Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Status
Not open for further replies.

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Part 1 Postvieww bold type
...


How can you make this about the houses prepared coming down? If the FIRST readers of John read this, NOT KNOWING about Revelation at all, what would THEY think about these verses? I submit they were NEVER come up with the idea that heaven would come down to them! The theme of this passage is his going. Sorry, but you are the one stretching this one!

You cannot interpret scripture based on what you think the “FIRST readers” thought. You accuse me of stretching?????

But the readers of John THEN, when John wrote, did not know that! All they knew (in context) was they He was going, they could not follow, and He would prepare houses for them in "My Father's house." They did not know about Armageddon.

They did know Matt 24:29 “ Immediately after the tribulation” they heard Jesus say it in person.
In truth, If a theory only fits today and not when it was written, it is most likely WRONG. (hint hint!)

OF COURSE the correct interpretation, the very intent of the Author when He had John write, had to fit those who heard Him say it. And the CORRECT interpretation does: they were thinking going to heaven, not heaven coming to them. Your theory is VERY WEAK. By the way, only those present heard Jesus. I believe MANY read John's gospel in the years after he wrote it - but died before they got to read Revelation.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Part 1 Postvieww bold type

...

They did not know about His coming on a white horse. All they knew at that time was that He was going, and they were not going with Him. I believe they DID know there would be a time that Jesus would set up an earthly kingdom. I doubt seriously if any suspected heaven would come to them. When Jesus mentioned "His Father's house, their minds went to HEAVEN. Then when He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself," their mind was still on heaven. I am convinced of it.

Ok, your convinced, but it still does not say anything about going back.

It is not an assumption: it is written that "He comes with 10,000's of His saints." It is you who assume He comes with 10,000's of His saints who have died and He is only bringing their spirits.

No assumption, that is what we are told in scripture about those in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

It is you who assumes some of these groups in heaven are raptured, resurrected saints with no clearly stated proof as I have just given you.

It is obvious to me in the context written. I am convinced it is what the first readers of John's book thought.

it still does not say anything about going back.
You have to assume He did not.

No assumption, that is what we are told in scripture about those in heaven.
There are TWO scriptures about people coming with Jesus. The first, in 1 Thes. is certainly about spirits coming. You have to assume the second is about the same event - I assume it is not. My assumption is MUCH stronger, for it was Enoch (7th from Adam) that wrote this. His coming (to fight at Armageddon) was prophesied over and over in the Old Covenant. Old Timer has stated time and again that His coming as seen in Rev. 19 was WELL KNOWN from Old testament scriptures. His coming for the rapture was a SECRET until Paul wrote about it. You are MIXING Gentile church with Jews and Israel as in the 70th week. That period of time is for DANIEL and HIS people - and has nothing to do with the church.

(Enoch)
1Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him

CLEARLY this is the Rev. 19 coming. One would have to assume it was also the 1 Thes. coming. It cannot be simply because it does not FIT. Paul's rapture fits at the 6th seal, NOT at the 7th vial or later.

NEITHER of the groups you mention got to heaven by way of rapture. The first group get their by way of dying. The second group seen under the altar got there the same way, but their death was as a martyr.
 
Upvote 0

Riberra

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2014
5,098
594
✟90,164.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't think the first readers of John were thinking of a 2000 year wait! I doubt any were thinking it would be that long. Just a few weeks or months past John 14, after Jesus had risen from the dead, what was on their mind? WHEN would He begin His earthly kingdom!


When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

No 2000 year wait on their mind. Neither do I think they know anything of God's 7000 year plan.
You get it right, here.

When they heard Jesus say that He was going to make a home for them in heaven, they were probably wondering how soon they could get there.
Now you get it wrong and contradicting yourself . If they were expecting Jesus returning just a few weeks or months past John 14 for establishing His Kingdom on the EARTH as you said above (which is right), they surely not have in mind a trip to Heaven

They have in mind to be with Jesus in His Earthly Kingdom during their lifetime..
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Part 2 Postvieww bold type

Since there is no trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin. 15 anywhere in the entire chapter, so there cannot be one right!!

Touché! It works both ways.

Not really , show me one verse that clearly states we go back to heaven. You’ve already claimed John 14 and that is in question . “In the mouth of two or three” surely you can find one more. Really ,you can’t with scripture get the church any higher that the clouds.

There is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet to be fulfilled in scripture. 1 Corin 15 is that resurrection.

If you mean by this that there will be only ONE MOMENT in time for all righteous dead to arise, I disagree. I cannot fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into Rev. 19. It is like a square peg in a round hole. It fits perfectly into Rev. 6. Again this is a point that simply cannot be proven. People have been arguing this point for years. All we can prove is that there WILL BE a resurrection of the righteous.

1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This is the timing of the resurrection. 1. At His coming. 2. Then cometh the end 3. when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God 4. When he shall have put down all rule and all authority. A perfect description of the second coming. You have to figure out a way to make this passage sound like a pretrib coming , GOOD LUCK! Please don’t try to insert 7 years between verse 23 and 24.
There is certainly more than one, but not written clearly. For example, you will end up living through God's wrath, setting your OWN appointment, when there are at least three scriptures telling us we can escape it. Which would you RATHER do: live through His wrath (until the Beast cuts off your head) or ESCAPE? It is your choice.

Christ the firstfruits: exactly! He was the very first resurrection of the FIRST resurrection. Certainly those in 1 thes. 4 will be the second wave of resurrections. And they will come BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins.

Note: the dead in Christ CANNOT rise both before and after the DAY begins: it must be one or the other. Paul tells us BEFORE.

