentecost
- Last days... I don't know timelines for this. Just 7 years is required. Does have many dispensations in it
- 1,000 year reign
- Final temptation and rebellion period
- Eternity