Why do people believe in a Rapture?

iamlamad said:

Riberra said:

John 14
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

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And here I was sure Peter said he was willing to die for Jesus.

In context, they were thinking that Jesus went to heaven, would prepare homes for them there, and come and get them and take them to the homes prepared.

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BABerean2 said in post 4235:

If you can show us a 7 year stay in heaven within the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, we would all like to see it.

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tanzel said in post 4236:

Below in the Book Revelation we will see the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters is the Roman Catholic Church.

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tanzel said in post 4236:

What church holds fast the name of the Lord? Does not the Roman Catholic Church? This church is steal casting a stumbling block before the children of Israel. This church possesses the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which the Lord hates. What is some of this doctrine?

1. The Law is no more

2. You are saved already

3. Babbling is speaking in tongues

4. You are born again already

5. You will be Raptured off the earth

6. The Trinity

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tanzel said in post 4236:

What church holds fast the name of the Lord? Does not the Roman Catholic Church? This church is steal casting a stumbling block before the children of Israel. This church possesses the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which the Lord hates. What is some of this doctrine?

1. The Law is no more

2. You are saved already

3. Babbling is speaking in tongues

4. You are born again already

5. You will be Raptured off the earth

6. The Trinity

7. Jesus loves everyone

8. You can eat what ever you want just pray over it

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tanzel said in post 4236:

[Rev 17]
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

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iamlamad said in post 4240:

Paul's method of salvation for Gentiles" Believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and then confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.

Peter's method: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism seemed to be a big part of salvation for Jews. What did Paul say about it?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:

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iamlamad said in post 4240:

Paul's gospel was that Jesus TOOK OUR PLACE and TOOK OUR PUNISHMENT for sins upon Himself - in fact for the entire world. I can find no place Peter preached this in Acts or Jesus preaching it in the gospels.

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iamlamad said in post 4242:

After the pretrib rapture, Paul's gospel is FINISHED. Read Rev. 14 - the messages of the angels for the Gospel then.

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Short Timer said in post 4244:

You quite obviously don't know what all happen to the world, and the people on it, before it gets to the second coming.

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Short Timer said in post 4244:

You quite obviously don't know what all happen to the world, and the people on it, before it gets to the second coming.

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Short Timer said in post 4244:

Only a 144000 are sealed, all Jews, and the locust torture everyone else, with them praying to die and can't,
Do you have an explanation of why the "Body of Christ" would be tortured like that???

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tanzel said:

Praise the Lord...in Jesus name

We are now at the seventh Head, this next kingdom which is the worst of them all is the Roman Empire. Notice Daniel gives the Prophesy years before it comes to past. This prophecy was given before the

Greeks headed up by Alexander the great had even possessed the kingdom. The Roman Empire was also called the Holy Roman Empire. This Empire was the worst, meaning they not only killed you physically but spiritually also.

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. 2 And now will I show thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. 3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

This fourth kingdom was so bad the Lord didn’t have an animal in the creation to liken it to. As you will see below quoted from the Grolier Encyclopedia the Roman Empire conquered the Greek Empire, aligning with scripture.

In the history of Greco-Roman civilization the period between the death (323 ©) of Alexander the Great, king of Macedonia, and the beginning of the Roman Empire (30 ©) is usually called the Hellenistic Age. The genius of the Romans lay in the military, in government administration, and in the law. Decisive but cautious imperialists, they valued crafty diplomacy as much as military discipline. The Romans conquered Greece, adopting Greek culture and transmitting it to the medieval world. Unlike the Greeks, they did not develop a philosophical theory of state and society; they were the practitioners of power and law. Roman civil law, which reached its peak under the emperors, excelled in precision of formulation and logic of thought; but it was a law of inequality and social prejudice, and that also became part of the Roman heritage.

Below in Daniel you will see this is a terrible beast, this beast is the worst of them all, we will find out later why.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Romulus Augustulus was the last Roman Emperor, after him the Roman Empire must rise and fall 10 times. This is what the ten horns represent. This kingdom has risen and fallen nine times. At this very moment the Roman Empire is gaining strength every day for it’s tenth and final ascension. In Daniel below you will see a little horn came up among the ten. This little horn is also alive a well preparing for its defeat by the God of heaven. Three Germanic tribes defeated Romulus Augustulus, thus ending the Ancient

Roman Empire. This is where the ten horns come into play. This is a quote from the Grolier Encyclopedia showing Augustulus defeat.