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
There are certainly events and much TIME between these two sayings. For example, the 1000 years!
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father


A perfect description of the second coming. I agree. But not the coming as written in chapter 19. It is his coming in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. This statement by Paul is quite like many statements in the Old Testament where there are many events in-between.

Isaiah 61:1-2 HCSB The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, because theLORD has anointed Me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and freedom to the prisoners; to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of our God's vengeance; to comfort all who mourn,

Jesus only quoted the part in RED. He could not quote the rest, for it STILL has not come to pass.

You have to figure out a way to make this passage sound like a pretrib coming No, because I understand there is much time between the two parts of what Paul wrote. John never gets to the part where Jesus hands everything back to the Father. It cannot be at the 2nd coming, because there is still an uprising at the end of the 1000 years. It will probably not be until after the white throne judgment before all is given to the Father. My point? This coming could very well be a coming before the 70th week. Paul TELLS US it is a coming. Many pretrib teachers won't call it a "coming." Paul did.

Please don’t try to insert 7 years between verse 23 and 24.

It is more like a thousand and 7.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
You get it right, here.


Now you get it wrong and contradicting yourself . If they were expecting Jesus returning just a few weeks or months past John 14 for establishing His Kingdom on the EARTH as you said above (which is right), they surely not have in mind a trip to Heaven

They have in mind to be with Jesus in His Earthly Kingdom during their lifetime..
Good point! Did they expect to die before His Kingdom was established? Probably not at that moment. Probably at that moment they had FORGOTTEN what Jesus said about His coming to get them! I still say at the time Jesus was telling them about the mansions in heaven, they wanted to go then - at least Peter SAID he would! The context there is Jesus going and going to prepare a place. It would have never entered their minds that the place prepared would come down to them!
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Part 2 Postvieww bold type

...

That you can overlook no mention of a catching up in 1 Corin 15 and demand direct mention of a resurrection in Rev 19. You are harmonizing 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 to get your desired result but don’t allow it in other cases that does not help your cause. ALL COMING OF THE LORD PASSAGES ARE THE SAME COMING !! Some details may vary just as in the example I just pointed which you accept those differences with no problem!!
We know that 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 are sister passages telling us about the resurrection / rapture. He does not mention a catching up in 1 Cor. But does mention it in 1 Thes.

This is just like Matthew and Luke telling about the Olivet Discourse. Luke mentions the great ESCAPE, while Matthew does not. Since I believe this discourse took place only ONCE and three wrote of it, the differences do not matter to me. I put them all together. All the comings mentioned CANNOT POSSIBLY be the same! First, they come at DIFFERENT TIMES. I CANNOT push the 6th seal to the 7th vial the way you so easily do. I CANNOT rearrange Rev. 19 to fit a theory. You seem to be able to do with with a clean conscience. It is not so much differences in two passages: it is difference that CANNOT be resolved.

For example, the signs in the sun and moon: one coming before the Day and as a warning to the day, and another coming as a warning for Jesus Rev. 19 coming. I cannot resolve these into one. I know that the DAY begins at the 6th seal. You think the DAY begins when Jesus comes at Armageddon.

We have issues that will not be resolved until these events happen. However, this same argument has been ongoing for years.
 
Upvote 0

Riberra

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2014
5,098
594
✟90,164.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good point! Did they expect to die before His Kingdom was established? Probably not at that moment. Probably at that moment they had FORGOTTEN what Jesus said about His coming to get them! I still say at the time Jesus was telling them about the mansions in heaven, they wanted to go then - at least Peter SAID he would!
Wrong ,when Peter asked if he can go with Jesus ...Jesus answered and said that where he will go (Heaven) no man can go there (alive).

The context there is Jesus going and going to prepare a place. It would have never entered their minds that the place prepared would come down to them!
Their souls have gone to Heaven (at a place prepared for them -born again /faithful believers-) after they died.Rather than going to Abraham bosom as it was the case for the -OT faithful believers- before Jesus' Resurrection, this is simple as that.

John 14King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible2+

Matthew 4:4
Sep 14, 2015
3,001
375
✟91,195.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
iamlamad said in post 4210:

If we read in Revelation, this marriage takes place in heaven before Jesus descends.

In Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

*******

iamlamad said in post 4219:

Paul's gathering is from EARTH ONLY. So from "the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." cannot be Paul's gathering.

Actually, it can.

For note that the rapture is not just a catching up from the earth, but also a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky (the 1st heaven) wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky, all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

*******

iamlamad said in post 4225:

You are MIXING Gentile church with Jews and Israel as in the 70th week. That period of time is for DANIEL and HIS people - and has nothing to do with the church.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

*******

iamlamad said in post 4229:

Luke mentions the great ESCAPE, while Matthew does not. Since I believe this discourse took place only ONCE and three wrote of it, the differences do not matter to me.

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in the 3rd heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
Upvote 0

Bible2+

Matthew 4:4
Sep 14, 2015
3,001
375
✟91,195.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Short Timer said in post 4214:

Paul revealed a coming of Jesus not known in the OT or by Israel, one that is over in the twinkling of an eye,

Note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
 
Upvote 0

Postvieww

Believer
Sep 29, 2014
4,630
1,335
South
✟108,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Apostasy or Departure of the church? One more time.

Departure as some wish was used in 2 Thess 2:3


2 Tim 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

Strong’s word 359 analusis from 360 analuo depart, return.

Simply means departure does not need to be interpreted. Paul did not use this word in 2 Thess 2:3


Falling away as used in 2 Thess 2:3

Strong’s word (646) apostasia defection from the truth, apostasy, falling away, forsake.

