How Liberal?

Unitarian Universalists make me sad; they have ceased to be Christian in any meaningful sense.

Depends upon what you mean by liberal. Many, maybe most, find eternal conscious torment morally questionable. However that doesn't necessarily imply universal salvation.

I don't think I could ever tear my belief away that salvation is universal. I don't believe in Hell anymore, so I guess that follows, but it's also for other reasons. Like what happens to people who have never heard of Christianity (somewhere out there, there are at least some people who haven't), or children and adults who are unable to comprehend religion?

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

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In my view hell, whatever it is, isn't for the ignorant. It's for determined enemies of God and neighbor.

I don't believe in "eternal conscious torment," but I'm not certain of "universal salvation."

It does seem to me that Jesus taught about some sort of possible exclusion from the Kingdom of God. What that would look like, how long it would last... I don't know. I do hope for the redemption of all.

I sometimes think there is some basic knowledge everywhere that would look to God Jesus yet without knowing his name explicitly. I also wonder if there might be a chance after one dies.

redblue22 said:

I sometimes think there is some basic knowledge everywhere that would look to God Jesus yet without knowing his name explicitly. I also wonder if there might be a chance after one dies.

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Paul seems to say that in Rom 1, and probably Rom 2.

LloydK said:

Wgw said: "Unitarian Universalists make me sad; they have ceased to be Christian in any meaningful sense."

I think the only meaningful sense of Christianity is having love for all. So I don't see a problem for anyone who is open to that idea, whether they're "Christian", "atheist" or anything else. And I think everyone is "forced" to become open to loving everyone eventually.

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I think we can respect people and value them without calling them Christian. It’s great for Unitarians or anyone else to love everyone. But if the word Christian is to have meaning, it seems to me that it has to indicate people whose religious commitment is primarily to Christ.

Unitarians can, of course, be committed to Christ, and many are. However today’s Unitarian Universalist Church isn’t specifically Christian. It welcomes pagans and other people who I don’t think would even claim to be Christian. There are, no doubt, Christians in the U-U Church, but I would say that the U-U church as a church has in fact ceased to be Christian in any meaningful sense.

LloydK said:

Wgw said: "Unitarian Universalists make me sad; they have ceased to be Christian in any meaningful sense."

I think the only meaningful sense of Christianity is having love for all. So I don't see a problem for anyone who is open to that idea, whether they're "Christian", "atheist" or anything else. And I think everyone is "forced" to become open to loving everyone eventually.

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Well, the extent to which UUs are benevolent is, IMO, debateable. I dislike their attitude towards people who disagree with them politically. I will also note that, per capita, they are the wealthiest denomination in the US, descended as they are largely from the Puritan settlers of New England.

I don't know about the U-U's, never been to any straight "Unitarian" Church -- but I have been to UNITY.
And may do so again - Unity is NOT Unitarian. ( It's not TRINITARIAN, either, by any means)

"It seems that Unity members tend to believe in reincarnation, which I think is nonsense, but at least they don't seem to believe in eternal hell."

Well, Unity has no official position on reincarnation -- many of the members believe in it, not all, perhaps not even a majority; but there is no "doctrinal position" on it -- or on much else of anything, really.

Unity seems to view Jesus more as "Way-Shower" than Redeemer.

I went to Unity for a while - I am moving soon, and will be in walking distance of the newly built Unity Church.
I would have to walk past - bypass - a big beautiful UNITED METHODIST CHURCH across the street from the place I will be staying. I am United Methodist more than anything; and it is the logical place to go; but it will be a new experience for me -- the congregation is black, and I'm just a white man.

But I bet it works out okay -- and eventually I will have 2 places to go -- Meffdist and Unity.

Unity refuses to be pinned down by ANY doctrine -- they think of God as THE ONLY POWER

and no, hell, no -- they don't preach an eternal hell.

I'm fairly liberal...I believe that what happens after death is up to God and I don't have the wisdom or intelligence to figure that out. I believe that God's mercy and justice will prevail.

Matthew 25:31-46 is what I try to live by and I believe that anyone who lives that out will be rewarded.

RedPonyDriver said:

I believe that what happens after death is up to God and I don't have the wisdom or intelligence to figure that out. I believe that God's mercy and justice will prevail.

Matthew 25:31-46 is what I try to live by and I believe that anyone who lives that out will be rewarded.

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I like the way that you believe; I'm with you in terms of admitting that I haven't the intelligence to know what to expect after death.

One can object to modernistic and literalistic depictions of Hell without subscribing to dogmatic universalism.

I believe we should take seriously what Scripture takes seriously--and that is that there is an actual seriousness to the way in which we act toward our neighbor. This shouldn't be taken as a means of fear-mongering people into obedience or believing certain things; but it should mean that we really do take seriously the reality that the things we say and do actually matter. It actually matters, in the big picture of things, how we treat other people, especially the "least of these".

God is neither a petulant and capricious being who is just waiting to find ways to cast down bolts of lightning upon our heads; nor is God a cosmic self-congratulatory hug. God actually cares about us and this world, and what happens in it.

-CryptoLutheran

LloydK said:

Hedrick said: "In my view hell, whatever it is, isn't for the ignorant. It's for determined enemies of God and neighbor."

That seems to suggest that determined enemies can be more powerful that an omnipotent God, i.e. regarding their own existence. That doesn't make sense to me. I believe God must be more determined than any supposed enemy. Besides, God's only enemy is sin, not sinners. So all sinners are bound to grow up morally and grow out of sinning.

Also, Jesus is the Good Shepherd who goes after ALL lost sheep and brings them back. That's salvation.

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It's not that God chooses them to be their enemy, but they choose to be God's enemy and God allows them to do so. As a result of that, they have the consequence of not being able to accept the love of God...which after the resurrection will be a Hell for them.

To ask, how liberal?, is like asking how long is a piece of string. Liberality implies freedom. Freedom implies lack of constraint. To be liberal is to be free from constraint. I guess the only real constraint we can put on being liberal are the limitations of our existence. Beyond that it is certainly infinite.

LloydK said:

Hedrick said: "In my view hell, whatever it is, isn't for the ignorant. It's for determined enemies of God and neighbor."

That seems to suggest that determined enemies can be more powerful that an omnipotent God, i.e. regarding their own existence. That doesn't make sense to me. I believe God must be more determined than any supposed enemy. Besides, God's only enemy is sin, not sinners. So all sinners are bound to grow up morally and grow out of sinning.

Also, Jesus is the Good Shepherd who goes after ALL lost sheep and brings them back. That's salvation.

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I don’t feel safe in concluding how God has to act. God loves us and wants to best for us. But he still allows evil, so we can’t conclude from God’s love that there won’t be evil.

Like you, I feel that eternal life with some eternally outside isn’t what I hope for. But there a couple of alternatives I can think of (neither of which CF will permit to be advocated), and there may well be others I can’t think of. Since we don’t know what’s going to happen, I think it’s safest to repeat Jesus’ teachings that we will be held accountable, while admitting that we don’t know the exact form in which that will happen. Hell is the traditional image of that accountability for people who haven’t accepted God’s grace.

Quakers don't "meditate" in their meetings, it's more like they are listening to God. The consensual government is a consequence of that.

Some Unitarians are Christians, some are not. It's not one of their core principles that identifies them as Unitarians.