From 395 the empire was permanently divided into the Latin Western and the Greek Eastern or Byzantine Empire. The Eastern Empire lived on until 1453, when the Turks conquered Constantinople. The Western Empire was overrun and gradually dismembered by various Germanic tribes. In 410 the Visigoths (see Goths) and in 455 the Vandals plundered the city of Rome. Finally in 476 the German Odoacer deposed the last emperor of the west, the child Romulus Augustulus. And so the history of ancient Rome ended ingloriously. The idea of Rome and of the Roman Empire, however, survived its fall, and from the symbiosis of Roman and Germanic elements arose the new states and societies of medieval Europe.

The quote below will show the third tribe, which is the Herulians. They also were apart of Romulus Augustulus defeat. (“The Pictorial History of Italian People”)

Another general, Orestes (possibly a Roman and not a barbarian), nominated his teen-age son, Romulus Augustus, emperor in 475. In the following year Odoacer, leader of a motley collection of mercenaries, mainly Herulians, deposed Romulus Augustus (nicknamed Augustulus) after having defeated and killed Orestes. The year 476 is generally accepted as marking the end of the Roman state in Italy. Actually the events of that year meant little to contemporaries. Odoacer was just one of many German tribal leaders who, since the beginning of the century, had carved a state in Roman territory for themselves and their followers.

Each horn tries to restore the Ancient Roman Empire but was later defeated. These 3 tribes were the Ostrogoths, Vandals, and Herulians. These three represent the first 3 horns on the beast. These three were plucked up by the roots by the fourth horn.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The little horn that came up among the ten is the Papacy. You will see as we go along in this study that the Pope’s gave the kings there power. This is why Daniel made this statement, “there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots”.

Justinian is the fourth horn on the beast. He took out these three tribes. (Grolier Encyclopedia) Justinian's aim was the restoration of the earlier Roman Empire by reconquest of areas lost to the Germanic tribes. With the help of his general Belisarius, he regained North Africa from the Vandals (533-34) and, after a lengthy war (535-54), Italy from the Ostrogoths (see Goths). Justinian also acquired southeastern Spain. Repeated wars with the Sassanian Persians, however, usually ended with the Byzantines buying peace; and the Slavs occupied much of the Balkan Peninsula.

Quoted from “The Pictorial History of Italian People” (below)

Odoacer governed Italy nominally as representative of the Roman emperor in the East. In reality he acted as an independent ruler, and inefficiently. In 488, the Ostrogoths, authorized since around 450 by the government in Constantinople to settle on the right bank of the middle Danube, were led into Italy by their leader, King Theodoric II. Besieged in Ravenna, Odoacer surrendered and was assassinated in 493. The Herulians were never heard of again.

In 535 the Roman emperor in the East, the able Justinian, bent on reestablishing the unity of the Empire, sent an expeditionary force to Italy. In his eyes, as in the eyes of all native Italians, Italy was still very much an integral part of the Roman State. Surprised initially by the attack, the Goths soon rallied behind their leaders. While most Italians looked on, a ferocious war was fought for nearly two decades between the armies of the Gothic kings and those of the legitimate ruler, the emperor. Finally defeated, the Ostrogoths disappeared from the pages of history

Once again you see world history lines up with the scripture. All three of these Germanic tribes were defeated. As its states in the Book of Daniel these three were plucked up by the roots. After the Last Roman Cesar was defeat by these Germanic Tribes there were seven kings left. These kings all had a common purpose, and that was to restore the Ancient Roman Empire. We will name six of the kings the seven is yet to come. Now let’s return to the scripture.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

These seven kings are the remaining horns on the beast in Daniel 7:7. Each one of these kings had the blessing of the Pope. The first is Justinian, the quote below is from Reader’s Digest (THE LAST 2 MILLION YEARS PAGES 123,121.)

The golden age of Justinian, page 123.

One of the greatest of the Byzantine emperors came to the throne in 527. He was Justinian I, whose 38-year reign was distinguished by three major achievements. He reconquered much of the old Western Empire; he modernized Roman Law; and built hundreds of churches, including the magnificent Hagia Sophia, the church of the holy wisdom, in Constantinople. He devoted his long reign to trying recreate the old Roman Empire as it was when dominated the Mediterranean throughout the centuries before the barbarian invasion. He succeeded in driving the Vandals from Africa and the Ostrogoths from Italy.

Page 121. The magnificent Hagia Sophia, the church of the holy wisdom, was completed by Justinian in 537 and became the focus of religious life in Constantinople. Processions filed in an out of its doors on the frequent saints days, and most Byzantine emperors after Justinian were crowned in the church. More than 10,000 people worked on the building of Hagia Sophia; when it was finished, Justinian is said to have exclaimed, Solomon I have out done the.

The next was Charlemagne. This Quote is from “The Pictorial History Of Italian People” page 81.

Charlemagne himself remained ever after a major figure of Italian lore as did, with modified names, the English monk Alcuin (Charle-magne's trusted adviser for many years) and the gal-lant knight Roland. All Italians certainly took pride in the revived title of Roman emperor and in the great ceremony at which Pope Leo III crowned Charle-magne in the old Basilica of Saint Peter's in Rome, on Christmas Day of the year 800; There had been no emperor of the West since 476: now Italy seemed again to be the leading Western nation.

Quote from Funk and Wagnall’s online encyclopedia, under Holy Roman Empire.

On December 25, 800, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne emperor. This act established both a precedent and a political structure that were destined to figure decisively in the affairs of central Europe. The precedent established the papal claim to the right to select, crown, and even depose emperors that was asserted, at least in theory, for nearly 700 years. In its primary stage, the resurrected Western Empire endured as an effective political entity for less than 25 years after the death of Charlemagne in 814. The reign of his son and successor, Louis I, was marked by feudal and fratricidal strife that climaxed in 843 in partition of the empire. For an account of the growth, vicissitudes, and final dissolution of the Frankish realm, see FRANCE.


The third was Otto the great. Quote from Funk and Wagnall’s online encyclopedia, under Holy Roman Empire.

Despite the dissension within the newly created Western Empire, the popes maintained the imperial organization and the imperial title, mainly within the Carolingian dynasty, for most of the 9th century. The emperors exercised little authority beyond the confines of their dominions, however. After the reign (905-24) of Berengar I of Friuli (850?- 924), also styled as king of Italy or ruler of Lombardy, who was crowned emperor by Pope John X, the imperial throne remained vacant for nearly four decades. The East Frankish kingdom, or Germany, capably led by Henry I and Otto I, emerged as the strongest power in Europe during this period. Besides being a capable and ambitious sovereign, Otto I was an ardent friend of the Roman Catholic church, as revealed by his appointment of clerics to high office, by his missionary activities east of the Elbe River, and finally by his military campaigns, at the behest of Pope John XII, against Berengar II (900?-66), king of Italy. In 962, in recognition of Otto's services, John XII awarded him the imperial crown and title.

The 4th Charles V Quoted from Grolier Encyclopedia.

Charles V, Holy Roman emperor (1519-56) and Ñas Charles IÑking of Spain (1516-56), dominated the politics of Europe for 40 years. Charles was born in Ghent, in present-day Belgium, on Feb. 24, 1500, the eldest son of the Habsburg Philip the Handsome (later Philip I) and Joan the Mad of Castile. From his father, who died in 1506, he inherited the Netherlands and Joan the Mad of Castile. From his father, who died in 1506, he inherited the Netherlands (including most of the modern Netherlands and Belgium) and Franche Comt? (a French-speaking province that bordered eastern France but belonged to the Holy Roman Empire). After the death (1516) of his maternal grandfather, Ferdinand II of Aragon, Charles became ruler of the kingdoms of Spain and the Spanish dependencies in ItalyÑthe kingdoms of Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia. The Habsburg possessions of Austria and several smaller south German lordships came to him on the death (1519) of his paternal grandfather, Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I, as did hereditary claims to the crowns of Hungary and Bohemia. The latter were made good by his younger brother Ferdinand (later Emperor Ferdinand I) in 1526, after the last independent king of Hungary, Louis II, was killed by the Turks in the Battle of Moh‡cs. Meanwhile, in 1519, Charles had been elected German king and Holy Roman emperor in succession to his grandfather Maximilian.


The 5th was Napoleon Bonaparte, Quoted from Grolier Encyclopedia


With peace restored, Bonaparte extended French influence into Holland (the Batavian Republic), Switzerland (the Helvetic Republic), and Savoy-Piedmont, which was annexed to France; he played the major role in the Imperial Recess (1803), by which the free cities and minor states of the Holy Roman Empire were consolidated; and he attempted to extend the French colonial empire, principally by recovering Haiti (see Louisiana Purchase). As a result of these policies and his refusal to grant trade concessions to Britain, war was renewed in 1803. In the wake of these events, which revived royalist hostility, the Senate petitioned Bonaparte to establish a hereditary dynasty. On Dec. 2, 1804, therefore, Napoleon crowned himself emperor in a ceremony presided over by Pope Pius VII. Napoleon created a titled court that included many of his statesmen and generals as well as ex-royalists. Believing that family ties were more durable than treaties, in the next few years he placed members of his family on the thrones of several satellite states Naples, Holland, Westphalia, and SpainÑand married his relatives to some of the most distinguished families in Europe.


The 6th was Benito Mussolini Quoted from Grolier Encyclopedia.

On Mar. 23, 1919, Mussolini and other war veterans founded in Milan a revolutionary, nationalistic group called the Fasci di Combattimento, named for the ancient Roman symbol of power, the fasces. His Fascist movement developed into a powerful "radicalism of the right," gaining the support of many landowners in the lower Po valley, industrialists, and army officers.

Fascist black shirt squads carried on local civil war against Socialists, Communists, Catholics, and Liberals. fas'-eez : In ancient Rome, fasces were rods of elm or birch tied together with leather thongs around an ax with projecting blade, used as a symbol of authority. They were carried by lictors (guards) walking in advance of public officials including praetors, consuls, proconsuls, victorious generals, dictators, and emperors. The Italian Fascist party adopted the fasces as its emblem and took its name from them.

Quote from Reader Digest “THE LAST 2 MILLION YEARS PAGE 409.

With its uniform of black shirts and slogan, no discussion only obedience, the fascist party came to power. Mussolini ordered his followers to march on Rome in 1922; the king gave way before this show of force and called on Mussolini to form a government. Mussolini gradually transformed Italy into a dictatorship, basing his policies on the idea of corporative state. Under his rule, the Fascist attempted to control every major aspect of Italian life. He took the title of Il Duce (the leader) and suppressed parliament, retaining the monarchy as a figure-head. The Duce had grandiose ambition of reviving the glories of Ancient Rome and making the Italians once again a conquering, militaristic people. These ambition, strengthen by the memory of humiliating defeat the Italians had suffered at Adowa in Ethiopia in 1896, led him to attack and conquer Ethiopia in 1935-6.

As you have seen above each one of these Leaders tried to restore the Ancient Roman Empire and failed. Notice also how the Papacy played a major role in each of these leaders reign. Prophecy cannot be broken, keep your eye on Europe the 7th king will show himself soon.

We will now return to the scripture. Below in the Book Revelation we will see the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters is the Roman Catholic Church. The waters are millions of people that follow this bad doctrine put forth by this church. The city where the harlot sits is Vatican City. Documented history will show us the exact location of this city, so you will have no doubt in your mind were this city is.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Is this a literal wine? No. The Lord is giving you a physical side to understand a spiritual side. Let’s let the scripture explain this for us. Take a look at these verses in the Book of Isaiah.

Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

If they are not drunk with wine, what are they drunk from? Pay close attention to Isaiah.

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

Notice it said the Lord has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. Why has he done this? Here is the answer.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

This is why the Lord has done this. This people can care less about what the Lord says. They go about with their own doctrine. The Book clearly states the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, these people teach don’t fear Him. Fear means fear, and everyone on the planet will know what fear is all about when they see the sky roll back like a scroll. What is this doctrine called? Where did these people get it? Take a look at these verses in the Book of Revelations.

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

What church holds fast the name of the Lord? Does not the Roman Catholic Church? This church is steal casting a stumbling block before the children of Israel. This church possesses the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which the Lord hates. What is some of this doctrine?