The other use of apostasia (646) in the NT

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

The context is forsaking the teaching of Moses. The same word in 2 Thess 2:3 used in the same way.


1 Thess 4:17 “Caught” (726) harpazo to seize, catch away, pluck, take by force.

“up”(4605) lifting up

Apostasy not used here. Paul new what words to use to clearly make his point.


Because one can find a couple of translations that say departure does not a case make. If someone can find one that says departure of the church , we can have a discussion about that. Some translations actually use departure from the faith, which is in keeping with the true definition of the word used. If fact the overwhelming number of translations favor apostasy in the classic sense, over 50 of them I checked 1 or 2 used departure, but none said departure of the church.

I have repeatedly shown scripture in other passages that confirm there will be a falling away from the faith in the last days. That is what Paul said in 2 Thess 2:3. Why would Paul be so confusing in this passage, when adequate words are numerous that would clearly make the point. Why would Paul use cryptic language in 2 Thess 2 when he used perfectly clear language in 1 Thess 4? Just another mystery I presume.

Can someone show me one unbiased scholar that does not have his life invested in the pretrib doctrine, that believes this passage translates DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH. I really do not care how many insert the word departure here it changes nothing.

The truth is here this passage refutes the pretrib doctrine .

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (The coming and gathering are the subject here)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (the day of Christ is the coming of the Lord and our gathering) is at hand. They thought it was imminent.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except (FOR EXCEPT WHAT? “For except” verse 3 happens first, Verse 1&2 is not going to happen) there come a falling away first (first before the coming and gathering), and that man of sin be revealed: ( and the man of sin is revealed also before the coming and gathering) the son of perdition;

Then “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him” can happen just like Jesus said it would happen. Paul and Jesus agree.

The falling away (apostasia) cannot be the gathering, because the falling away (apostasia) happens FIRST.

The words “that day shall not come” were added by the translators for clarity but are not necessary to understand the passage. It does tell us what they thought the true meaning was.

Below is the verse without the added words.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Changes nothing there is still an apostasia first.

There will be an apostasy in the last days.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The question is raised. Will there be a falling away before He comes?

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Plainly stated a falling away before the return of Christ.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Plainly stated “some shall depart from the faith” in the latter times.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

A time in the future when sound doctrine will not be endured. Apostasy

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

To “turn away their ears from the truth” is apostasy.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

“There shall be” sometime in the future ,” damnable heresies” and” false teachers” , apostasy.

2 Peter3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. “In the last days” there shall come scoffers and those who question His coming. Apostates.

Will there be a departing from the faith in the latter days? Scripture is clear, there will be.

All of the above verses speak of the same thing. What is different about 2 Thess 2:3? It refutes pre-trib doctrine so its clear meaning must be changed to something else.

 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is right there is Scripture.

If you can show us a 7 year stay in heaven within the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, we would all like to see it.

Dispensational Theology claims the Gospel Paul taught is different from the Gospel taught by Christ and the other Apostles, yet in Galatians chapter 1 Paul says any man who preaches another Gospel is to be accursed.

They teach that all of the promises to the Jews have not been fulfilled, but Paul states at Galatians 3:16 that the promises were made only to Christ.

They claim God is going to revert to the Old Sinai covenant for 7 years before the return of Christ, with Moses as the mediator instead of Christ. However, Paul says in Galatians chapter 4 that we are to cast out the Sinai covenant.

The only way a person can now be saved is through the New Blood Covenant of Christ predicted in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28, and fulfilled at John 19:30, and Hebrews 8:6-13.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Great Errors in Dispensational Theology: Pastor John Otis
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bro.T

Bible Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 17, 2008
2,405
200
U.S.
✟149,668.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
No questions at this time. Continue at your pace. Thanks again and God Bless.

Praise the Lord...in Jesus name

We are now at the seventh Head, this next kingdom which is the worst of them all is the Roman Empire. Notice Daniel gives the Prophesy years before it comes to past. This prophecy was given before the

Greeks headed up by Alexander the great had even possessed the kingdom. The Roman Empire was also called the Holy Roman Empire. This Empire was the worst, meaning they not only killed you physically but spiritually also.

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. 2 And now will I show thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. 3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

This fourth kingdom was so bad the Lord didn’t have an animal in the creation to liken it to. As you will see below quoted from the Grolier Encyclopedia the Roman Empire conquered the Greek Empire, aligning with scripture.

In the history of Greco-Roman civilization the period between the death (323 ©) of Alexander the Great, king of Macedonia, and the beginning of the Roman Empire (30 ©) is usually called the Hellenistic Age. The genius of the Romans lay in the military, in government administration, and in the law. Decisive but cautious imperialists, they valued crafty diplomacy as much as military discipline. The Romans conquered Greece, adopting Greek culture and transmitting it to the medieval world. Unlike the Greeks, they did not develop a philosophical theory of state and society; they were the practitioners of power and law. Roman civil law, which reached its peak under the emperors, excelled in precision of formulation and logic of thought; but it was a law of inequality and social prejudice, and that also became part of the Roman heritage.

Below in Daniel you will see this is a terrible beast, this beast is the worst of them all, we will find out later why.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Romulus Augustulus was the last Roman Emperor, after him the Roman Empire must rise and fall 10 times. This is what the ten horns represent. This kingdom has risen and fallen nine times. At this very moment the Roman Empire is gaining strength every day for it’s tenth and final ascension. In Daniel below you will see a little horn came up among the ten. This little horn is also alive a well preparing for its defeat by the God of heaven. Three Germanic tribes defeated Romulus Augustulus, thus ending the Ancient

Roman Empire. This is where the ten horns come into play. This is a quote from the Grolier Encyclopedia showing Augustulus defeat.

