The Easter that was not Easter

ewq1938 · Apr 30, 2016

keltoi said:
Considering I used the word Easter 5 times in the section you quoted I'm now led to believe you're simply here to bait people.

When I said you are avoiding the word Easter I was obviously not speaking about using it in a sentence lol

keltoi · Apr 30, 2016

ewq1938 said:
When I said you are avoiding the word Easter I was obviously not speaking about using it in a sentence lol

Stop beating around the bush, you need to be clear with what you are saying. Say what you mean and mean what you say because what is obvious to you, things like neo-pagan fairy tales being reality, are not obvious to others. I'm still waiting for you to provide proof of your assertion. It is obvious, means it is reality, that you can't because you don't have any.

ewq1938 · Apr 30, 2016

keltoi said:
Stop beating around the bush, you need to be clear with what you are saying.

It's cool. That you didn't understand it speaks volumes.

Arcangl86 · Apr 30, 2016

ewq1938 said:
It's cool. That you didn't understand it speaks volumes.

All it says is that you aren't being clear.

ViaCrucis · May 2, 2016

Arcangl86 said:
So you are saying you don't understand the origins of the eggs huh? They are a symbol of the Resurrection. The egg, which looks like a stone, represents the tomb and the chicken inside is new life. They were originally painted only red IIRC. As for the rabbits that was a medieval development, and I cannot remember the origins of it ATM.

The hare had several symbolic elements, a common one was that the hare represented virginity (there was a misconception that hares/rabbits could produce offspring without sex) and so the hare can be seen included in images of the Virgin Mary. The hare was also a symbol of our salvation, Proverb 30:26 says "the badgers are a people without power, yet they make their homes in the rocks;", the Hebrew word shafan translated as "badgers" in the NRSV probably refers to the hyrax, St. Jerome translated it into Latin as lepusculus, "the hare" or "the rabbit"; likewise Psalm 104:18 says much the same about the hyrax/rabbit/hare/shafan finding safety on top of the rock.

The following is from St. Augustine's exposition on Psalm 104 (well, 103 in the Latin),

"What of the hare? What of the hedgehog? The hare is a small and weak animal: the hedgehog is also prickly: the one is a timid animal, the other is covered with prickles. What do the prickles signify, except sinners? He who sins daily, although not great sins, is covered over with the smallest prickles. In his timidity he is a hare: in his being covered with the minutest sins, he is a hedgehog: and he cannot hold those lofty and perfect commandments. For "the loftiest hills are for the stags." What then? Do these perish? No. For so "is the rock the refuge for the hedgehogs and the hares." For the Lord is a refuge for the poor. Place that rock upon the land, it is a refuge for hedgehogs, and for hares: place it on the sea, it is the home of the coot. Everywhere the rock is useful. Even in the hills it is useful: for the hills without the rock's foundation would fall into the deep...."

Taking the rock as symbolic of Christ our rock and refuge, and the hare as symbolic of us in our weakness and timidity, Augustine sees here our salvation in Christ.

The hare becomes, then, a symbol of ourselves, specifically of our salvation upon Christ our rock.

How the hare, a symbol of Mary's virginity or of our refuge in Christ, came to become the Osterhase (Easter hare) in Germany is a good question; though the game of having women and children search for eggs which symbolized the women going to the empty tomb dates at least to the 16th century (Luther was particularly fond of this so I've read). The idea of the Osterhase dates to, I think, about the 17th century.

It's safe to say that whatever pagan connotations the hare had in pre-Christian Europe didn't survive, and the hare's place in Christian iconography and symbolism was already well established before there was an Osterhase at all.

It also remains a complete fiction that the Anglo-Saxon Eostre was associated with hares and/or eggs--there's simply no evidence of this in the material we have (Bede), and is just a bit of 19th century speculation which continues to brandied about as fact.