1. The Law is no more

2. You are saved already

3. Babbling is speaking in tongues

4. You are born again already

5. You will be Raptured off the earth

6. The Trinity

7. Jesus loves everyone

8. You can eat what ever you want just pray over it

9. Female preachers

10. Confess your sins to a man in a box

11. Christmas

12. Easter

13. Good Friday

14. Sunrise service

15. Sunday is the Lord’s

16. Lent

17. Ash Wednesday

18. You don’t have to read the old testament, etc…

This is some of the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, notice also above in revelation it said that Satan’s seat was there. Let’s go a little further In Revelation 17 and see if we can locate his seat.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Notice how the woman is sitting on the beast. If you sit on a horse, who is doing the guiding you or the horse? You are. The same thing is being done here, the woman is riding the beast and controlling it. Notice something else, the beast has seven heads and ten horns. Who is this beast? Let’s find out.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Satan doesn’t look like this, he is a cherub angel (Ezk. 1). This simply shows who this beats is ran by. In the book Of Daniel the Gentiles are call the children of the prince (Satan), the Gentiles headed up by the Roman General Titus are the ones who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Knowing now that Satan runs the Gentile dynasty let’s find out where he sits. Back to Revelation 17.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Let’s see if we can find out what city sits on seven mountains. This Quote is from the Pictorial History of Italian People page 31.

Romans were now confident in their own strength. When, after over thirty years of nearly continual fighting, this round of wars ended, the small independent township centered on the seven hills had become a state embracing most of what is today's Latium and parts of Umbria.

Quote from Grolier Encyclopedia below.

The Seven Hills of Rome are the hills on which the ancient city was built. Of volcanic origin and situated on the east bank of the Tiber River, they consist of the Palatine, which lies at approximately the center of the hills, the Capitoline in the northwest, and the Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, and Aventine in the southwest. According to tradition, Romulus, the city's legendary founder, established the original settlement on the Palatine Hill, which, during the Roman Empire, was the site of the emperors' palaces. The other hills were incorporated as parts of Rome by a succession of early kings. The Servian Wall, which surrounded the seven hills, was built in the 4th century ©; parts of it still survive.

Next, will deal with those Ten Horn which are Ten King

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Bible2+ said:

The tribulation's purpose with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the purpose of righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the purpose of, for example, the righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) having to suffer and die in a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10).

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Riberra said:

That is not what the apostles were thinking based on what Thomas said:
John 14
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, WE know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

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tanzel said:

Praise the Lord...in Jesus name

We are now at the seventh Head, this next kingdom which is the worst of them all is the Roman Empire. Notice Daniel gives the Prophesy years before it comes to past. This prophecy was given before the

Greeks headed up by Alexander the great had even possessed the kingdom. The Roman Empire was also called the Holy Roman Empire. This Empire was the worst, meaning they not only killed you physically but spiritually also.

...


1. The Law is no more

2. You are saved already

3. Babbling is speaking in tongues

4. You are born again already

5. You will be Raptured off the earth

6. The Trinity

7. Jesus loves everyone

8. You can eat what ever you want just pray over it

9. Female preachers

10. Confess your sins to a man in a box

11. Christmas

12. Easter

13. Good Friday

14. Sunrise service

15. Sunday is the Lord’s

16. Lent

17. Ash Wednesday

18. You don’t have to read the old testament, etc…

This is some of the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, notice also above in revelation it said that Satan’s seat was there. Let’s go a little further In Revelation 17 and see if we can locate his seat.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Notice how the woman is sitting on the beast. If you sit on a horse, who is doing the guiding you or the horse? You are. The same thing is being done here, the woman is riding the beast and controlling it. Notice something else, the beast has seven heads and ten horns. Who is this beast? Let’s find out.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Satan doesn’t look like this, he is a cherub angel (Ezk. 1). This simply shows who this beats is ran by. In the book Of Daniel the Gentiles are call the children of the prince (Satan), the Gentiles headed up by the Roman General Titus are the ones who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Knowing now that Satan runs the Gentile dynasty let’s find out where he sits. Back to Revelation 17.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Let’s see if we can find out what city sits on seven mountains. This Quote is from the Pictorial History of Italian People page 31.

Romans were now confident in their own strength. When, after over thirty years of nearly continual fighting, this round of wars ended, the small independent township centered on the seven hills had become a state embracing most of what is today's Latium and parts of Umbria.

Quote from Grolier Encyclopedia below.

