John MacArthur on Feminism

Strong in Him

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Yes, yes, yes.

If God's written word is your guide, you must agree.

So presumably then you are doing everything you can to re-establish slavery, so that you can treat them as the Bible instructs us to treat them; you don't have long hair - as Paul says that long hair on a man is disgraceful, (though he doesn't say how long, so maybe we need some debate about that); you wouldn't get married, as Paul preferred people not to be, and in any case, he said that women couldn't wear gold in church. Presumably also you believe that women should be totally silent in church - which doesn't explain why Paul said that a woman is allowed to pray and prophesy; and that they can't wear nice clothes, pearls or have their hair in plaits, (good luck with trying to explain that to anyone with dreadlocks.)
Presumably you also keep the entire Jewish law - I know Jesus fulfilled it, but it's still in Scripture.

The trouble is that many have exchanged the truth of God for their feelings. People often "feel" called rather than are called.

Unless you are, or know, a godly woman who has heard God's call; unless you have tried to ignore him, argued with him and known no peace until you have surrendered and done what he asked you to do, you have no idea, and no right to say that all these women - thousands of them - are being led by mere "feelings".
 
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Strong in Him,

You are very sweet, but this conversation is unfruitful in its opinions outside of Scripture. The Bible clearly teaches against women being in positions of authority over men as MacArthur clearly showed. Everything else means very little.

The Bible clearly teaches us that we should treat our slaves well, yet slavery was abolished years ago.
The Bible says that a woman who is widowed under the age of 60 should NOT get financial assistance, 1 Timothy 5:9-15. Paul actually says that widows under the age of 60 are idle, gossiping busybodies.
So I assume you'll be trying to re-establish slavery, and be sure to tell any newly bereaved woman under 60 that she needs to remarry and stop gossiping - after all, this is what the Bible says.

God appointed Deborah and raised her up to be judge over the whole nation. If it is against his word and will for women to be in that position, he wouldn't have done that. Huldah, the prophetess, also gave the word of God to men - in fact, the priests chose to consult her when they could have gone to Jeremiah.
In Jesus' time, women had virtually no rights and were considered unreliable witnesses in a court of law; yet Jesus chose Mary Magdalene to be the first witness of the resurrection, and gave her the task of going to the room where his male disciples were all in hiding, tell them the Good News and give them a message from him.

There are, and have been, many female teachers, evangelists, preachers, pastors and missionaries - even in the Bible.
 
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You have to decide what you will do with it and will be held accountable for what you decide.

I'd rather stand before God and say, "I sincerely and honestly believed that you called me to preach, gave me inspiration for all my sermons and helped and blessed those who heard them; forgive me if I was wrong", than, "well I stuck to the letter of Scripture, prevented a lot of women from hearing from you, following your calling and using the gifts that you gave them."

Paul does not say that the Holy Spirit will never give the gifts of teaching or pastor (Ephesians 4:11) to women.
 
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No, Paul said it and now it is part of the Canon of Scripture.

The Jewish law is still part of the canon of Scripture, yet Jesus said he'd fulfilled it and Paul said that we are not under it.
Why is it still there then?
 
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Armoured

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Don't know if this is the right thread..Anyways, John hit the nail on the head. But this is something many world based christians do not like to accept and admit.



Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are a woman, right?
 
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Tiny Bible

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And this is what it often boils down to for many who argue for women in positions of authority over men in the church. They reject Paul's teaching as not inspired by God or in contradiction to Jesus' teachings. They also use anecdotal evidence or take Scripture out of context to support their arguments.
I think what you miss is Paul's first person reference to himself in the letters he wrote to the church. And particularly in the letter that concerns women remaining quiet.

The proof that Jesus did/does not support such a teaching is in scripture that is not attributed to Paul's letters to the churches he founded.

You can choose to support Paul's doctrine and reject that of Christ when he said that he would give women the power to prophecy. You can even ignore the scripture that tells us of Junia in Paul's letter to the Roman's in Romans 16:7. Prior to this his letter to the Roman's in 16:1 spoke of Phoebe. She was a minister (some people claim it was Deaconess) in the church at Cenchrea. Those who wish to minimalize her position will often claim the word for minister, diakonos,[Strong's Greek Translation] meant servant or helper.

You can also step back from the scriptures in the Old Testament that refers to female Prophetesses called by God. Like that scripture in Exodus 15:20. That particular verse also contradicts those who teach that it is against God's will to dance. Then there are the passages in Judges 4 & 5, 2 Kings 22:14 and 2 Chronicles 34:22.

The scribe of the book Luke referred to the female disciple Tabitha in Acts 9:36.
The apostle Philip had four daughters who were prophets. He spoke of those in Acts 21:8-9.

