Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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mike van wyk

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jesus publically preached judgment of jerusalem

jewish false prophets publically preached deliverance of jerusalem

in 70 ad passover pilgrims still flocked into jerusalem

horao - who was proven right?
Who was the false prophets and what did they prophecy?
 
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mike van wyk said in post 6668:

This vision cannot be taken literally meaning that Christ and the saint will come on horses.

Actually, it can. For the 2nd-coming horses in Revelation 19:11,14 can be literal, spiritual horses, like the ones in 2 Kings 6:17.

mike van wyk said in post 6668:

The angel already made the promise that Christ will come on the clouds as He was taken.

Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his 1st coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see his 2nd coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or most people could see his 2nd coming via a live, breaking-news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' 2nd coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it is not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the 2nd coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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random person said in post 6669:

deuteronomy 32:29 (isaiah 5:1-7 & isaiah 63:2-6 & revelation 14:14-20) & deuteronomy 32:32 & deuteronomy 32:35-36 (daniel 12:7) & deuteronomy 32:41 & deuteronomy 32:43 (luke 11:47-51 & revelation 6:9-11 & revelation 18:20 & revelation 18:24 & revelation 19:2) + hebrews 10:30 = 70 ad

Regarding Isaiah 63:2-6, it means that at Jesus' (never-fulfilled) 2nd coming, he will be the only one to fight the battle (Revelation 19:15,21), to tread the winepress of God's wrath (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15b).

Compare Daniel 12:7b, which shows that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

random person said in post 6669:

deuteronomy 32:29 (isaiah 5:1-7 & isaiah 63:2-6 & revelation 14:14-20) & deuteronomy 32:32 & deuteronomy 32:35-36 (daniel 12:7) & deuteronomy 32:41 & deuteronomy 32:43 (luke 11:47-51 & revelation 6:9-11 & revelation 18:20 & revelation 18:24 & revelation 19:2) + hebrews 10:30 = 70 ad

Regarding Revelation 14:14-20, verses 14-16 refer to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, even if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Before the 2nd coming, Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a sword, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

random person said in post 6669:

deuteronomy 32:29 (isaiah 5:1-7 & isaiah 63:2-6 & revelation 14:14-20) & deuteronomy 32:32 & deuteronomy 32:35-36 (daniel 12:7) & deuteronomy 32:41 & deuteronomy 32:43 (luke 11:47-51 & revelation 6:9-11 & revelation 18:20 & revelation 18:24 & revelation 19:2) + hebrews 10:30 = 70 ad

Regarding Revelation 18:20, note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem. For 1st century Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

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random person said in post 6669:

[under his posting name]

GEN. 8:21; PSALMS 72:7,17; ECCL. 1:4

Regarding Genesis 8:21, compare Mark 13:20, which can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. That is, the Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

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random person said in post 6669:

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True facts about a "new heaven & new earth": marriages & births - Isa. 65:20,23; 66:22; labor & agriculture - Isa. 65:21-23; aging & death - Isa. 65:20; 66:24; sin - Isa. 65:20; Rev. 21:27; 22:15; nations aren't healed - Rev. 22:2. What is "heaven & earth"? - Isa. 51:15-16; Jer. 31:35-36.

Regarding Isaiah 65:20, it could refer to a new race of humans who will be created along with the new earth (Isaiah 65:17), but who will fall into sin and mortality like Adam and Eve did. But even as mortals, they could live for about 900 years, like Adam and generations after him lived that long (Genesis 5:5-27), so that if one of them dies at 100, it will be like he died in his youth (Isaiah 65:20b).

If Isaiah 65:20 does refer to the new earth, then it can't refer to any humans born on our present earth. For by the time that the new earth is created (Revelation 21:1), all humans born on our present earth who got saved and remained obedient will have been resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (Revelation 21:4; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Romans 8:23-25). And all who didn't get saved or who remained disobedient will have been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Isaiah 66:22,24, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

The physically resurrected, immortal humans could minister to the new race of fallen, mortal humans (of Isaiah 65:20) in the same way that angels now minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). For resurrected, immortal humans will be equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).

random person said in post 6669:

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True facts about a "new heaven & new earth": marriages & births - Isa. 65:20,23; 66:22; labor & agriculture - Isa. 65:21-23; aging & death - Isa. 65:20; 66:24; sin - Isa. 65:20; Rev. 21:27; 22:15; nations aren't healed - Rev. 22:2. What is "heaven & earth"? - Isa. 51:15-16; Jer. 31:35-36.

