Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

BobRyan · Sep 9, 2015

endless false accusations are spamming.

Pointing to the irrefutable Bible texts that make the point "for me" instead of resorting to a rant and false accusation - now that is the whole point of the thread... as it turns out.

If someone were able to refute those texts - it would be a different matter entirely.

Open Heart · Sep 9, 2015

BobRyan said:
endless false accusations are spamming.

spamming is when you copy and paste the exact same thing over and over. period.

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2015

still dancing around the subject of the thread??

The need to avoid the details in the posts - the irrefutable texts provided - merely makes the failure to oppose them that much more vivid.

"Which texts" -- ??

How about these --

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
According to the bible the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

According to the Bible that "cannot keep God's Law" scenario is the case for the lost

And so then what about "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."?? Romans 8:2 -- does it free us to take God's name in vain to be set free from the "Law of Sin and death" or does it simply refer to Romans 7

Romans 7
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."?? Romans 8:2

What a mistake then to equate the Law of God that Paul agrees with - (that includes the TEN Commandments according to Rom 7) -- into the "Law of sin"

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (KJV)

Rom 8 (NKJV)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8 (NASB)
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

========================

Because it really is 'that easy' to get the thread back on topic - focused on the details that actual pertain to the thread.

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2015

If every day were the Sabbath - then no secular work would ever by done by Christians.

BobRyan · Jan 26, 2016

some folks think this might be a post written just today - but in fact it was written a while back.

BobRyan said:
Ok that is all well and good - but the thread title says that these obvious pro-Ten Commandment facts in the Bible are also affirmed by pro-Sunday scholarship.

How can that possibly be?

First a summary of the pro-Sunday scholarship statements affirming the TEN Commandments.

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

disciple1 · Jan 26, 2016

BobRyan said:
some folks think this might be a post written just today - but in fact it was written a while back.

You don't obey the Sabbath.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

disciple1 · Jan 26, 2016

BobRyan said:
some folks think this might be a post written just today - but in fact it was written a while back.

So Moses ministry brought death and Christs ministry brought righteousness.
2 Corinthians chapter 3 verses 6-9
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
Colossians chapter 2 verses 2-5
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

disciple1 · Jan 26, 2016

BobRyan said:
some folks think this might be a post written just today - but in fact it was written a while back.

Hebrews chapter 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Romans chapter 10 verse 17
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Romans chapter 1
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

BobRyan · Jan 26, 2016

disciple1 said:
So Moses ministry brought death and Christs ministry brought righteousness.
.

Christ quotes Moses - like this

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

FredVB · Feb 11, 2016

disciple1 said:
You don't obey the Sabbath.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

Indeed, I say these points likewise. Yet it was a law of righteousness, as such it is good. Paul said that, still, there are those who do not understand Paul well. The point there is there can't be the obedience, without faith, and in any case, we who will be obedient need Yahweh God's help, and not be without it in that. Would it be better not to desire the obedience? Paul wasn't saying that. And the verse there doesn't speak to Sabbath observance. What is said of Sabbath observance in the new testament of the Bible calls for not judging others in it. Others should not be kept from or discouraged from Sabbath observance. And for the point claiming such do not obey, should any that don't just give up, and not desire to be obedient? Nothing in scriptures is saying that, and believers shouldn't say it.

So Moses ministry brought death and Christs ministry brought righteousness.
2 Corinthians chapter 3 verses 6-9
Colossians chapter 2 verses 2-5
Hebrews chapter 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Romans chapter 10 verse 17
Romans chapter 1 28

I still agree with such verses. But the law was yet good, there was death from it without faith, this is the point made, and with Christ one is made alive, with his righteousness. With this seeking to trust and obey is never with trusting one's own righteousness. Yahweh God is the same always, never changing. It defies logic that commandments came from God, and God then changed the mind about those and said they don't apply. Paul is not understood if it is thought that he said that somewhere. Yet believers have life only through Christ, it is with repentance to life with sin, with faith coming to him, with restoration through the redemption Christ provided and relationship with God through Christ. Obedience may come about, as it is meant to, just from this.

BobRyan · Feb 12, 2016

disciple1 said:
Hebrews chapter 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Romans chapter 10 verse 17
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Romans chapter 1
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Hebrews 11 states that the OT saints were people of faith.

Their Sabbath Keeping was not in opposition to faith - but because of it.

Hence for all eternity - all mankind "From SABBATH to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

BobRyan · Feb 12, 2016

disciple1 said:
So Moses ministry brought death and Christs ministry brought righteousness.
2 Corinthians chapter 3 verses 6-9
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
Colossians chapter 2 verses 2-5
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

2 Cor 3 does not say "Moses' ministry brought death" -

Moses himself stands WITH Christ in Matt 17 -- BEFORE the cross.