If Paul, as you believe per your faith in MacArthur's teaching, was against women preachers, prophetesses, apostles, he would have had a hard time explaining his relating in his writings of the works of Euodia and Syntyche. They labored in the word with Paul and were what today would be called Evangelicals.

What is impossible to miss is your refusal to answer the inquiry, the third and last I'll make as reiterating the first query of you, as to whether or not you are in accord with MacArthur who is a Calvinist and a premillennialist.
When you defend MacArthur's errant teaching and refuse to answer that simple question you don't really hold any seat to question anyone's understanding of the word.

MacArthur devotees are a victim and should be pitied for their blind faith in a man who is not teaching scripture but rather is a devotee of John Calvin. And who hopes people will believe him when he teaches that Jesus, and Paul through Christ's inspiration, are sexists who promoted sexism as the word of the God. And to then have misled devotees of false teachings to accept that the scriptures wherein God said there is no male or female because all are equal in Christ was inspired, God breathed to Paul, by mistake.

Believe what you wish. You'll answer for that as shall MacArthur before the Bema seat when it is time.
This is all I have to discuss with you. I will not continue to hope to reach that which insists God discriminates against women and would never anoint a woman to teach the truth of God in Christ. Not even Paul taught that. Certainly Jesus did not. That MacArthur does speaks for itself.
 
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Job8

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If he insists that God can never call a woman to lead, then maybe he can explain why God did just that in the OT, with Deborah.
The circumstances under which Deborah took a leadership role were abnormal. Your question should really be "What does the New Testament teach about women in leadership in the home and in the church?" We have many plain Scriptures that clearly spell out the roles of Christian men and women, as well as the spiritual rationale for maintaining them.
 
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Job8

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I think what you miss is Paul's first person reference to himself in the letters he wrote to the church. And particularly in the letter that concerns women remaining quiet.

The proof that Jesus did/does not support such a teaching is in scripture that is not attributed to Paul's letters to the churches he founded.
To put Paul's teachings in opposition to those of Christ is ludicrous. Since over half the New Testament consists of the writings of Paul, who was the leading apostle of Christ, it is detrimental to both Christ and Paul to use such specious arguments. Peter (the one who was rebuked by Paul) places ALL OF PAUL'S EPISTLES on the same level as the authoritative Tanakh (Old Testament).

So why do people try to denigrate Paul and his writings? In one word "the flesh". The flesh hates what the Spirit says, and Paul already told us that. Those who walk in the Spirit accept the entire New Testament as the Word of God.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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So why do people try to denigrate Paul and his writings

This is one reason: ". . .people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." (John 3:19 ESV)

We are all capable of varying degrees of insanity in order to suppress truth that we don't like, that truth insults and exposes us as dependent creatures rather than autonomous gods.
 
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The circumstances under which Deborah took a leadership role were abnormal.

Really?
So God wasn't able to raise up a male judge - he had to go against his own will and appoint a woman? Deborah was judge for some time, not just a week, or month. Judges 5:31 says that the land had peace for 40 years. True, it doesn't say that Deborah was judge for all that time, but that's the way it's written - when there were judges, the people followed God and were at peace; when there were no judges, they didn't and weren't.

Anyway, if God were to contradict his will and command even for a day, that would weaken his position and the argument.

Your question should really be "What does the New Testament teach about women in leadership in the home and in the church?" We have many plain Scriptures that clearly spell out the roles of Christian men and women, as well as the spiritual rationale for maintaining them.

We have many NT Scriptures which talk about the relationship, and roles, of husband and wife.
The church has grown and changed enormously since Paul's day. I doubt they could have foreseen this growth- most believed that Jesus would return in their lifetime - so could not lay down instructions about how each part of it was to be governed. And yes, I know that the Lord knew and could have written it into his word, but we have all kinds of things today that are not addressed at all in Scripture; children's groups, youth pastors, technology, evangelism programmes, building maintenance projects and so on.

God does not change, but he often works in new ways. In the wilderness, he instructed Moses to build a tabernacle and ark of the covenant, so that they could carry it around and God's presence would be with them always; in Solomon's time he instructed him to build a temple. In the wilderness, and for centuries, they killed animals and their shed blood atoned for sin; in the NT, God sent Jesus. In the wilderness, God's presence was indicated by cloud, of fire, and people were told that no one could look at God and live; in the NT, God came to earth and people could look at, and touch, him. In the OT, God's people were those who had been rescued from Egypt and received his covenant, one nation, 12 tribes; in the NT, God's people are those who have received Jesus, been born again, have God's word, his name and his very Spirit who lives IN them - this group includes Gentiles, people from many, many countries. When the nation was sent into exile, in Isaiah's time, God told them that he was going to work in a NEW way; he told them to forget the former things, Isaiah 43:18-19. In Jeremiah's day, he prophesied there would be a NEW covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34. Joel prophesied of a time when God would put his Spirit IN people, Joel 2:28. So once upon a time, the tabernacle, then the temple and probably also church buildings have been described as God's house, where he "lives", but in fact we are all temples of the Holy Spirit.
Even in the church, things change. Once upon a time, everything had to be done properly; people sat and listened to the Bible being read, in Latin, by the priests; the thought of having their own copy, in English, was just a dream, and no doubt some thought it sacrilegious to suggest translating God's word into another language - or at all. Once, people sat in pews in a church building and others led the service. I doubt the idea that they might take part in the worship, by reading prayers or the Scriptures, or giving a talk to the children, never mind by dancing, drama or music, would have entered their heads, or those of the clergy. It may not have been possible for any lay (non ordained) person to lead worship or preach, whereas nowadays, it is.
Not only that, but we have the recent innovation known as "Fresh expressions", which is a clear move to take the Gospel, and worship, OUT of church buildings - so we have groups of people, (who are the church) meeting in clubs, pubs, coffee shops, by the sea; people who come together to ride motorbikes, bake bread, do crafts, dance or whatever it is they like to do - AND learn about God and worship.