Regarding Isaiah 66:22, the reference to new "heavens" doesn't have to (as is sometimes claimed) mean a new universe, but can simply mean a new atmosphere. For the same Hebrew word (shamayim: H8064) translated as "heavens" can be translated simply as the "air" in which the birds fly (e.g. Genesis 1:30; 1 Samuel 17:44, Proverbs 30:19).

random person said in post 6669:

[in his signature]

True facts about a "new heaven & new earth": marriages & births - Isa. 65:20,23; 66:22; labor & agriculture - Isa. 65:21-23; aging & death - Isa. 65:20; 66:24; sin - Isa. 65:20; Rev. 21:27; 22:15; nations aren't healed - Rev. 22:2. What is "heaven & earth"? - Isa. 51:15-16; Jer. 31:35-36.

Regarding Revelation 21:27 and Revelation 22:15, they mean that no unsaved person will enter the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14-15, Revelation 21:2,10, Hebrews 12:22).

random person said in post 6669:

[in his signature]

True facts about a "new heaven & new earth": marriages & births - Isa. 65:20,23; 66:22; labor & agriculture - Isa. 65:21-23; aging & death - Isa. 65:20; 66:24; sin - Isa. 65:20; Rev. 21:27; 22:15; nations aren't healed - Rev. 22:2. What is "heaven & earth"? - Isa. 51:15-16; Jer. 31:35-36.

Regarding Isaiah 51:15-16, in verse 16, the original Hebrew word (yacad: H3245) translated as "lay the foundations of" can be translated simply as "establish" (Proverbs 3:19), so that Isaiah 51:16 can refer to God's future establishment of a literal new heaven (i.e. a new 1st heaven/atmosphere for the earth) and a literal new earth (i.e. a new surface for the earth), like in Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah 66:22-24, and Revelation 21:1-8. And Isaiah 51:16c can refer to the literal city of New Zion/New Jerusalem, the only one which will have everlasting joy and holiness (Isaiah 51:11, Isaiah 52:1, Revelation 21:2-8).

New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).

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random person said in post 6674:

in the original greek, "see" is horao (strong's #3708 )

In Luke 21:27, the original Greek word (optanomai: G3700) translated as "see" means to literally see with literal eyes. Compare its use in John 16:19-22, which meant that the apostles wouldn't literally see Jesus while they sorrowed while his body lay dead in the tomb, but they would literally see him and rejoice at his physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46).

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random person said in post 6676:

on april 14 70 ad, titus laid the final siege on jerusalem during the jewish passover. this was the fourth (and final) siege on jerusalem by rome in three years btw see luke 21:20-24

Regarding Luke 21:20-24, note that it wasn't fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD, for it refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (i.e. not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal (and never fulfilled) 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

That is, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

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Also, compare Ezekiel 21:27a, which could include the meaning that Jerusalem (Ezekiel 21:22) must be overturned, in the sense of completely destroyed, 3 separate times: once in 586 BC (by the Babylonians), then again in 70 AD (by the Romans), and then again at some point in our future (by the Antichrist), right before Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Ezekiel 21:27b).

random person said in post 6676:

on april 14 70 ad, titus laid the final siege on jerusalem during the jewish passover. this was the fourth (and final) siege on jerusalem by rome in three years btw see luke 21:20-24

Regarding Luke 21:20-24, note that in verse 21, "Judaea" doesn't have to mean 1st century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

random person said in post 6676:

did you know during the passover, jerusalemites would line the walls above the city's gates and would greet their pilgrimaging brethren with shouts of "blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord!" see matthew 23:37-39

Regarding Matthew 23:37-39, verse 37b (like Luke 13:34b) refers back to God's desire for Jerusalem during Old Testament times (e.g. Jeremiah 17:24-26). So Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 are addressing the city of Jerusalem in general, not (as is sometimes claimed) the specific, nonelect Jews alive there at the time of Jesus' 1st coming, who, as nonelect people, could never believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47), because God wanted it that way (John 12:37-41). Matthew 23:39 and Luke 13:35b refer to the future salvation of the unbelieving, elect Jews who will be living in Jerusalem at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

Matthew 23:38 refers to the spiritual desolation of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) insofar as it rejects Jesus (1 John 5:12b, cf. Galatians 4:25), while Matthew 23:39 refers to the future salvation of the unbelieving elect Jews who will be living in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

Also, Matthew 23:38, like Matthew 27:51, didn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem had become spiritually desolate. For it remained holy even after Jesus' death and resurrection. That is why the church continued to worship God there (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). What the rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 pictured was the opening of the holiest place in heaven to Christians (Hebrews 10:19-22, Hebrews 9:24), by the abolishing of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-27, Hebrews 10:9b), and by the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:50-51).

The rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 didn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that God no longer dwelt in the 2nd temple (as in Matthew 23:21). That is why (again) the church continued to worship God in the 2nd temple even after Jesus' death and physical resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).
 