From 395 the empire was permanently divided into the Latin Western and the Greek Eastern or Byzantine Empire. The Eastern Empire lived on until 1453, when the Turks conquered Constantinople. The Western Empire was overrun and gradually dismembered by various Germanic tribes. In 410 the Visigoths (see Goths) and in 455 the Vandals plundered the city of Rome. Finally in 476 the German Odoacer deposed the last emperor of the west, the child Romulus Augustulus. And so the history of ancient Rome ended ingloriously. The idea of Rome and of the Roman Empire, however, survived its fall, and from the symbiosis of Roman and Germanic elements arose the new states and societies of medieval Europe.

The quote below will show the third tribe, which is the Herulians. They also were apart of Romulus Augustulus defeat. (“The Pictorial History of Italian People”)

Another general, Orestes (possibly a Roman and not a barbarian), nominated his teen-age son, Romulus Augustus, emperor in 475. In the following year Odoacer, leader of a motley collection of mercenaries, mainly Herulians, deposed Romulus Augustus (nicknamed Augustulus) after having defeated and killed Orestes. The year 476 is generally accepted as marking the end of the Roman state in Italy. Actually the events of that year meant little to contemporaries. Odoacer was just one of many German tribal leaders who, since the beginning of the century, had carved a state in Roman territory for themselves and their followers.

Each horn tries to restore the Ancient Roman Empire but was later defeated. These 3 tribes were the Ostrogoths, Vandals, and Herulians. These three represent the first 3 horns on the beast. These three were plucked up by the roots by the fourth horn.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The little horn that came up among the ten is the Papacy. You will see as we go along in this study that the Pope’s gave the kings there power. This is why Daniel made this statement, “there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots”.

Justinian is the fourth horn on the beast. He took out these three tribes. (Grolier Encyclopedia) Justinian's aim was the restoration of the earlier Roman Empire by reconquest of areas lost to the Germanic tribes. With the help of his general Belisarius, he regained North Africa from the Vandals (533-34) and, after a lengthy war (535-54), Italy from the Ostrogoths (see Goths). Justinian also acquired southeastern Spain. Repeated wars with the Sassanian Persians, however, usually ended with the Byzantines buying peace; and the Slavs occupied much of the Balkan Peninsula.

Quoted from “The Pictorial History of Italian People” (below)

Odoacer governed Italy nominally as representative of the Roman emperor in the East. In reality he acted as an independent ruler, and inefficiently. In 488, the Ostrogoths, authorized since around 450 by the government in Constantinople to settle on the right bank of the middle Danube, were led into Italy by their leader, King Theodoric II. Besieged in Ravenna, Odoacer surrendered and was assassinated in 493. The Herulians were never heard of again.

In 535 the Roman emperor in the East, the able Justinian, bent on reestablishing the unity of the Empire, sent an expeditionary force to Italy. In his eyes, as in the eyes of all native Italians, Italy was still very much an integral part of the Roman State. Surprised initially by the attack, the Goths soon rallied behind their leaders. While most Italians looked on, a ferocious war was fought for nearly two decades between the armies of the Gothic kings and those of the legitimate ruler, the emperor. Finally defeated, the Ostrogoths disappeared from the pages of history

Once again you see world history lines up with the scripture. All three of these Germanic tribes were defeated. As its states in the Book of Daniel these three were plucked up by the roots. After the Last Roman Cesar was defeat by these Germanic Tribes there were seven kings left. These kings all had a common purpose, and that was to restore the Ancient Roman Empire. We will name six of the kings the seven is yet to come. Now let’s return to the scripture.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

These seven kings are the remaining horns on the beast in Daniel 7:7. Each one of these kings had the blessing of the Pope. The first is Justinian, the quote below is from Reader’s Digest (THE LAST 2 MILLION YEARS PAGES 123,121.)

The golden age of Justinian, page 123.

One of the greatest of the Byzantine emperors came to the throne in 527. He was Justinian I, whose 38-year reign was distinguished by three major achievements. He reconquered much of the old Western Empire; he modernized Roman Law; and built hundreds of churches, including the magnificent Hagia Sophia, the church of the holy wisdom, in Constantinople. He devoted his long reign to trying recreate the old Roman Empire as it was when dominated the Mediterranean throughout the centuries before the barbarian invasion. He succeeded in driving the Vandals from Africa and the Ostrogoths from Italy.

Page 121. The magnificent Hagia Sophia, the church of the holy wisdom, was completed by Justinian in 537 and became the focus of religious life in Constantinople. Processions filed in an out of its doors on the frequent saints days, and most Byzantine emperors after Justinian were crowned in the church. More than 10,000 people worked on the building of Hagia Sophia; when it was finished, Justinian is said to have exclaimed, Solomon I have out done the.

The next was Charlemagne. This Quote is from “The Pictorial History Of Italian People” page 81.

Charlemagne himself remained ever after a major figure of Italian lore as did, with modified names, the English monk Alcuin (Charle-magne's trusted adviser for many years) and the gal-lant knight Roland. All Italians certainly took pride in the revived title of Roman emperor and in the great ceremony at which Pope Leo III crowned Charle-magne in the old Basilica of Saint Peter's in Rome, on Christmas Day of the year 800; There had been no emperor of the West since 476: now Italy seemed again to be the leading Western nation.