-CryptoLutheran

ewq1938 · May 2, 2016

Rabbits represent sexual activity and reproduction not virginity. They are well known to reproduce very quickly. And Eggs are a symbol of reproduction. All symbols used in relation to fertility Goddesses which is what Easter is about. It mocks the death and resurrection of Christ by introducing these pagan things along with it.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/29870/are-rabbits-prolific-everybody-says

The real wow factor of rabbit reproduction is how fast they get around to breeding, and how often they can do it. The average rabbit reaches sexual maturity at 3-8 months old, and they have the rest of their 9-to-12+ years to get it on (though egg/sperm production drops off at around 3 years). Their breeding season lasts three-quarters of the year, and the does don't have an estrous or "heat" cycle. They're more or less ready to mate all the time. They don't have a menstrual cycle, either, so there's no special window during which pregnancy can happen. Does are actually induced ovulators, which means that intercourse stimulates ovulation. After 40 seconds of magic, the egg is emitted for fertilization.

Rabbits gestate for only 30 days, and usually have litters of between 4 and 12 babies (kits), depending on the breed. Once the babies are born, the doe can mate and get pregnant again as soon as the following day. If they maintain a pace like that and all the kits survive, the large-litter breeds are looking at about 100 babies per season. Stretch that out over a lifetime, and you've got over 1,000 babies per rabbit.

ViaCrucis said:
The hare had several symbolic elements, a common one was that the hare represented virginity (there was a misconception that hares/rabbits could produce offspring without sex) and so the hare can be seen included in images of the Virgin Mary. The hare was also a symbol of our salvation, Proverb 30:26 says "the badgers are a people without power, yet they make their homes in the rocks;", the Hebrew word shafan translated as "badgers" in the NRSV probably refers to the hyrax, St. Jerome translated it into Latin as lepusculus, "the hare" or "the rabbit"; likewise Psalm 104:18 says much the same about the hyrax/rabbit/hare/shafan finding safety on top of the rock.

The following is from St. Augustine's exposition on Psalm 104 (well, 103 in the Latin),

"What of the hare? What of the hedgehog? The hare is a small and weak animal: the hedgehog is also prickly: the one is a timid animal, the other is covered with prickles. What do the prickles signify, except sinners? He who sins daily, although not great sins, is covered over with the smallest prickles. In his timidity he is a hare: in his being covered with the minutest sins, he is a hedgehog: and he cannot hold those lofty and perfect commandments. For "the loftiest hills are for the stags." What then? Do these perish? No. For so "is the rock the refuge for the hedgehogs and the hares." For the Lord is a refuge for the poor. Place that rock upon the land, it is a refuge for hedgehogs, and for hares: place it on the sea, it is the home of the coot. Everywhere the rock is useful. Even in the hills it is useful: for the hills without the rock's foundation would fall into the deep...."

Taking the rock as symbolic of Christ our rock and refuge, and the hare as symbolic of us in our weakness and timidity, Augustine sees here our salvation in Christ.

The hare becomes, then, a symbol of ourselves, specifically of our salvation upon Christ our rock.

How the hare, a symbol of Mary's virginity or of our refuge in Christ, came to become the Osterhase (Easter hare) in Germany is a good question; though the game of having women and children search for eggs which symbolized the women going to the empty tomb dates at least to the 16th century (Luther was particularly fond of this so I've read). The idea of the Osterhase dates to, I think, about the 17th century.

It's safe to say that whatever pagan connotations the hare had in pre-Christian Europe didn't survive, and the hare's place in Christian iconography and symbolism was already well established before there was an Osterhase at all.

It also remains a complete fiction that the Anglo-Saxon Eostre was associated with hares and/or eggs--there's simply no evidence of this in the material we have (Bede), and is just a bit of 19th century speculation which continues to brandied about as fact.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 2, 2016

Yes, the hare or rabbit as a symbol of virility does exist in the ancient world. But what you're ignoring is that that isn't it's only symbolic significance--your point doesn't negate mine. The hare was a symbol of virginity and chastity, because hares are capable of withholding fertilization after copulation until time is right, and so an ancient observer might see a rabbit give birth seemingly without impregnation. This phenomenon made the hare a symbol of virginity, and Christians saw, therefore, in the hare a similarity with the virgin birth, and so the hare was associated with Mary.

What you completely also ignored was that the hare was a symbol of ourselves and our rescue by Christ our rock--something which I even quoted St. Augustine in his commentary on Psalm 104.

Yes, the hare was seen as a symbol of fertility and virility by many in the ancient world; Christians however came to understand the hare as symbolic of other things. You don't get to focus on the pagan symbolism and ignore the Christian symbolism simply because it seems to further your claim that hares and eggs are pagan. Hares and eggs were utilized by Christians and imbued with Christian significance; that in and itself should be sufficient here.

Unless one wants to assume that pagans get to own everything and Christians get to own nothing; after all pagans existed before there were Christians and before there were Jews, and so everything which exists in the natural world and most of what is conceivable has largely been used by some pagans somewhere at some point in time. The seven day week? Pagan. The Hebrew months? Pagan. Trees? Pagan. Every animal in existence? Pagan. Water? Pagan. Air? Pagan. The glyphs and symbols we use in every writing system in existence? Pagan.

Of course we don't have to think that way, we have an opportunity to use what we have to glorify God and to honor Christ. Which is what the Church has done, historically. The things of creation? To honor God--the pelican as a symbol of Christ, the lamb as a symbol of Christ, the lion as a symbol of Christ, even the mythical phoenix was used as a symbol of Christ. The anchor? Christ. A boat? A symbol of the Church. The dove? A symbol of the Holy Spirit. The five pointed star? The symbol of the five wounds of Christ. Water? Baptism. Bread and chalice? The Eucharist. Crosses? Christ's crucifixion, Christ.

Larry Norman is famous for having asked, "Why should the devil have all the good music?"

-CryptoLutheran

Winken · May 2, 2016

ewq1938 said:
The proof is the truth of the origins of Easter. If you won't look into it then fine. Nothing that I post will matter which is why I directed you to do your own studying into it. No comment on rabbits and eggs huh? That figures. Keep your pagan Easter. I reject it in favor of the death and resurrection of Jesus which didn't involve Easter eggs.

.

Get over it! Christianity replaces paganism. It does not endorse it!

ewq1938 · May 2, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
Yes, the hare or rabbit as a symbol of virility does exist in the ancient world. But what you're ignoring is that that isn't it's only symbolic significance--your point doesn't negate mine. The hare was a symbol of virginity and chastity, because hares are capable of withholding fertilization after copulation until time is right, and so an ancient observer might see a rabbit give birth seemingly without impregnation.

While I have proven mine, you have not proven this and your above explanation is very lacking because it doesn't make any sense.

"The hare was a symbol of virginity and chastity, because hares are capable of withholding fertilization after copulation"

How can you put virginity alongside "after copulation". That's not virginity and without that you have no bunny connection to Christ, and never had any connection to his death or resurrection.

ewq1938 · May 2, 2016

Winken said:
Get over it! Christianity replaces paganism. It does not endorse it!

No, Christians allowed pagan names and symbols into what should be the holiest day of all, the resurrection. Now on resurrection Sunday they have named it after a pagan fertility Goddess and have children running around looking for painted chicken eggs and playing with rabbits.

keltoi · May 2, 2016

ewq1938 said:
No, Christians allowed pagan names and symbols into what should be the holiest day of all, the resurrection. Now on resurrection Sunday they have named it after a pagan fertility Goddess and have children running around looking for painted chicken eggs and playing with rabbits.

What pagan fertility goddess was Easter named after?

ViaCrucis · May 2, 2016

ewq1938 said:
While I have proven mine, you have not proven this and your above explanation is very lacking because it doesn't make any sense.

"The hare was a symbol of virginity and chastity, because hares are capable of withholding fertilization after copulation"

How can you put virginity alongside "after copulation". That's not virginity and without that you have no bunny connection to Christ, and never had any connection to his death or resurrection.