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Postvieww said in post 6671:

Has Luke 21:27 happened yet?

No, for Luke 21:27 refers to the same, never-fulfilled 2nd coming of Jesus as Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, and Zechariah 14:3-21, which won't occur until "immediately after" (Matthew 24:29) the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, including after a future pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns to save the Jews in Jerusalem, and to destroy the world's armies which came against Jerusalem, and to set up the capital of the millennial aspect of his kingdom in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4).

So Luke 21:28 refers only to the signs which will accompany Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Luke 21:25-27, Matthew 24:29-30), not the things which will happen during the preceding tribulation (Luke 21:8-24).

And Luke 21:28 shows that the rapture of the church will be at the 2nd coming. For the rapture will be the time of obedient believers' ultimate redemption (Romans 8:23-25; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18).
 
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Actually, it can. For the 2nd-coming horses in Revelation 19:11,14 can be literal, spiritual horses, like the ones in 2 Kings 6:17.



Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his 1st coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see his 2nd coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or most people could see his 2nd coming via a live, breaking-news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' 2nd coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it is not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the 2nd coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
That's your way of believe. Let's wait and see.:preach:
 
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when he bodily returns in the skies above jerusalem? how is that possible? on the television news via satellite?

i live in california and cant see jerusalem with my naked eyes neither with high powered telescope. much less a person above the skies of jerusalem.





Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Col_3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.



Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



1Pe_5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.



1Jn_2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.



1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

No one who was in Jerusalem during 70 AD, saw Him either.


Why would someone want to trade one fable for another?

Full-Preterism is just another fable...
.

 
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Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Col_3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.



Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



1Pe_5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.



1Jn_2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.



1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

No one who was in Jerusalem during 70 AD, saw Him either.


Why would someone want to trade one fable for another?

Full-Preterism is just another fable...
.

Jesus' earthly ministry was during the last days. Hebrews 1:2

Jesus' death and resurrection was at the end of the "world". Hebrews 9:26

The Messianic Kingdom does not come with observation. Luke 17:20

The Messianic Kingdom is not of this world. John 18:36

The Messianic Kingdom was raised during the reign of the Roman Caesars (the kingdom of the fourth beast - Rome) and has stood ever since time immemorial. Daniel 2:44

The Messianic Kingdom never ceases to grow time immorial. Isaiah 9:7 (If there is a literal destruction of heaven and earth, then the Messianic Kingdom does indeed cease to grow, it does indeed cease to increase but in truth the generations coming to Christ and receiving Christ never ceases, so the church and in essence heaven (kingdom of God) too (through departed Christians) grows, grows, grows, and grows - but because according to people like you - there will be no more childbearing no more generations of Christians being raised up during a literal New Heavens and New Earth in fact no more marriages for that matter - but what does Ephesians 3:21 say... the Church/Messianic Kingdom is a world without end time immemorial. According to you, the Kingdom of God ceases to increase. But what does the Bible say?

Jesus received His kingdom when He ascended back up to heaven in 30/33 AD. Daniel 7:13-14 (Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64)

What is the sign in heaven in Matthew 24:30? It is tied into all judgment being given the Son (John 5:22)?

Do you see how all of this ties in together? The sign of heaven - Christ is reigning in Heaven in His kingdom and delivers judgment on Judea! And how did Christ judge Judea? The Romans in 70 AD. The Father did not judge Judea in 70 AD, Christ did while seated on the judgment seat. That is the sign in heaven. It is not a sign on earth. It is a sign in Heaven. I reiterate it is not a sign on earth. The sign on earth is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the passing away of the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 10:9).
 
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Do you see how all of this ties in together? The sign of heaven - Christ is reigning in Heaven in His kingdom and delivers judgment on Judea! And how did Christ judge Judea? The Romans in 70 AD. The Father did not judge Judea in 70 AD, Christ did while seated on the judgment seat. That is the sign in heaven. It is not a sign on earth. It is a sign in Heaven. I reiterate it is not a sign on earth. The sign on earth is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the passing away of the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 10:9).

I believe we have been through the problems with your Full-Preterist doctrine before, but we can review it again for the newer members.

God did bring judgment on the Jews during 70 AD, by allowing the Roman under Titus to destroy the city and the temple, just as He had earlier allowed the Babylonians to do something similar.
However, Christ was still with the Father in heaven at the time.
This is one of many problems with your doctrine.

The Old Covenant did not pass away in 70 AD.
It passed away at Calvary, when Christ said... "It is finished."
He spoke of the New Covenant in His own words at the Last Supper.



Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The New Covenant did not wait until 70 AD.
It was already in effect in the scripture below.


Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

In some ways your doctrine suffers from some of the same problems as Dispensational Theology, when it comes to the New Covenant...
.
 
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I believe we have been through the problems with your Full-Preterist doctrine before, but we can review it again for the newer members.

God did bring judgment on the Jews during 70 AD, by allowing the Roman under Titus to destroy the city and the temple, just as He had earlier allowed the Babylonians to do something similar.
However, Christ was still with the Father in heaven at the time.
This is one of many problems with your doctrine.

The Old Covenant did not pass away in 70 AD.
It passed away at Calvary, when Christ said... "It is finished."
He spoke of the New Covenant in His own words at the Last Supper.



Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The New Covenant did not wait until 70 AD.
It was already in effect in the scripture below.



Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

In some ways your doctrine suffers from some of the same problems as Dispensational Theology, when it comes to the New Covenant...
.

did christ fulfill all of god's promises to israel including the hope of israel which is the resurrection at calvary? the old covenant contains promises!

do you believe heaven is jerusalem?

do you believe heaven is the holy mountain of god?

do you believe flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of god (heaven)?

do you believe there will be marriages in the kingdom of god (heaven)?

answer these questions yes or no
 
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under what circumstances does physical israel lose the kingdom matthew 21:43? jesus speaks of this in parable form in the next chapter matthew 22:1-10? under judgment. in deuteronomy 32:29 it states had physical israel been wise enough to consider their latter end (last days) when god avenges the the blood of his servants the prophets and apostles deuteronomy 32:43. jesus spoke in length about this in matthew 23; luke 11:47-51; luke 13:33-35; luke 17:20-37; luke 19:41-44; and luke 23:27-31.

but now begs the question did physical israel lose its hope and the promise of the resurrection according to acts 23:6; acts 24:15; acts 26:6-7; acts 28:20? did god break his promise to israel? wouldnt that make god a liar?

what does scripture say about fulfillment?

daniel 12:2; daniel 12:5-7; daniel 12:9-13
matthew 5:17-18
matthew 24:34
luke 21:22; luke 21:32
luke 24:44

to reiterate another point why cant flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of god if we are bodily resurrected? why cant christian bachelors and bachelorettes marry in the kingdom of god if we are bodily resurrected?
 
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did christ fulfill all of god's promises to israel including the hope of israel which is the resurrection at calvary? the old covenant contains promises!

Like Dispensationalists, you are ignoring the words "if" and "then" in the Sinai covenant promise.

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

and the fact that the Promises to Abraham were made only to Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


The promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah chapter 31 states that they had broken the Sinai Covenant.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Some aspects of the kingdom were present during the ministry of Christ. It did not wait until 70 AD.

Luk_11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


We are still waiting on Full-Preterists to produce at least one document from the Early Church Fathers, stating that the Second Coming occurred in 70 AD.

It looks like it is going to be a very long wait.
.


 
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Like Dispensationalists, you are ignoring the words "if" and "then" in the Sinai covenant promise.

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

and the fact that the Promises to Abraham were made only to Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


The promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah chapter 31 states that they had broken the Sinai Covenant.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Some aspects of the kingdom were present during the ministry of Christ. It did not wait until 70 AD.

Luk_11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


We are still waiting on Full-Preterists to produce at least one document from the Early Church Fathers, stating that the Second Coming occurred in 70 AD.

It looks like it is going to be a very long wait.
.



under the OLD COVENANT israel was given the promise and hope in a resurrection, the new testament writers taught this in the future tense it was a future hope of israel well beyond calvary, do you believe the old covenant passed away without israel receiving their hope and promise?

all things must be fulfilled. all things shall be finished as daniel 12:7 words it.

is the resurrection a jot and a tittle in your estimates?
 
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c'mon.... the body is sown terrestrial ...raised celestial...

flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of god...

the soul is raised from sheol... psalms 30:3 & hosea 13:14...

its all there in 1 cor. 15
 
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under the OLD COVENANT israel was given the promise and hope in a resurrection, the new testament writers taught this in the future tense it was a future hope of israel well beyond calvary, do you believe the old covenant passed away without israel receiving their hope and promise?

all things must be fulfilled. all things shall be finished as daniel 12:7 words it.

is the resurrection a jot and a tittle in your estimates?

There are two resurrections in John chapter 5.

The first is a resurrection that occurs when a person is "born again" spiritually, through faith in Christ.
When were you "Born Again", as described by Christ in John chapter 3?


Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The second resurrection is a resurrection of the body, that will occur at the future Second Coming of Christ.
It did not occur in 70 AD.


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This second resurrection will occur at the last trumpet, found in 1st Corinthians chapter 15.



1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

After Christ rose from the dead he had a body that was capable of eating. It was this body that rose into the clouds in acts chapter 1. After the resurrection of the dead, we will receive a new body like His.

This occurs at the 7th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.
It did not occur in 70 AD.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


It is a sad aspect of your doctrine that you deny the future bodily resurrection of the dead...
.

 
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There are two resurrections in John chapter 5.

The first is a resurrection that occurs when a person is "born again" spiritually, through faith in Christ.
When were you "Born Again", as described by Christ in John chapter 3?


Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The second resurrection is a resurrection of the body, that will occur at the future Second Coming of Christ.
It did not occur in 70 AD.


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This second resurrection will occur at the last trumpet, found in 1st Corinthians chapter 15.



1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

After Christ rose from the dead he had a body that was capable of eating. It was this body that rose into the clouds in acts chapter 1. After the resurrection of the dead, we will receive a new body like His.

This occurs at the 7th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.
It did not occur in 70 AD.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It is a sad aspect of your doctrine that you deny the future bodily resurrection of the dead...
.

here is the total sum of the resurrection - 1 peter 1:4-5 and hebrews 9:28, our souls were raised from sheol in 70 ad as per psalms 30:3 & hosea 13:14. the ministration of death vanquished. the sting of death and the strenght of sin was removed finally. 1 corinthians 15:55-56 (death is the final enemy - sin is its sting and the law is its strength - of death that is). jesus ascended up to heaven and entered into the tabernacle not made with hands with blood deemed worthy and gave israel a space of 40 years to repent while fulfilling all the promises in the old covenant including resurrection as per daniel 12:2-7. our high priest returned from the "tabernacle" with judgment and salvation hebrews 9:8.

i reiterate flesh and blood CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven
 
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here is the total sum of the resurrection - 1 peter 1:4-5 and hebrews 9:28, our souls were raised from sheol in 70 ad as per psalms 30:3 & hosea 13:14. the ministration of death vanquished. the sting of death and the strenght of sin was removed finally. 1 corinthians 15:55-56 (death is the final enemy - sin is its sting and the law is its strength - of death that is). jesus ascended up to heaven and entered into the tabernacle not made with hands with blood deemed worthy and gave israel a space of 40 years to repent while fulfilling all the promises in the old covenant including resurrection as per daniel 12:2-7. our high priest returned from the "tabernacle" with judgment and salvation hebrews 9:8.

i reiterate flesh and blood CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven

1 corinthians 15:37 & 1 corinthians 15:44 & 1 corinthians 15:46 & 1 corinthians 15:50

seed = our natural bodies
grain = our spirits raised up from sheol
 
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random person said in post 6688:

Jesus' death and resurrection was at the end of the "world". Hebrews 9:26

Note that Hebrews 9:26 (like 1 Corinthians 10:11) saying that the "end" of the world had come in the 1st century AD is like someone today on a Friday saying that "the weekend is here!", in that both mean that multiple "days" have yet to come. That is, the "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). But the last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

random person said in post 6688:

The Messianic Kingdom does not come with observation. Luke 17:20

Luke 17:20b-21 means up until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Luke 17:24), when the kingdom will come physically to the earth, with observation (Matthew 24:30).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all of the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

random person said in post 6688:

The Messianic Kingdom is not of this world. John 18:36

John 18:36 means that Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-4, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning physically from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

random person said in post 6688:

The Messianic Kingdom was raised during the reign of the Roman Caesars (the kingdom of the fourth beast - Rome) and has stood ever since time immemorial. Daniel 2:44

Daniel 2:44a refers to the setting up of the physical aspect of the kingdom of God subsequent to Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 21:8). Daniel 2:44b refers to the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church not leaving the earth to other people, but remaining on the earth and ruling the surviving unsaved nations with a rod of iron during the millennium, and figuratively breaking some of them in pieces like a potter's vessel (Psalms 2:7-9, Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6). "And it shall stand for ever" (Daniel 2:44c) refers to the physical aspect of the kingdom continuing on a new earth forever (Revelation 21:1-8, Revelation 22:5), after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:5).

random person said in post 6688:

The Messianic Kingdom was raised during the reign of the Roman Caesars (the kingdom of the fourth beast - Rome) and has stood ever since time immemorial. Daniel 2:44

Regarding "these kings" in Daniel 2:44, they aren't the ancient Roman Caesars, even though you are right that the 4th beast was the Roman Empire.

That is, Daniel 2:44, as well as its immediate context (Daniel 2:42-43), might best be understood in the light of Daniel 7, where the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria.