Quote from Funk and Wagnall’s online encyclopedia, under Holy Roman Empire.

On December 25, 800, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne emperor. This act established both a precedent and a political structure that were destined to figure decisively in the affairs of central Europe. The precedent established the papal claim to the right to select, crown, and even depose emperors that was asserted, at least in theory, for nearly 700 years. In its primary stage, the resurrected Western Empire endured as an effective political entity for less than 25 years after the death of Charlemagne in 814. The reign of his son and successor, Louis I, was marked by feudal and fratricidal strife that climaxed in 843 in partition of the empire. For an account of the growth, vicissitudes, and final dissolution of the Frankish realm, see FRANCE.


The third was Otto the great. Quote from Funk and Wagnall’s online encyclopedia, under Holy Roman Empire.

Despite the dissension within the newly created Western Empire, the popes maintained the imperial organization and the imperial title, mainly within the Carolingian dynasty, for most of the 9th century. The emperors exercised little authority beyond the confines of their dominions, however. After the reign (905-24) of Berengar I of Friuli (850?- 924), also styled as king of Italy or ruler of Lombardy, who was crowned emperor by Pope John X, the imperial throne remained vacant for nearly four decades. The East Frankish kingdom, or Germany, capably led by Henry I and Otto I, emerged as the strongest power in Europe during this period. Besides being a capable and ambitious sovereign, Otto I was an ardent friend of the Roman Catholic church, as revealed by his appointment of clerics to high office, by his missionary activities east of the Elbe River, and finally by his military campaigns, at the behest of Pope John XII, against Berengar II (900?-66), king of Italy. In 962, in recognition of Otto's services, John XII awarded him the imperial crown and title.

The 4th Charles V Quoted from Grolier Encyclopedia.

Charles V, Holy Roman emperor (1519-56) and Ñas Charles IÑking of Spain (1516-56), dominated the politics of Europe for 40 years. Charles was born in Ghent, in present-day Belgium, on Feb. 24, 1500, the eldest son of the Habsburg Philip the Handsome (later Philip I) and Joan the Mad of Castile. From his father, who died in 1506, he inherited the Netherlands and Joan the Mad of Castile. From his father, who died in 1506, he inherited the Netherlands (including most of the modern Netherlands and Belgium) and Franche Comt? (a French-speaking province that bordered eastern France but belonged to the Holy Roman Empire). After the death (1516) of his maternal grandfather, Ferdinand II of Aragon, Charles became ruler of the kingdoms of Spain and the Spanish dependencies in ItalyÑthe kingdoms of Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia. The Habsburg possessions of Austria and several smaller south German lordships came to him on the death (1519) of his paternal grandfather, Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I, as did hereditary claims to the crowns of Hungary and Bohemia. The latter were made good by his younger brother Ferdinand (later Emperor Ferdinand I) in 1526, after the last independent king of Hungary, Louis II, was killed by the Turks in the Battle of Moh‡cs. Meanwhile, in 1519, Charles had been elected German king and Holy Roman emperor in succession to his grandfather Maximilian.


The 5th was Napoleon Bonaparte, Quoted from Grolier Encyclopedia


With peace restored, Bonaparte extended French influence into Holland (the Batavian Republic), Switzerland (the Helvetic Republic), and Savoy-Piedmont, which was annexed to France; he played the major role in the Imperial Recess (1803), by which the free cities and minor states of the Holy Roman Empire were consolidated; and he attempted to extend the French colonial empire, principally by recovering Haiti (see Louisiana Purchase). As a result of these policies and his refusal to grant trade concessions to Britain, war was renewed in 1803. In the wake of these events, which revived royalist hostility, the Senate petitioned Bonaparte to establish a hereditary dynasty. On Dec. 2, 1804, therefore, Napoleon crowned himself emperor in a ceremony presided over by Pope Pius VII. Napoleon created a titled court that included many of his statesmen and generals as well as ex-royalists. Believing that family ties were more durable than treaties, in the next few years he placed members of his family on the thrones of several satellite states Naples, Holland, Westphalia, and SpainÑand married his relatives to some of the most distinguished families in Europe.


The 6th was Benito Mussolini Quoted from Grolier Encyclopedia.

On Mar. 23, 1919, Mussolini and other war veterans founded in Milan a revolutionary, nationalistic group called the Fasci di Combattimento, named for the ancient Roman symbol of power, the fasces. His Fascist movement developed into a powerful "radicalism of the right," gaining the support of many landowners in the lower Po valley, industrialists, and army officers.

Fascist black shirt squads carried on local civil war against Socialists, Communists, Catholics, and Liberals. fas'-eez : In ancient Rome, fasces were rods of elm or birch tied together with leather thongs around an ax with projecting blade, used as a symbol of authority. They were carried by lictors (guards) walking in advance of public officials including praetors, consuls, proconsuls, victorious generals, dictators, and emperors. The Italian Fascist party adopted the fasces as its emblem and took its name from them.

Quote from Reader Digest “THE LAST 2 MILLION YEARS PAGE 409.

With its uniform of black shirts and slogan, no discussion only obedience, the fascist party came to power. Mussolini ordered his followers to march on Rome in 1922; the king gave way before this show of force and called on Mussolini to form a government. Mussolini gradually transformed Italy into a dictatorship, basing his policies on the idea of corporative state. Under his rule, the Fascist attempted to control every major aspect of Italian life. He took the title of Il Duce (the leader) and suppressed parliament, retaining the monarchy as a figure-head. The Duce had grandiose ambition of reviving the glories of Ancient Rome and making the Italians once again a conquering, militaristic people. These ambition, strengthen by the memory of humiliating defeat the Italians had suffered at Adowa in Ethiopia in 1896, led him to attack and conquer Ethiopia in 1935-6.

As you have seen above each one of these Leaders tried to restore the Ancient Roman Empire and failed. Notice also how the Papacy played a major role in each of these leaders reign. Prophecy cannot be broken, keep your eye on Europe the 7th king will show himself soon.

We will now return to the scripture. Below in the Book Revelation we will see the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters is the Roman Catholic Church. The waters are millions of people that follow this bad doctrine put forth by this church. The city where the harlot sits is Vatican City. Documented history will show us the exact location of this city, so you will have no doubt in your mind were this city is.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Is this a literal wine? No. The Lord is giving you a physical side to understand a spiritual side. Let’s let the scripture explain this for us. Take a look at these verses in the Book of Isaiah.

Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

If they are not drunk with wine, what are they drunk from? Pay close attention to Isaiah.

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

Notice it said the Lord has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. Why has he done this? Here is the answer.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

This is why the Lord has done this. This people can care less about what the Lord says. They go about with their own doctrine. The Book clearly states the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, these people teach don’t fear Him. Fear means fear, and everyone on the planet will know what fear is all about when they see the sky roll back like a scroll. What is this doctrine called? Where did these people get it? Take a look at these verses in the Book of Revelations.

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

What church holds fast the name of the Lord? Does not the Roman Catholic Church? This church is steal casting a stumbling block before the children of Israel. This church possesses the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which the Lord hates. What is some of this doctrine?

1. The Law is no more

2. You are saved already

3. Babbling is speaking in tongues

4. You are born again already

5. You will be Raptured off the earth

6. The Trinity

7. Jesus loves everyone

8. You can eat what ever you want just pray over it

9. Female preachers

10. Confess your sins to a man in a box

11. Christmas

12. Easter

13. Good Friday

14. Sunrise service

15. Sunday is the Lord’s

16. Lent

17. Ash Wednesday

18. You don’t have to read the old testament, etc…

This is some of the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, notice also above in revelation it said that Satan’s seat was there. Let’s go a little further In Revelation 17 and see if we can locate his seat.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Notice how the woman is sitting on the beast. If you sit on a horse, who is doing the guiding you or the horse? You are. The same thing is being done here, the woman is riding the beast and controlling it. Notice something else, the beast has seven heads and ten horns. Who is this beast? Let’s find out.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Satan doesn’t look like this, he is a cherub angel (Ezk. 1). This simply shows who this beats is ran by. In the book Of Daniel the Gentiles are call the children of the prince (Satan), the Gentiles headed up by the Roman General Titus are the ones who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Knowing now that Satan runs the Gentile dynasty let’s find out where he sits. Back to Revelation 17.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Let’s see if we can find out what city sits on seven mountains. This Quote is from the Pictorial History of Italian People page 31.

Romans were now confident in their own strength. When, after over thirty years of nearly continual fighting, this round of wars ended, the small independent township centered on the seven hills had become a state embracing most of what is today's Latium and parts of Umbria.

Quote from Grolier Encyclopedia below.

The Seven Hills of Rome are the hills on which the ancient city was built. Of volcanic origin and situated on the east bank of the Tiber River, they consist of the Palatine, which lies at approximately the center of the hills, the Capitoline in the northwest, and the Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, and Aventine in the southwest. According to tradition, Romulus, the city's legendary founder, established the original settlement on the Palatine Hill, which, during the Roman Empire, was the site of the emperors' palaces. The other hills were incorporated as parts of Rome by a succession of early kings. The Servian Wall, which surrounded the seven hills, was built in the 4th century ©; parts of it still survive.

Next, will deal with those Ten Horn which are Ten King
 
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If you can show us a 7 year stay in heaven within the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, we would all like to see it.

This is not necessary. A Pre-Tribulation Rapture does not required a specific 7 year stay in Heaven at all. For all we know it could be 10, 15, or 20 years before the Second Coming of Christ. All it requires is that "the fulness of the Gentiles" is completed.

Dispensational Theology claims the Gospel Paul taught is different from the Gospel taught by Christ and the other Apostles, yet in Galatians chapter 1 Paul says any man who preaches another Gospel is to be accursed.
You may be referring to Hyper-Dispensationalism (a false teaching). But here is Scofield's comment in his notes to the introduction of Romans, which shows that (a) either you really don't know what Dispensationlism teaches or (b) you prefer to propagate false propaganda:

THEME: The theme of Romans is "the Gospel of God" ( Romans 1:1 ), the very widest possible designation of the whole body of redemption truth, for it is He with whom is "no respect of persons"; and who is not "the God of the Jews only," but "of the Gentiles also" ; Romans 2:11 ; 3:29 . Accordingly, "all the world" is found guilty Romans 3:19, and a redemption is revealed as wide as the need, upon the alone condition of faith. Not only does Romans embody in the fullest way the doctrines of grace in relation to salvation, but in three remarkable chapters (9-11.) the great promises to Israel are reconciled with the promises concerning the Gentiles, and the fulfilment of the former shown to await the completion of the church and coming of the Deliverer out of Zion Romans 11:25-27 . The key-phrase is "the righteousness of God" ; Romans 1:17 ; Romans 3:21 Romans 3:22 .

They teach that all of the promises to the Jews have not been fulfilled, but Paul states at Galatians 3:16 that the promises were made only to Christ.
What Paul teaches in Galatians and what God has promised in the Abrahamic Covenant are complementary to each other. That the promises to the Jews have NOT been fulfilled is clear from many NT passages, but we will take just one and prove that the kingdom has NOT been restored to Israel, as even the apostles expected (Acts 1:6-9):

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

The apostles knew the OT promises of God to restore and redeem the kingdom of Israel. Clearly that was postponed, but the Lord did not respond with "You are totally mistaken. There will be no such restoration. The Church will replace the kingdom of Israel".

They claim God is going to revert to the Old Sinai covenant for 7 years before the return of Christ, with Moses as the mediator instead of Christ. However, Paul says in Galatians chapter 4 that we are to cast out the Sinai covenant.
Another false allegation -- pure propaganda. Prove it from Scofield's notes. Here's what Scofield says in his introduction to Hebrews, which clearly refutes your false allegation:
THEME: The doctrinal passages reveal the purpose of the book. It was written with a twofold intent:
  1. To confirm Jewish Christians by showing that Judaism had come to an end through the fulfilment by Christ of the whole purpose of the law; and
  2. The hortatory passages show that the writer had in view the danger ever present to Jewish professed believers of either lapsing back into Judaism, or of pausing short of true faith in Jesus Christ. It is clear from the Acts that even the strongest of the believers in Palestine were held to a strange mingling of Judaism and Christianity (e.g. Acts 21:18-24 and that snare would be especially apt to entangle professed Christians amongst the Jews of the dispersion.

The only way a person can now be saved is through the New Blood Covenant of Christ predicted in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28, and fulfilled at John 19:30, and Hebrews 8:6-13.
Once again, by suggesting that Scofield teaches something else, you have simply slandered a good Christian teacher. Here is what Scofield says in his notes on Romans 3:25:
propitiation
Lit. a propitiatory sacrifice, through faith by his blood; (Greek - iJlasthvrion , "place of propitiation)." The word occurs, 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 as the trans. of hilasmos, "that which propitiates," "a propitiatory sacrifice." Hilasterion is used by the Septuagint, and Hebrews 9:5 for "mercy-seat." The mercy-seat was sprinkled with atoning blood in the day of atonement Leviticus 16:14 in token that the righteous sentence of the law had been (typically) carried out, so that what must else have been a judgment-seat could righteously be a mercy-seat ; Hebrews 9:11-15 ; 4:14-16, a place of communion Exodus 25:21 Exodus 25:22 .


In fulfilment of the type, Christ is Himself the hilasmos, "that which propitiates," and the hilasterion, "the place of propitiation" --the mercy-seat sprinkled with His own blood-- the token that in our stead He so honoured the law by enduring its righteous sentence that God, who ever foresaw the cross, is vindicated in having "passed over" sins from Adam to Moses Romans 5:13 and the sins of believers under the old covenant (See Scofield "Exodus 29:33") and just in justifying sinners under the covenant. There is no thought in propitiation of placating a vengeful God, but of doing right by His holy law and so making it possible for Him righteously to show mercy.

So in essence, BABerean2, you have no clue about either Scofield or Dispensationalism. You have been simply regurgitating propaganda.

 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Wrong ,when Peter asked if he can go with Jesus ...Jesus answered and said that where he will go (Heaven) no man can go there (alive).


Their souls have gone to Heaven (at a place prepared for them -born again /faithful believers-) after they died.Rather than going to Abraham bosom as it was the case for the -OT faithful believers- before Jesus' Resurrection, this is simple as that.

John 14King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
And here I was sure Peter said he was willing to die for Jesus.

In context, they were thinking that Jesus went to heaven, would prepare homes for them there, and come and get them and take them to the homes prepared. When Jesus said "where I am" did He mean where He would be after He ascended, (heaven) did He mean where HE would be when it was time for Him to go get His bride (heaven)? Or, perhaps He meant were He would be when the trumpet would sound. (In the air.) Millions of people today believe the second: that Jesus would take them to HIS home in heaven.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So in essence, BABerean2, you have no clue about either Scofield or Dispensationalism. You have been simply regurgitating propaganda.

Really...

I did not claim there is a 7 year stay in heaven during the trib. That is the teaching of classic Dispensational Theology. They claim it is the future 70th week of Daniel, which they claim is 7 years.

Here we find in Scofield's commentary on Revelation 14:6 a claim that there are four different forms of the Gospel.

If you think I am exaggerating, ask Lamad what he thinks.
He will tell you that Paul's Gospel was different from that preached by Christ and the other Apostles.
He has clearly stated this Dispensational opinion on this forum, during the last week or so.
Also, ask Lamad about going back to the Old Covenant during a future 7 year 70th week of Daniel.
He will give you the classic Dispensational view.

..........................................................................................
"Revelation 14:6




gospel

Gospel. This great theme may be summarized as follows:

I. In itself, the word Gospel means good news.



II. Four forms of the Gospel are to be distinguished:

(1) The Gospel of the kingdom. This is the good news that God purposes to set up on the earth, in fulfilment of the Davidic Covenant: (2Sa_7:16): a kingdom, political, spiritual, Israelitish, universal, over which God's Son, David's heir, shall be King, and which shall be, for one thousand years, the manifestation of the righteousness of God in human affairs.

(See Scofield) - (Mat_3:2).

Two preachings of this Gospel are mentioned, one past, beginning with the ministry of John the Baptist, continued by our Lord and His disciples, and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. The other is yet future (Mat_24:14) during the great tribulation, and immediately preceding the coming of the King in glory.

(2) The Gospel of the grace of God. This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead for our justification, and that, by Him, all that believe are justified from all things. This form of the Gospel is described in many ways. It is the Gospel...

