The Immaculate Conception

Magnus Maximus

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The IC was a tradition since the beginning of the Church--The catholic Church simply codified it and made it Dogma, but it was always part of the Holy Tradition and understood since the founding of the Church. Writings of the Church Fathers, even the Greek Fathers supported it. So why does the EO oppose making it dogma?


Mary herself said it, that is enough for me

But Besides that:

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.
  • The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
  • Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
  • Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
  • Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
  • Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
  • In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
  • Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
  • it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
  • she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
  • she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
  • when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
  • The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
  • To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
  • Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis" was taken up by some Western authors; it was put forward by Petrus Comestor in his treatise against St. Bernard and by others. Some writers even taught that Mary was born of a virgin and that she was conceived in a miraculous manner when Joachim and Anne met at the golden gate of the temple (Trombelli, "Mari SS. Vita", Sect. V, ii, 8; Summa aurea, II, 948. Cf. also the "Revelations" of Catherine Emmerich which contain the entire apocryphal legend of the miraculous conception of Mary.
From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.
 

Magnus Maximus

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To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").

St Ephraem is a saint in Both the RC and EO church--If she was as pure as eve before the fall that means she was conceived with out sin, because there was no sin in the world before the fall

St. John Damascene (ST John of Damascus) was the last of the Greek Fathers a saint in both the EO and RC esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. This opinion of an immaculate active generation and the sanctity of the "conceptio carnis"

Once again this supports that MAry was conceived and was immaculate at conception
 
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ArmyMatt

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and nothing that says anything about merits or original guilt, which is what makes the IC different from the original teaching concerning her.

and for those just tuning in, Mary only said it after nearly 2000 years. for some oddball reason this teaching the Church was silent on for a long time. was not even mentioned at Ephesus or Chalcedon or Constantinople, where the Incarnate Lord was the focus of the debate.
 
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buzuxi02

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St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Consequently according to the Damascene, even the human element of her origin, the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy

This disproves the IC. St John of Damascus explains that Mary's lineage was holy, being of the root of Jesse. That down through the generations the seed of her lineage remained pure, being preserved in each successive generation. St John of Damascus explained that the Theotokos dormition conformed to her nature, that is conformed to the fallen nature which resulted in a natural death.

I urge you to get a copy of any byzantine rite catholic service book of the Annunciation which denounces the IC in its hymns. It makes clear that a purification and sanctification of both body and soul took place when Mary was overshadowed and only upon the acceptance of archangel Gabriel's message that she will bear the Christ.
 
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~Anastasia~

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St John of Damascus explained that the Theotokos dormition conformed to her nature, that is conformed to the fallen nature which resulted in a natural death.
.
Thank you - that answers my question (elsewhere). :)
 
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E.C.

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so if you could just find some Fathers talking about the merits of Christ being applied to Mary to remove the stain of original guilt, you might have something.
One would sooner find Bigfoot, the Abominable Snowman, and the Swamp Thing all playing Monopoly at the foot of a rainbow using the pot of gold as the bank.
 
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prodromos

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Magnus, have you read any of those quotes in their context?
Can you provide any of those quotes in their context, or did you just copy and paste them from another site which also doesn't provide context?

Ah, no matter, I see you have copied it from the Catholic encyclopedia, or one of the other sites which quote it, so I believe I can assume that you have never read the quotes in context.
 
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ArmyMatt

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One would sooner find Bigfoot, the Abominable Snowman, and the Swamp Thing all playing Monopoly at the foot of a rainbow using the pot of gold as the bank.

the closest you actually find to the IC is an extreme form of Monophystitsm called Aphthartodocetism, which was condemned not only by Rome at the time, but the non-Chalcedonians as well.
 
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Magnus Maximus

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conformed to her nature, that is conformed to the fallen nature which resulted in a natural death.
QUOTE]

Well that is completely wrong because Mary was assumed body and soul, she did not day a natural death, but slept until she was assumed body and soul. She was already in a glorified state since she was with out sin

Mary did not die but was assumed-

This is supported by the wages of sin is death--Mary did not have sin therefore did not die but was assumed
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think the quotes are pretty clear, but your hearts hardened to the truth

of course you do, you would not be RC if this were not the case. the problem is that those quotes don't actually define the IC as you define it. quotes that call her all holy and spotless, and that hearken unto the holiness of her conception do not validate your belief because they do not mention either merits or the stain of original sin (original guilt). you are doing the same thing that Mormons do when they read John 1:21 and think the Prophet refers to Joseph Smith. it's not that we are blinded, it's that you have shown nothing concrete.