And in Mark 7:6-13 Christ hammers the church magisterium of his day - "Sola scriptura" saying clearly that the "Commandment of God" and the "Word of God" and "Moses said" are all one.l

in Luke 16 - Christ teaches "if they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" - and as we all know - Christ was raised from the dead.

BobRyan · Feb 12, 2016

disciple1 said:
You don't obey the Sabbath.

The "accuser of the brethren" in Rev 12 was cast down at the time of the cross. His methods don't work.

disciple1 said:
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

The text does not say "thy were lost because they honored God's Sabbath as He commanded" - and I think we all know it.

And as we see in Heb 11 - the saints of the OT - were people of faith.

Hence Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in Matt 17 - New Testament.

New Covenant - "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 - Heb 8:6-10
Rev 14:12 - "Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

BobRyan · Feb 12, 2016

Open Heart said:
spamming is when you copy and paste the exact same thing over and over. period.

If only people would not keep arguing the same dead-end objections that beg to have the same Bible texts brought to answer the same exact objection as it is brought up dozens and dozens of times.

When you find texts for which you have no answer - you simply repeat the objection and insist that the answer no longer be posted. And that is "convincing"???

bugkiller · Feb 13, 2016

BobRyan said:
endless false accusations are spamming.

Pointing to the irrefutable Bible texts that make the point "for me" instead of resorting to a rant and false accusation - now that is the whole point of the thread... as it turns out.

If someone were able to refute those texts - it would be a different matter entirely.

We present Scripture quotes and references you simply dismiss. When you deal with them squarely we can move on.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 13, 2016

BobRyan said:
still dancing around the subject of the thread??

The need to avoid the details in the posts - the irrefutable texts provided - merely makes the failure to oppose them that much more vivid.

"Which texts" -- ??

How about these --

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
According to the bible the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

According to the Bible that "cannot keep God's Law" scenario is the case for the lost

And so then what about "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."?? Romans 8:2 -- does it free us to take God's name in vain to be set free from the "Law of Sin and death" or does it simply refer to Romans 7

Romans 7
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."?? Romans 8:2

What a mistake then to equate the Law of God that Paul agrees with - (that includes the TEN Commandments according to Rom 7) -- into the "Law of sin"

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (KJV)

Rom 8 (NKJV)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8 (NASB)
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

========================

Because it really is 'that easy' to get the thread back on topic - focused on the details that actual pertain to the thread.

All have been addressed.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 13, 2016

BobRyan said:
Christ quotes Moses - like this

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Your OT reference is... well missing.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 13, 2016

FredVB said:
Indeed, I say these points likewise. Yet it was a law of righteousness, as such it is good. Paul said that, still, there are those who do not understand Paul well. The point there is there can't be the obedience, without faith, and in any case, we who will be obedient need Yahweh God's help, and not be without it in that. Would it be better not to desire the obedience? Paul wasn't saying that. And the verse there doesn't speak to Sabbath observance. What is said of Sabbath observance in the new testament of the Bible calls for not judging others in it. Others should not be kept from or discouraged from Sabbath observance. And for the point claiming such do not obey, should any that don't just give up, and not desire to be obedient? Nothing in scriptures is saying that, and believers shouldn't say it.

If God gave a NC, why do we need to keep the OC?

I still agree with such verses. But the law was yet good, there was death from it without faith, this is the point made, and with Christ one is made alive, with his righteousness. With this seeking to trust and obey is never with trusting one's own righteousness. Yahweh God is the same always, never changing. It defies logic that commandments came from God, and God then changed the mind about those and said they don't apply. Paul is not understood if it is thought that he said that somewhere. Yet believers have life only through Christ, it is with repentance to life with sin, with faith coming to him, with restoration through the redemption Christ provided and relationship with God through Christ. Obedience may come about, as it is meant to, just from this.

Maybe you should tell Jeremiah not to lie about a coming NC. While you're at it perhaps you should inform God (Jesus) He is lying when He says the NC is in existence.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 13, 2016

BobRyan said:
Hebrews 11 states that the OT saints were people of faith.

Their Sabbath Keeping was not in opposition to faith - but because of it.

Hence for all eternity - all mankind "From SABBATH to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Your point is...

But how does this apply to Enoch, Noah, Abraham who disn't have the law and David who had the law and a terriable record of observance?

Rom 4 says they were declared righteous, not tht they attained it by obedience to the law which you require to be righteous.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 13, 2016

BobRyan said:
2 Cor 3 does not say "Moses' ministry brought death" -

Oh, please explain.

Moses himself stands WITH Christ in Matt 17 -- BEFORE the cross.

And in Mark 7:6-13 Christ hammers the church magisterium of his day - "Sola scriptura" saying clearly that the "Commandment of God" and the "Word of God" and "Moses said" are all one.l

in Luke 16 - Christ teaches "if they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" - and as we all know - Christ was raised from the dead.

Is your idea we don't hear Moses because we don't keep the sabbath?

bugkiller

Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Junior Member

Regular Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads