Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

cgaviria · Feb 9, 2016

Strong in Him said:
Well actually it was the author of the book of Hebrews who wrote that - who probably wasn't Paul; but no matter.

God may well see us as perfect - because he looks at Jesus and we are in him.
But if Christians were already perfect, then Paul would not have said that the Spirit is transforming us into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18. You can't transform something which is already perfect. He would not also have said that when he appears we would be like him - if we are perfect now, we are already like him. And that means that you have contradicted yourself because you, correctly, said that no one is perfect except Jesus.

Yes - IF we want, and allow, him to. We still live in a human body in an imperfect world, however, and we still have the ability to choose; the gift of choice. God did not create us to be puppets, so that we have to do what he says, no choice, he pulls the strings. That is what happened with Adam and Eve. If they were to be truly free, they HAD to be free to disobey God if they chose. If they obeyed the command their maker gave them, it had to be because they wanted and chose to do so, not because God was hypnotising them, pulling their strings or making it so that they couldn't refuse.
It is the same now. I believe God is desperately hurt and sad when his creation - us; we who were the pinnacle of his creation and a little lower than the angels CHOOSE to say, "I don't want to know you; I will go my own way and do my own thing." But he risks that hurt, for the joy of having children who want to love, obey, be with and serve him. And we are not perfect - just as a baby is not born being able to walk, knowing right from wrong etc; they have to learn and, in matters of morality, some do not learn too quickly. Same with God's spiritual children - but he is a perfect, loving, forgiving Father and keeps picking us up and setting us straight.

Indeed.

I don't believe that a child of God, someone who knows his love and mercy will continually and purposely sin. But no one is perfect - you said that yourself. No one can have perfect thoughts, desires, dreams, words, conversation, attitudes etc etc 24/7 - and even if we could, we'd still sin by not doing all the good that we could do.

Er no; I KNOW I have the Holy Spirit, and am saved. And by the way, that's the Spirit of the Lord who Jesus spoke about, and not an angel who is my own special holy spirit.

How you can write correct teachings about the Spirit convicting us of sin, and about why Jesus died, and then say that the Spirit is only an angel, and that Jesus himself was a created being who was made a god, is truly beyond me. I seem to remember you also said at one point that Jesus is the Spirit who is mentioned in Genesis 1:2.
How could it be possible for anyone to be baptised into an angel??

Obviously when inwardly perfected the transformation is still not complete, because the body has yet to be perfected. No one that carries on sinning has truly been born of God, and he is a liar if he is still sinning yet claims to have holy spirit. Obviously angels are also spirits, and thus just as unclean spirits, even fallen angels, can take possession of the body, so can a spirit of God enter the body, and thus sanctify and guide it, therefore, this holy spirit entering into the body is a baptism of a spirit that is holy. If you do not receive this holy spirit, you cannot be saved, because anyone who does not truly receive the spirit of God is only following his own voice, and not the voice of the spirit of God that speaks inside the believer and even tells him things he would not otherwise know. This baptism of holy spirit is always evidenced by an outward sign, usually prophesying or speaking in a new language that is not known to the believer. There are many who claim to have the holy spirit, but very few that do, and think that somehow any "godly thought" that they procure on their own is their own evidence of having the holy spirit. How foolish.

Goatee · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
Obviously when inwardly perfected the transformation is still not complete, because the body has yet to be perfected. No one that carries on sinning has truly been born of God, and he is a liar if he is still sinning yet claims to have holy spirit. Obviously angels are also spirits, and thus just as unclean spirits, even fallen angels, can take possession of the body, so can a spirit of God enter the body, and thus sanctify and guide it, therefore, this holy spirit entering into the body is a baptism of a spirit that is holy. If you do not receive this holy spirit, you cannot be saved, because anyone who does not truly receive the spirit of God is only following his own voice, and not the voice of the spirit of God that speaks inside the believer and even tells him things he would not otherwise know. This baptism of holy spirit is always evidenced by an outward sign, usually prophesying or speaking in a new language that is not known to the believer. There are many who claim to have the holy spirit, but very few that do, and think that somehow any "godly thought" that they procure on their own is their own evidence of having the holy spirit. How foolish.

Also, the person could also be possessed by a deceiving 'Evil' spirit and not know it, thinking that they are all pious and sinless and full of the word of God! Remember that the Devil is very cunning indeed and will do anything to capture a soul!

Matthew 7:15
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

2 Corinthians 11:14
14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

2 Timothy 3:13
13 while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived.

Deuteronomy 13:5
5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from the midst of you.

2 Peter 2:1
False Prophets and Their Punishment
2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Strong in Him · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
There are many who claim to have the holy spirit, but very few that do, and think that somehow any "godly thought" that they procure on their own is their own evidence of having the holy spirit. How foolish.

That is not what the Bible teaches. Foolishness is ignoring the word of God.