Plus Mary herself said "I am the Immaculate Conception" so I will just take her word, as that is above any word that the Church Fathers could utter.

which, as you pointed out, happened nearly 2000 years after the fact. and you admit that this teaching is not consistent with the early Church.

so you have nothing aside from vagueness, and repeatedly saying you are right, just because you say you are right.
 
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prodromos

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I think the quotes are pretty clear, but your hearts hardened to the truth
Text without context is pretext.
Plus Mary herself said "I am the Immaculate Conception" so I will just take her word, as that is above any word that the Church Fathers could utter.
How has it been determined beyond any doubt that it was indeed Mary?
Galatians 1:8
 
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ArmyMatt

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funny how the Dormition of the Mother of God goes back to the early 400's and Cyril of Scythopolis said that her death was confirmed at Chalcedon by a discussion of the Emperor to the Patriarch of Jerusalem. and the concept of her assumption without death is MUCH more modern.

we believe she was assumed or translated after she had died, so if you try to rebut this, please don't do what you did with the IC. please don't just quote folks who speak of her translation or assumption, since we believe in that. find stuff from the early centuries that clearly show that she did not die.

and if you have anything concerning the IC that actually brings up the merits of Christ to remove the stain of original sin, and not what you used before which spoke of the holiness of her conception and life, you might get somewhere.
 
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buzuxi02

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:scratch::scratch:
I think the quotes are pretty clear, but your hearts hardened to the truth

Plus Mary herself said "I am the Immaculate Conception" so I will just take her word, as that is above any word that the Church Fathers could utter.

:scratch: Where was this said?
We know from the writings of the earliest Father's such as St.Athanasius 'On the Incarnation' terms such as spotless and pure were simply adjectives for virginity.

Again get your hands on the Melkite catholic text for the Service of the Anunciation and read the matinal canon, it contradicts the IC.
 
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ArmyMatt

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:scratch: Where was this said?

I do believe it was around 1900ish years after the fact, so long after the Schism. it holds the same intellectual weight as Mormons saying the have Apostolic succession because they say Christ gave it to them. zero evidence to support the idea of the IC from the earliest centuries, but has Magnus pointed out in his post that you quoted, what do those Church Fathers know?
 
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RaphaCam

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We call the holy Theotokos immaculate in our hymns very frequently, those quotes are no news. I believe the problem with IC is more than anything of hamartiological nature. Given what RC's have elaborated from Adam's sin, it's kind of understandable that they got to this doctrine.
 
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The problem with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that it is not taught in the Bible. The Bible nowhere describes Mary as anything but an ordinary human female whom God chose to be the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ. Mary was undoubtedly a godly woman (Luke 1:28). Mary was surely a wonderful wife and mother. Jesus definitely loved and cherished His mother (John 19:27). The Bible gives us no reason to believe that Mary was sinless. In fact, the Bible gives us every reason to believe that Jesus Christ is the only Person who was not “infected” by sin and never committed a sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5).

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception originated out of confusion over how Jesus Christ could be born sinless if He was conceived inside of a sinful human female. The thought was that Jesus would have inherited a sinful nature from Mary had she been a sinner. In contrast to the Immaculate Conception, the biblical solution to this problem is that Jesus Himself was miraculously protected from being polluted by sin while He was inside Mary's womb. If God was capable of protecting Mary from sin, would He not be able to protect Jesus from sin? Therefore, Mary being sinless is neither necessary nor biblical.

The Roman Catholic Church argues that the Immaculate Conception is necessary because without it, Jesus would have been the object of His own grace. The thought goes like this – for Jesus to have been miraculously preserved from sin, which itself would be an act of grace, would mean God essentially “graced Himself.” The word grace means “unmerited favor.” Grace is giving someone something he or she does not deserve. God performing a miracle in preserving Jesus from sin is not “grace.” In no sense could Jesus possibly be infected with sin. He was perfect and sinless humanity joined with sinless divinity. God cannot be infected or affected by sin, as He is perfectly holy. This same truth applies to Jesus. It did not take “grace” to protect Jesus from sin. Being God incarnate, Jesus was in His essence “immune” from sin.

So, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is neither biblical nor necessary. Jesus was miraculously conceived inside Mary, who was a virgin at the time. That is the biblical concept of the virgin birth. The Bible does not even hint that there was anything significant about Mary’s conception. If we examine this concept logically, Mary’s mother would have to be immaculately conceived as well. How could Mary be conceived without sin if her mother was sinful? The same would have to be said of Mary’s grandmother, great-grandmother, and so on. So, in conclusion, the Immaculate Conception is not a biblical teaching. The Bible teaches the miraculous virgin conception of Jesus Christ, not the immaculate conception of Mary.

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