The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

random person said in post 6688:

Jesus received His kingdom when He ascended back up to heaven in 30/33 AD. Daniel 7:13-14 (Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64)

Regarding Daniel 7:13-14, note that Daniel 7 doesn't necessarily refer to the Ancient of days and the Son of man (who is Jesus: e.g. Matthew 16:13) as being different people. For the description of the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9 matches the description of the Son of man in Revelation 1:13-14. And the judgment of people occurring in front of the throne of the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9-10 matches the judgments of people occurring in front of the throne of the Son of man in 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Revelation 20:11-15 (cf. John 5:22).

Also, when Daniel 7:13 says that the Son of man came "to" the Ancient of days, the original Chaldean word (ad: H5705) translated as "to" corresponds to a Hebrew word (ad: H5704) which can be translated as "when" (Psalms 71:18, Jonah 4:2). So Daniel 7:13b can refer to "when" the Ancient of days will come, which will be when the Son of man comes with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), which will be at his (never fulfilled) 2nd coming to the earth (Matthew 24:30), which will be when the Ancient of days will come to the earth immediately after the tribulation to set up the millennial aspect of his kingdom on the earth with the physically-resurrected church (Daniel 7:21-22, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). So when Daniel 7:13b says "they brought him near before him", that can refer to angels bringing the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) before the returned Son of man/Ancient of days to be judged and given to the burning flame (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

The Son of man can be the Ancient of days because the Son of man is "from everlasting" (Micah 5:2c, John 8:58, John 17:5).

random person said in post 6688:

Jesus received His kingdom when He ascended back up to heaven in 30/33 AD. Daniel 7:13-14 (Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64)

Regarding Matthew 26:64, it (like Mark 14:62) doesn't mean that Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:7 to 20:3) had to have occurred while the high priest and the other Christ-rejecters Jesus was addressing in Matthew 26:64 were still alive. Instead, Matthew 26:64 means that even though those Christ-rejecters will have been dead for some 2,000 years, and their souls will be in Hades, they will still see the 2nd coming when it occurs in our future. For the souls of the dead in Hades are able to see things (Luke 16:23).

random person said in post 6688:

Jesus received His kingdom when He ascended back up to heaven in 30/33 AD. Daniel 7:13-14 (Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64)

Regarding Matthew 24:30, it refers to Jesus' future, physical, visible return to the earth in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. For the whole point of Matthew 24:30, just as the whole point of the rest of Matthew 24, is to distinguish Jesus' physical, future, 2nd coming to the earth from the physical, future coming of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-5,24-30).

Similarly, Zechariah 14:4 confirms that Jesus will return physically to the earth.

For Zechariah 14 is about Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5b; 1 Thessalonians 3:13b), and about the subsequent millennium, when he will reign on the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Micah 4:1-4). Zechariah 14:3 refers to the 2nd-coming battle of Revelation 19:19-21. And Zechariah 14:4 shows that at his 2nd coming, Jesus will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at the end of his 1st coming, he physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return in like manner as he left.

Before Jesus returns, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 the world's armies will gather together at a staging area at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). They will then move south and pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-5, Revelation 19:19-21). Jesus will then remain on the earth as King (Zechariah 14:9), and the unsaved people left alive on the earth (Matthew 24:40) will be forced to come up to Jerusalem and worship him annually (Zechariah 14:16-19). Jesus and the physically resurrected church will rule the unsaved survivors of the nations with a rod of iron during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6).

Also, Zechariah 12:2-14 refers to the same future time as Zechariah 14.

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It is sometimes claimed that Zechariah 14 was fulfilled at Jesus' 1st coming. But Jesus' 1st coming wasn't the day of the Lord (Zechariah 14:1), for that won't begin until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2). Also, Jesus' 1st coming didn't occur right after Jerusalem had been defeated by all nations gathered against it (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't fight the nations (Zechariah 14:3) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). It will be at his 2nd coming that Jesus will fight the nations (Revelation 19:11-21) and then land on the Mount of Olives, just as he had ascended from the Mount of Olives at the end of his 1st coming (Acts 1:11-12).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't split the Mount of Olives in two (Zechariah 14:4), creating a valley through which the Jews in Jerusalem could flee from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:5) as Jesus waged war against all the nations of the world which had just pillaged Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at Jesus' 1st coming, he didn't come with all of the saints (Zechariah 14:5b). That will happen only at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 3:13b). Also, at Jesus' 1st coming, he didn't make it so that Jerusalem was light at night (Zechariah 14:6-7). And he didn't make water flow out from Jerusalem in summer and winter, half of the water flowing toward the Dead Sea and the other half toward the Mediterranean Sea (Zechariah 14:8). And he didn't make himself King over the earth (Zechariah 14:9). And he didn't flatten the topography for miles around Jerusalem and raise its elevation (Zechariah 14:10). And he didn't make it so that Jerusalem wouldn't be destroyed (Zechariah 14:11). And he didn't send an amazingly rapid, flesh-eating plague against the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem, so that their flesh consumed away while they stood on their feet (Zechariah 14:12).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't cause the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem to fight against each other (Zechariah 14:13). And he didn't make Judah fight at Jerusalem and win for itself the wealth of all the nations surrounding it (Zechariah 14:14). And he didn't make the transportation animals used by the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem suffer the horrible flesh-eating plague (Zechariah 14:15,12). And unsaved survivors of all nations which had just pillaged Jerusalem didn't come to Jerusalem annually at the feast of tabernacles to worship Jesus (Zechariah 14:16). And he didn't send drought and plague against the nations which refused to come to Jerusalem to worship him (Zechariah 14:17-19).

Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't make Jerusalem so holy that even the bells on the horses in Jerusalem had the words "Holiness Unto The Lord" engraved on them (Zechariah 14:20). And he didn't make it so that the animal-sacrifice boiling pots in the temple in Jerusalem became as holy as the bowls before the altar (Zechariah 14:20). And didn't make it so that every pot in Jerusalem and Judah became holiness to the Lord (Zechariah 14:21). Instead, at his 1st coming, Jesus left unbelieving Jerusalem spiritually desolate (Luke 13:35). Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't make it so that there would be no more Canaanites in the temple in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:21).

random person said in post 6688:

What is the sign in heaven in Matthew 24:30? It is tied into all judgment being given the Son (John 5:22)?

That's right.

For Matthew 24:30 is Christ's coming to judge the world. But it is only the temporal judgment of the world in Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, which will happen before the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. Matthew 24:30 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) the eternal judgment of the world in Revelation 20:11-15, which won't happen until sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

When Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

random person said in post 6688:

The sign on earth is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the passing away of the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 10:9).

Regarding Hebrews 8:13, it means that when the prophet Jeremiah in the 6th century BC prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 about the 1st century AD making of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6), which wouldn't be according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32, Romans 7:6), Jeremiah's prophecy, as soon as it was made, had immediately made the letter of the Mosaic-law covenant "old" and headed inexorably toward a future extinction (Hebrews 7:18-19).

But this extinction occurred not in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

Also, while the apostles of the church asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

Also, this has nothing to do (as is sometimes claimed) with the never-fulfilled passing away of heaven and earth (2 Peter 3:7,10-12), or the subsequent creation of a new heaven and earth. For just as the heaven and earth which "were of old" (2 Peter 3:5-6) were the literal 1st "heaven" (the sky/atmosphere, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20) and the literal "earth" (the dry land) which God created in Genesis 1:7-10, and which "perished" in Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6, Genesis 6:13-21), so the heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which will perish in our future by fire instead of flood (2 Peter 3:7-12), are the earth's present atmosphere and surface. And so the new heaven and earth, which the church is still waiting for (2 Peter 3:13) -- because the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1) won't be made until after the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 20 -- will be a new atmosphere and surface for the earth.

That is, the "old" heaven and earth perished at the time of Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6), which was over 1,000 years before the Old Covenant Mosaic law was established in Exodus. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments was abolished the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). Matthew 5:18 refers to the literal heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which will be literally burned up in our future (2 Peter 3:7-12).

So the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 are physical, just as the heaven and earth in 2 Peter 3:10,12 are physical. 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the New Testament where the Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the New Testament where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all.

Also, Matthew 5:18 didn't mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's 1st coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before he could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

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random person said in post 6690:

do you believe flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of god (heaven)?

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

This refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth, in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom, which will be on the present earth. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies without inheriting the kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the 3rd-heaven aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, at one point during the tribulation, the 2 witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the 2 witnesses will ascend up to the 3rd heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the 3rd heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the 3rd heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the 3rd heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the 3rd heaven.

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random person said in post 6691:

jesus spoke in length about this in matthew 23; luke 11:47-51; luke 13:33-35; luke 17:20-37; luke 19:41-44; and luke 23:27-31.

Regarding Luke 19:41-44, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Luke 19:44. For the stones of the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Instead, Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

random person said in post 6691:

but now begs the question did physical israel lose its hope and the promise of the resurrection according to acts 23:6; acts 24:15; acts 26:6-7; acts 28:20?

Regarding Acts 24:15, note that it didn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that a resurrection was "about to" happen from the viewpoint of men in the 1st century AD. For Acts 26:22-23 employs the Greek word "mello" (translated as "should") to refer even to Moses' prophesying of the 1st coming of Christ (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 3:22-24), which prophesying occurred some 1,400 years before Christ's 1st coming.