All these things are part of church life today - very few are mentioned in Scripture, and there is no instruction about how, or whether, to do them.

Scripture does give clear guidance in the area of relationships and marriage, and the role of husbands and wives. But the role of teaching, preaching the Gospel, showing pastoral concern, is not restricted to men alone. As I said, there are examples of women doing this - Deborah, Huldah, Miriam and other female prophets, the woman at the well, Mary Magdalene, Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia and all the other female co workers who worked alongside Paul and whom he commended.
 
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To put Paul's teachings in opposition to those of Christ is ludicrous. Since over half the New Testament consists of the writings of Paul, who was the leading apostle of Christ, it is detrimental to both Christ and Paul to use such specious arguments. Peter (the one who was rebuked by Paul) places ALL OF PAUL'S EPISTLES on the same level as the authoritative Tanakh (Old Testament). Anyone who doesn't notice Paul's writings do conflict with Jesus' hasn't read the scripture with clear eyes.
So why do people try to denigrate Paul and his writings? In one word "the flesh". The flesh hates what the Spirit says, and Paul already told us that. Those who walk in the Spirit accept the entire New Testament as the Word of God.
1 Corinthians 4:15 For guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
 
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Job8

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1 Corinthians 4:15 For guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
What have these Scripture quotations to say about the roles of men and women? And if you think they are in opposition to each other, you are mistaken. While Paul became a spiritual father to many, he did not ask anyone to call him "father", since he was fully cognizant of the commandments of Christ.
 
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Tiny Bible

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What have these Scripture quotations to say about the roles of men and women? And if you think they are in opposition to each other, you are mistaken. While Paul became a spiritual father to many, he did not ask anyone to call him "father", since he was fully cognizant of the commandments of Christ.
Has everything to do with the roles of men and women being some claim Paul taught gender discriminatoin in the name of Christ. He did not. And if he did then he was not teaching the words of Christ because Paul said God does not show partiality. James 2:11.

No, I'm not mistaken those verses are in opposition. Jesus was clear as to the title of apostle and apostleship.
Revelation 21:14

Matthew 10:1-4
Mark 3:14-19__________ John 15:16
Luke 6:13-16

Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot.

ETA: 12 Apostles, 12 Tribes.
I trust God knows what he's doing.
 
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Tiny Bible

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The Jewish law is still part of the canon of Scripture, yet Jesus said he'd fulfilled it and Paul said that we are not under it.
Why is it still there then?
Please show me the scripture that refers to the 613 commandments of God in the New Testament.
 
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Please show me the scripture that refers to the 613 commandments of God in the New Testament.

No, I'm talking about the statement that we need to believe, and practice, something because it is in the Bible.
The people who compiled the Bible could easily have left the books of Exodus and Leviticus out; as Christians we do not follow, or live by, them. But they are still part of Scripture, ALL of which is the word of God, not just the NT.
So we can't say that we have to follow, accept and apply a teaching just because it is in the Bible. I would guess that most of us don't even apply all the words that are written in the NT, what with women being allowed to wear gold in church, and some Christian men having long hair, ( which Paul says is disgraceful.)
 
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Tiny Bible

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I think for the New Testament to make sense the OT had to be included in the Bible.
Jesus was clear as to what commands still apply even with his coming as the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament.
No, I'm talking about the statement that we need to believe, and practice, something because it is in the Bible.
The people who compiled the Bible could easily have left the books of Exodus and Leviticus out; as Christians we do not follow, or live by, them. But they are still part of Scripture, ALL of which is the word of God, not just the NT.
So we can't say that we have to follow, accept and apply a teaching just because it is in the Bible. I would guess that most of us don't even apply all the words that are written in the NT, what with women being allowed to wear gold in church, and some Christian men having long hair, ( which Paul says is disgraceful.)
 
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