Read my post again, I explained why. Because a rabbit is capable of preventing fertilization after copulation, from an observer seeing a mother rabbit give birth to baby rabbits--without said rabbit having been within contact with a male for a sizeable amount of a time--said observer living in a prescientific world might conclude the rabbit has conceived and given birth without sex.

And the connection with the hare with Christ has already been made, through St. Augustine's commentary as quoted already. That Christ is our salvation, the rock upon which we take refuge, the hare who takes refuge on the rock is a symbol of our refuge--our salvation--in Christ who died and rose. I don't know how it could be much clearer than that.

These things have already been explained.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 2, 2016

ewq1938 said:
No, Christians allowed pagan names and symbols into what should be the holiest day of all, the resurrection. Now on resurrection Sunday they have named it after a pagan fertility Goddess and have children running around looking for painted chicken eggs and playing with rabbits.

What "fertility goddess"?

Bede never says that Eoster was a fertility goddess, and Bede is our only source. Also, the Paschal Feast isn't named after the goddess Eoster, it's named after the Anglo-Saxon month named for Eoster: Eosturmonath (April).

-CryptoLutheran

ewq1938 · May 2, 2016

keltoi said:
What pagan fertility goddess was Easter named after?

Ishtar, also known by other similar names in various cultures like Eostre in German. Eventually the name became Easter in English.

keltoi · May 2, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Ishtar, also known by other similar names in various cultures like Eostre in German. Eventually the name became Easter in English.

1st mistake Ishtar and Eostre are not the same.
2nd mistake Eostre wasn't called a fertility goddess until Jakob Grimm in his neo-paganism decided to suggest she was.
Not one thing you have said so far can prove that Easter is pagan, the evidence you supply (actually you haven't supplied any) is based on 19th century neo-paganism and has no reference dating back to the times times these "goddesses" were worshipped. In other words Bede doesn't agree with you and he is the only one who knew anything about Eostra and even he was a few centuries to late.

ewq1938 · May 2, 2016

keltoi said:
1st mistake Ishtar and Eostre are not the same.

You may not believe so but I do. Names can be traced through the various languages an changes a name goes through. Ishtar and Eostre are linguistically related.

2nd mistake Eostre wasn't called a fertility goddess until Jakob Grimm in his neo-paganism decided to suggest she was.

You are mistaken.

Bede:

Original Latin:

Eostur-monath, qui nunc Paschalis mensis interpretatur, quondam a Dea illorum quæ Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant nomen habuit: a cujus nomine nunc Paschale tempus cognominant, consueto antiquæ observationis vocabulo gaudia novæ solemnitatis vocantes.

Modern English translation:
Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance."[4]

Arcangl86 · May 2, 2016

ewq1938 said:
You may not believe so but I do. Names can be traced through the various languages an changes a name goes through. Ishtar and Eostre are linguistically related.

Except they aren't.

You are mistaken.

Bede:

Original Latin:

Eostur-monath, qui nunc Paschalis mensis interpretatur, quondam a Dea illorum quæ Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant nomen habuit: a cujus nomine nunc Paschale tempus cognominant, consueto antiquæ observationis vocabulo gaudia novæ solemnitatis vocantes.

Modern English translation:
Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance."[4]

There is nothing about Eostre being a fertility goddess, and Bede is the only source we have that she might even have existed as a deity worshiped.

keltoi · May 2, 2016

ewq1938 said:
You may not believe so but I do. Names can be traced through the various languages an changes a name goes through. Ishtar and Eostre are linguistically related.

How are they linguistically related? Have you studied linguistics? Eostre is of Germanic origin Ishtar is of Semitic origin. Germanic is Indo-European, Simitic languages are not. There are no linguistic ties between the 2.

ewq1938 said:
You are mistaken.

Bede:

Original Latin:

Eostur-monath, qui nunc Paschalis mensis interpretatur, quondam a Dea illorum quæ Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant nomen habuit: a cujus nomine nunc Paschale tempus cognominant, consueto antiquæ observationis vocabulo gaudia novæ solemnitatis vocantes.