Sorry, but as you do not even know who the Holy Spirit is, having relegated him to the status of an angel, you are not qualified to tell anyone that they have not received, or been baptised in, the Spirit. And when it comes to "godly thoughts that they procure on their own"; as you are rejecting orthodox Christianity, ignoring 2000 years of Christian teaching and cannot produce one theologian/member of the Christian clergy who agrees with you, isn't this what you are doing?

nomadictheist · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
The commandments have not changed, those were examples to us, spiritually, as to how the assembly ought to handle brothers that are sinning in correlation with how the congregation then handled sinning brothers, and Paul delivered this person to Satan for his own death demonstrating this example.

We could go back and forth on this all day. Everywhere that the Bible says that we will not be sinless in this life, you claim it's talking about our past sins. You even brush aside specific examples of people in the early church sinning after they received the Spirit.

There was a group of people who believed themselves to be more righteous than the rest when Jesus came to earth. This group of people knew they had it right. They were among the few who would enter heaven. They knew how to interpret every scripture, and anyone who didn't live according to the way that they interpreted the law just wasn't living up to God's standards. They were the most righteous of the Jews, incapable of error (in their own minds).

When Jesus walked this earth, He had harsh words for these people. He spent His time among those that these people looked down on and scorned because they were not righteous enough (sinless enough). He showed these people that their supposed righteousness was nothing more than filthy rags, and their sin was as great as the lowest of the sinners that He spent His time calling to repentance.

Paul said in an epistle to Timothy that this is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptance, that "Jesus Christ came to save sinners, of whom I am the worst." He didn't say was the worst. He said "am the worst." How could Paul say this? He could say it because he walked by the Spirit, for if you are truly walking in step with the Spirit, the purity and holiness of God will humble you and cause you to acknowledge your sin, falling to your knees in repentance.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

cgaviria · Feb 9, 2016

Strong in Him said:
That is not what the Bible teaches. Foolishness is ignoring the word of God.

Sorry, but as you do not even know who the Holy Spirit is, having relegated him to the status of an angel, you are not qualified to tell anyone that they have not received, or been baptised in, the Spirit. And when it comes to "godly thoughts that they procure on their own"; as you are rejecting orthodox Christianity, ignoring 2000 years of Christian teaching and cannot produce one theologian/member of the Christian clergy who agrees with you, isn't this what you are doing?

I am more qualified than you who says you can sin and still be right with God. In fact your very own teachings are a complete disrespect of the power of the holy spirit to cause a man to become perfected. If you were teaching these things next to someone who had the holy spirit you would probably be charged with blasphemy against the holy spirit.

civilwarbuff · Feb 9, 2016

nomadictheist said:
We could go back and forth on this all day. Everywhere that the Bible says that we will not be sinless in this life, you claim it's talking about our past sins. You even brush aside specific examples of people in the early church sinning after they received the Spirit.

There was a group of people who believed themselves to be more righteous than the rest when Jesus came to earth. This group of people knew they had it right. They were among the few who would enter heaven. They knew how to interpret every scripture, and anyone who didn't live according to the way that they interpreted the law just wasn't living up to God's standards. They were the most righteous of the Jews, incapable of error (in their own minds).

When Jesus walked this earth, He had harsh words for these people. He spent His time among those that these people looked down on and scorned because they were not righteous enough (sinless enough). He showed these people that their supposed righteousness was nothing more than filthy rags, and their sin was as great as the lowest of the sinners that He spent His time calling to repentance.

Paul said in an epistle to Timothy that this is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptance, that "Jesus Christ came to save sinners, of whom I am the worst." He didn't say was the worst. He said "am the worst." How could Paul say this? He could say it because he walked by the Spirit, for if you are truly walking in step with the Spirit, the purity and holiness of God will humble you and cause you to acknowledge your sin, falling to your knees in repentance.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Very well said..... :bow:

redleghunter · Feb 9, 2016

nomadictheist said:
There was a group of people who believed themselves to be more righteous than the rest when Jesus came to earth. This group of people knew they had it right. They were among the few who would enter heaven. They knew how to interpret every scripture, and anyone who didn't live according to the way that they interpreted the law just wasn't living up to God's standards. They were the most righteous of the Jews, incapable of error (in their own minds).

When Jesus walked this earth, He had harsh words for these people. He spent His time among those that these people looked down on and scorned because they were not righteous enough (sinless enough). He showed these people that their supposed righteousness was nothing more than filthy rags, and their sin was as great as the lowest of the sinners that He spent His time calling to repentance.

Wow.

redleghunter · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
If you were teaching these things next to someone who had the holy spirit you would probably be charged with blasphemy against the holy spirit.

I am glad you now admit the Holy Spirit is God. It took quite a few, no many, posts but I am glad you now see that. Because if the Holy Spirit is not God then you cannot blaspheme Him.

Amen, Amen:

Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

civilwarbuff · Feb 9, 2016

redleghunter said:
I am glad you now admit the Holy Spirit is God. It took quite a few, no many, posts but I am glad you now see that. Because if the Holy Spirit is not God then you cannot blaspheme Him.

Amen, Amen:

Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Strong in Him · Feb 9, 2016

redleghunter said:
I am glad you now admit the Holy Spirit is God. It took quite a few, no many, posts but I am glad you now see that. Because if the Holy Spirit is not God then you cannot blaspheme Him.