Also, when and how in your view did the resurrection of the unjust happen? (Acts 24:15)

random person said in post 6691:

but now begs the question did physical israel lose its hope and the promise of the resurrection according to acts 23:6; acts 24:15; acts 26:6-7; acts 28:20?

Note that these scriptures refer to the hope of literal, physical resurrection from the dead (Acts 26:8, Acts 23:6b, Acts 24:15, Romans 8:23-25).

This brings to mind that believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

random person said in post 6691:

what does scripture say about fulfillment?

daniel 12:2; daniel 12:5-7; daniel 12:9-13

Regarding Daniel 12:2, it will occur at the church's physical resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Also, regarding the immediate context of Daniel 12:2, the preceding verse, Daniel 12:1, will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).

random person said in post 6691:

what does scripture say about fulfillment?

daniel 12:2; daniel 12:5-7; daniel 12:9-13

Regarding Daniel 12:5-7 and Daniel 12:9-13, the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' 1st coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

random person said in post 6691:

what does scripture say about fulfillment?

daniel 12:2; daniel 12:5-7; daniel 12:9-13
matthew 5:17-18

Regarding Matthew 5:17-18, it means that Jesus came the 1st time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's 1st coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for he did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for he couldn't possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).

As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-9), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with his own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow his disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

*******

random person said in post 6694:

c'mon.... the body is sown terrestrial ...raised celestial...

The glorious heavenly, or "celestial", bodies referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:40 are objects like the literal sun, moon, and stars in 1 Corinthians 15:41, which are gloriously bright physical objects which reside in the 2nd "heaven" which is outer space (Deuteronomy 4:19).

When obedient believers' bodies will be raised/resurrected into "spiritual"/heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44-49), they will still be fleshly bodies, but no longer "natural" (i.e. no longer mortal) fleshly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). Instead, they will be immortal fleshly bodies like Jesus was raised/resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), by the spiritual/heavenly power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11,23-25, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:44).

random person said in post 6694:

the soul is raised from sheol... psalms 30:3 & hosea 13:14...

There are 2 literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23) and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus' 1st coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

After Jesus fulfilled the gospel by dying for our sins on the Cross and rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), he went down into Hades and preached the fulfillment of the gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6), and then drew the souls of obedient believers there up with him when he ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient believers go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), all unsaved people of all times will be physically resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13), and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels in fire and brimstone forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46) and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).

Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8). Saved people will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal torment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).
 
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BABerean2 said in post 6695:

There are two resurrections in John chapter 5.

The first is a resurrection that occurs when a person is "born again" spiritually, through faith in Christ.

Regarding what the Bible calls the "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:4-6), note that while there is indeed the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the 1st resurrection will be the same, physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Also, the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical because it won't occur until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a physical resurrection, just like Jesus' physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

BABerean2 said in post 6695:

The second resurrection is a resurrection of the body, that will occur at the future Second Coming of Christ.
It did not occur in 70 AD.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Regarding John 5:28-29, note that it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

BABerean2 said in post 6695:

After Christ rose from the dead he had a body that was capable of eating. It was this body that rose into the clouds in acts chapter 1. After the resurrection of the dead, we will receive a new body like His.

This occurs at the 7th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds. It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.
 
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BABerean2

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here is the total sum of the resurrection - 1 peter 1:4-5 and hebrews 9:28, our souls were raised from sheol in 70 ad as per psalms 30:3 & hosea 13:14. the ministration of death vanquished. the sting of death and the strenght of sin was removed finally. 1 corinthians 15:55-56 (death is the final enemy - sin is its sting and the law is its strength - of death that is). jesus ascended up to heaven and entered into the tabernacle not made with hands with blood deemed worthy and gave israel a space of 40 years to repent while fulfilling all the promises in the old covenant including resurrection as per daniel 12:2-7. our high priest returned from the "tabernacle" with judgment and salvation hebrews 9:8.

i reiterate flesh and blood CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven

Since you are still living, your soul could not have been in sheol in 70 AD.


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Jesus was the only one who kept the Sinai covenant during His life.
Israel had already broken the covenant. We find in Hebrews chapter 8 that God not longer considered it in effect for Israel, since they had broken the contract.


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

You are correct that normal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
However, Christ received a resurrected, supernatural body.
He ascended into heaven in this body, which had consumed food.

We will receive a body like His, at the future bodily resurrection of the dead.


Corruption will put on incorruption. This did not happen in 70 AD.


1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We are still waiting on your writings from the early Church Fathers saying that the resurrection of the dead occurred in 70 AD.

Your Full-Preterist doctrine cannot be found in God's Word.

Like modern Dispensational Theology, it is a doctrine of ignorance, since we must ignore certain passages to make it work...
.
 
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