Modern English translation:
Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance."[4]

Please point out what word in either of those actually says "fertility". Also if you want to be taken seriously don't quote passages from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ēostre#De_temporum_ratione

You do know that Bede wrote this approximately 300 years after the alleged events. Bede is the English equivalent of Herodotus. They both made big claims, they both wrote heresay as fact, and they both made big mistakes.

ewq1938 · May 2, 2016

keltoi said:
How are they linguistically related? Have you studied linguistics? Eostre is of Germanic origin Ishtar is of Semitic origin. Germanic is Indo-European, Simitic languages are not. There are no linguistic ties between the 2.

There are and I have read studies by linguistic scholars on the subject. Even the online wiki mentions some of that. Besides, words from one language commonly are found in different languages having under gone various changes. You should know that if you have studied anything to do with this topic.

Please point out what word in either of those actually says "fertility". Also if you want to be taken seriously don't quote passages from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ēostre#De_temporum_ratione

There is nothing invalid about a wiki. If you don't like being wrong about what Bede said don't make claims you don't know about. Also, she being a Goddess is enough. Studying the origins of the name, tracing back to the original reveals ties to fertility not to mention April being a prime month for spring and fertility.

You do know that Bede wrote this approximately 300 years after the alleged events. Bede is the English equivalent of Herodotus.

What I know if you used Bede as a source of information then at the same time you discredit him...Pick a position and stick to it.

They both made big claims, they both wrote heresay as fact, and they both made big mistakes.

Prove what Bede wrote about Eostre is wrong. You make a lot of claims but don't prove anything and when I fact check what you do claim I find it is wrong.

keltoi · May 2, 2016

ewq1938 said:
There are and I have read studies by linguistic scholars on the subject. Even the online wiki mentions some of that. Besides, words from one language commonly are found in different languages having under gone various changes. You should know that if you have studied anything to do with this topic.

Yes in modern times this is what has happened. English for example is the worlds most used Creole language.

ewq1938 said:
There is nothing invalid about a wiki.

If you have academic sources you should use them. Two people have mentioned Bede and now you are just starting to use him as evidence.

ewq1938 said:
If you don't like being wrong about what Bede said don't make claims you don't know about.

PLease point out where I am wrong about Bede.

ewq1938 said:
Also, she being a Goddess is enough.

Enough for what? it is certainly enough to say ancient Germanic peoples may have worshipped something called Eostre but it doesn't go any further than that.

ewq1938 said:
Studying the origins of the name, tracing back to the original reveals ties to fertility not to mention April being a prime month for spring and fertility.

Two people have told you the origins of the name and you still insist, without giving any evidence what-so-ever that we are wrong. March is the month that the northern hemisphere spring begins yet you don't see any pagan female goddess' linked to March do you.

You really need to start posting links to real evidence, not doing so indicates you're winging it with wikipedia and ancient origins.

ewq1938 said:
What I know if you used Bede as a source of information then at the same time you discredit him...Pick a position and stick to it.

Every ancient writer made mistakes and Bede was no different to any other. Anyone who knows anything about Bede and others like Herodotus admits this. To suggest my pointing out the flaws in his works is some kind of way to discredit him personally is as ludicrous as saying Eostre and Ishtar are the same.

ewq1938 said:
Prove what Bede wrote about Eostre is wrong.

I don't have to, you are only now talking about Bede because I brought him up, you wouldn't have found he had written about Eostre if it wasn't for me and 1 other poster.

ewq1938 said:
You make a lot of claims but don't prove anything and when I fact check what you do claim I find it is wrong.

Post the evidence you say you are checking to find I am wrong. If you can't do that what you are saying is pure bluster and means diddly squat, not to mention that you plagiarise the work of others. If you want to appear educated with regards to this matter at least cite your evidence and not use something someone else has said as though it is your own.

The Easter that was not Easter

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