Spot on.

(I did say this to him a few posts ago - or in another thread - but maybe he'll listen to you.)

cgaviria · Feb 9, 2016

Strong in Him said:
But as I have received the Holy Spirit, that's not a problem.

No person that has received the holy spirit will agree that they can commit sins like adultery and still be saved. So obviously you have not received him.

Strong in Him · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
No person that has received the holy spirit will agree that they can commit sins like adultery and still be saved. So obviously you have not received him.

They can, are and will be saved if they repent and ask God for forgiveness.
God forgives; he's like that.

According to your teaching, I do not have the Holy Spirit. But God has filled me with his Spirit, so maybe he doesn't agree with your teaching.

cgaviria · Feb 9, 2016

Strong in Him said:
They can, are and will be saved if they repent and ask God for forgiveness.
God forgives; he's like that.

According to your teaching, I do not have the Holy Spirit. But God has filled me with his Spirit, so maybe he doesn't agree with your teaching.

Obviously if you are still committing the same sin that isn't repentance. Repentance means to stop what you are doing, stop committing that sin. Being sorry that you did it means nothing. God cares about obedience, not all this nonsense you and your churches teach about all this sorriness while you people still go out and commit the same sins every day, as if you could go ahead and live a lascivious life, and saying, "oh God is merciful, he will forgive you each time". That is not how this works, if you do not stop sinning, you will find yourself dying in your sins, and being cast out into a fiery lake, being called a "worker of iniquity". If I were to believe what you believed, I would be out in the world partying, drinking, getting laid, and then going to church every Sunday, and asking God for forgiveness each time, and why not, he forgives each time, right? What idiotic and foolish teachings.

civilwarbuff · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
If I were to believe what you believed, I would be out in the world partying, drinking, getting laid, and then going to church every Sunday, and asking God for forgiveness each time, and why not, he forgives each time, right?

If you have the Holy Spirit in you you no longer desire to do these things which is why I keep posting 1 Cor 2:14 to you. You need to stop your "teaching" until you have the Holy Spirit to guide you in what is correct. Until then you will teach error.

cgaviria · Feb 9, 2016

civilwarbuff said:
If you have the Holy Spirit in you you no longer desire to do these things which is why I keep posting 1 Cor 2:14 to you. You need to stop your "teaching" until you have the Holy Spirit to guide you in what is correct. Until then you will teach error.

This is exactly what I've been saying, when you have holy spirit you no longer desire to sin, hence why you don't sin. Yet you earlier said someone that has holy spirit can commit adultery and still be saved, and this is where I am telling you that you are wrong. Such a person would not commit adultery because they wouldn't even have the desire to. Yet you teach that they will sin, in some way, yet I am telling you that the holy spirit guards you from not sinning. Its wonderful gift and in fact the only way to not sin. I will also never stop preaching against the need to stop sinning, otherwise I would be a false teacher telling people that it is okay to sin, because they will always be forgiven.

civilwarbuff · Feb 9, 2016

Our desire to not sin does not always overcome the flesh.....
Mar 14:38 All of you must stay awake and pray that you won't be tempted. The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak."
And because we are of the flesh we are weak and don't always stay awake and pray.

cgaviria · Feb 9, 2016

civilwarbuff said:
Our desire to not sin does not always overcome the flesh.....
Mar 14:38 All of you must stay awake and pray that you won't be tempted. The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak."
And because we are of the flesh we are weak and don't always stay awake and pray.

So then let us sin, since we are weak. Let us party, and drink, and get laid, for we are weak. God will forgive each time, right?

civilwarbuff · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
So then let us sin, since we are weak. Let us party, and drink, and get laid, for we are weak. God will forgive each time, right?

1 Cor 2:14 is all I can say........

civilwarbuff · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
otherwise I would be a false teacher

You are already a false teacher, you just dont know it yet......

Strong in Him · Feb 9, 2016

cgaviria said:
Obviously if you are still committing the same sin that isn't repentance. Repentance means to stop what you are doing, stop committing that sin.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. But a person can sincerely repent of a sin, determine not to do it again, and slip up. Or move away from Jesus and allow the devil to get in - or just because they are weak.

I mean, you're still committing the sin of judgementalism - although you probably think you're not, so won't have repented.

cgaviria said:
God cares about obedience, not all this nonsense you and your churches teach about all this sorriness while you people still go out and commit the same sins every day, as if you could go ahead and live a lascivious life, and saying, "oh God is merciful, he will forgive you each time". That is not how this works,

And I have never said that it does. I specifically said that if someone claims to have repented and to love God and they continually and deliberately carry on sinning, there would be every reason to question their sincerity.

cgaviria said:
If I were to believe what you believed, I would be out in the world partying, drinking, getting laid, and then going to church every Sunday, and asking God for forgiveness each time, and why not, he forgives each time, right? What idiotic and foolish teachings.

I don't believe anything of the sort, so that is a totally foolish and idiotic post.

Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

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Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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