The Seven Hills of Rome are the hills on which the ancient city was built. Of volcanic origin and situated on the east bank of the Tiber River, they consist of the Palatine, which lies at approximately the center of the hills, the Capitoline in the northwest, and the Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, and Aventine in the southwest. According to tradition, Romulus, the city's legendary founder, established the original settlement on the Palatine Hill, which, during the Roman Empire, was the site of the emperors' palaces. The other hills were incorporated as parts of Rome by a succession of early kings. The Servian Wall, which surrounded the seven hills, was built in the 4th century ©; parts of it still survive.

Next, will deal with those Ten Horn which are Ten King

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Short Timer said:

Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.



And it "very plainly" says there is a wedding of Jesus/church that Israel "does not attend",

And that wedding is the pre trib rapture of the church and the week the covenant is confirmed with the church.

"IF" you understood the purpose of the trib then you would understand the purpose of the Pre trib rapture,

Neither of which ya'll understand.





I believe the "KING", (God) the one who made the wedding, lives in heaven, the same place Jesus went to prepare for us and said he would come again in a "Mystery" coming to take us to the place he prepared.

And you have to "butcher" the scriptures in order to deny that.



The only one I find in scripture who is in heaven and kicked out is the devil, and it's after he is kicked out that he starts persecuting Israel, the same one who refused the invitation to the wedding.




Scripture says Israel refused the invitation to the Son's wedding, so when does this wedding take place that Israel does attend?????

The CANA marriage, at the second coming, after the trib is the marriage Israel does attend, it's when the church and Israel become "One", until then they are kept separate, just as they are today,

The fulness of the Gentiles (rapture) must occur before God will deal with Israel during the trib and bring some of them into "Christ",

Israel and Jesus are not married until the trib, Israel must become "Dead to the law" before they can be married to Jesus, and the trib does that.





OK, if you want to deny that the "king" lives in heaven and satan is there accusing us before God and is kicked out of heaven,

Go ahead, but you get my point in my previous post about being "dishonest".



Not between Jesus/church, but it does between Jesus/Israel until the second coming.

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tanzel said:

Its ok, you can ask question now, that way we don't have any misunderstanding up to this point.

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iamlamad said:

Riberra said:

That is not what the apostles were thinking based on what Thomas said:
John 14
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, WE know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

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That as "doubting" Thomas. Jesus said they KNEW where He was going /and the way ye know.. I would take Jesus' word over Thomas's any day

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Postvieww said:

.
Short Timer
the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it

Why should the church have to suffer through it????


I challenge you to prove your 99.9 % claim with scripture.<Staff Edit>

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Postvieww said:

Short Timer said : Not between Jesus/church, but it does between Jesus/Israel until the second coming.

Were those Jesus was speaking to part of the church now?

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Short Timer said:

Anything I tell you I can prove with scripture, If I can't, I'll say so.

What is the purpose of the Trib, here it is.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, (AC) and with the stripes of the children of men:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod (AC) of mine anger, and the staff (leadership/power) in their hand is mine indignation.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Ps 125:3 For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous;

The church is not guilty of "Iniquity", unless they've backslid as Israel has done and deserve "Chastisement" along with Israel.

You're doctrine of the church going into the trib accuses God of "Chasten" those who are "accounted Worthy" to escape and being chasten along with those "not accounted worthy".

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

With the devil/AC given power over the whole earth, nobody on the earth could escape, or would escape except Jesus returned.

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth

and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

For those "Accounted worthy" the only way to prevent the "Rod of the wicked" from beating/striping (resting on) them is too be removed from the earth.

That's when the Fulness of the Gentiles comes in and the "Comforter/HG/Church" go to the Son's wedding for the "Week" of the trib.

And because Israel rejected Jesus they are "left behind" to be "Chasten" for that rejection.

Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Like I said, If you don't understand the purpose of the trib then you won't understand why the rapture is pre trib.

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Postvieww said:

Short Timer said:

Anything I tell you I can prove with scripture, If I can't, I'll say so.

Well then prove 99.9% of the world’s population will be killed. Using scripture not conjecture. If you can’t, say so and we’ll move on.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This scripture above you posted does not back you up, power over all does not equate to kill all.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

AC does not kill all that worship him, and that appears to be a pretty large crowd. You were ask a specific question , try to stay on topic. None of the verses in your post address to question.

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