"of God" (Rom_1:1) because it originates in His love;

"of Christ" (2Co_10:14) because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the alone Object of Gospel faith;

of the "grace of God" (Act_20:24) because it saves those whom the law curses;

of "the glory"; (1Ti_1:11); (2Co_4:4) because it concerns Him who is in the glory, and who is bringing the many sons to glory; (Heb_2:10);

of "our salvation" (Eph_1:13) because it is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"; (Rom_1:16);

of "the uncircumcision" (Gal_2:7) because it saves wholly apart from forms and ordinances of "peace" (Eph_6:15) because through Christ it makes peace between the sinner and God, and imparts inward peace.

(3) The everlasting Gospel. (Rev_14:6). This is to be preached to the earth-dwellers at the very end of the great tribulation and immediately preceding the judgment of the nations (Mat_15:31). It is neither the Gospel of the kingdom, nor of grace. Though its burden is judgment, not salvation, it is good news to Israel and to those who, during the tribulation, have been saved; (Rev_7:9-14); (Luk_21:28); (Psa_96:11-13); (Isa_35:4-10).

(4) That which Paul calls, "my Gospel" (Rom_2:16). This is the Gospel of the grace of God in its fullest development, but includes the revelation of the result of that Gospel in the outcalling of the church, her relationships, position, privileges, and responsibility. It is the distinctive truth of Ephesians and Colossians, but interpenetrates all of Paul's writings.



III. There is "another Gospel" (Gal_1:6); (2Co_11:4) "which is not another," but a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God, against which we are warned. It has many seductive forms, but the test is one -- it invariably denies the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect, and mingles with grace some kind of human merit. In Galatia it was law, in Colosse fanaticism (Col_2:18); etc. In any form, its teachers lie under the awful anathema of God.



angel

(See Scofield) - (Heb_1:4).
.............................................................................................
In Galatians chapter 1 Paul says there is only one Gospel.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

...................................................................


Scofield's notes claim the Holy Spirit is going to be removed from the earth below.
How are people going to be saved under the New Covenant if the Holy Spirit is removed?


................................................................................................
2 Thessalonians 2:3




for that day

The order of events is:

(1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time (2Th_2:7).

(2) the apostasy of the professing church (2Th_1:3); (Luk_18:8); (2Ti_3:1-8).

(3) the removal of that which restrains the mystery of lawlessness (2Th_2:6); (2Th_2:7). The restrainer is a person -- "he," and since a "mystery" always implies a supernatural element,

(See Scofield) - (Mat_13:11),

this Person can be none other than the Holy Spirit in the church, to be "taken out of the way"; (2Th_2:7); (1Th_4:14-17).

(4) the manifestation of the lawless one (2Th_2:8-10); (Dan_7:8); (Dan_9:27); (Mat_24:15); (Rev_13:2-10).

(5) the coming of Christ in glory and the destruction of the lawless one (2Th_2:8); (Rev_19:11-21).

(6) the day of Jehovah (2Th_2:9-12); (Isa_2:12).
....................................................................................

If you really want to find out what the classic Dispensationalists really believe, find a copy of "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost.
There you will find renewed animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple, done as a "memorial" to the sacrifice of Christ.
And you will also find Gentiles who gain salvation by becoming a part of modern Israel during the trib.

Darby and Scofield both claim the Book of Matthew is written to the Jews.
However, the Great Commission to the Church is given at the end of Matthew's Gospel.
Again, proving the doctrine to be false.

You know some of what is taught by classic Dispensational Theology.

However, you have apparently missed the big picture of the 2 Peoples/ 2 Purposes/ 2 Kingdoms/ 2 or more Gospels/ Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Last Trumpets/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more Resurrections of the Dead/ Daniel 9 "Gap"/ Replacing the One Seed of Galatians 3:16 with the many seeds/ Covenant Confusion/ Ignoring the Book of Hebrews/ doctrine.

.






 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
What exactly was "the gospel of the Kingdom" as preached by the disciples?

First, it was preaching that the kingdom of God is HERE NOW.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

...
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 3
2 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
...
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


Acts 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.


Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Acts 5
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
...
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Stephen
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
...
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Acts 10: Gospel of the KINGDOM preached to Gentiles
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

I find much of Paul's gospel in the above: Here is a sample of Paul's Gospel:

1 Cor 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


The center-point of Paul's gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But as you can see, the other disciples also preached His death and resurrection.

Paul's method of salvation for Gentiles" Believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and then confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.

Peter's method: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism seemed to be a big part of salvation for Jews. What did Paul say about it?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:

Therefore I find a difference in the typical gospel of the Kingdom and Paul's gospel. The Gospel of the Kingdom was to the JEWISH audience, while Paul's gospel was to the Gentile.

Both taught the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Both taught the baptism with the Holy Spirit after salvation.

Nowhere in the gospels or the book of Acts do we read about Jesus' blood removing sins, except what Jesus Himself said at the last supper.

Paul's gospel was that Jesus TOOK OUR PLACE and TOOK OUR PUNISHMENT for sins upon Himself - in fact for the entire world. I can find no place Peter preached this in Acts or Jesus preaching it in the gospels. We must keep in mind, no one knew Paul's gospel until He began to preach it. While Jesus was preaching, and sending out others to preach the gospel of the Kingdom, NO ONE KNEW that Jesus was about to die for the sins of the world.

You won't find propitiation in Peter's Gospel: how Jesus APPEASED Father God by taking the punishment for sins upon Himself. You won't find reconciliation in the gospel of the Kingdom: how God reconciled the world to Himself - or made peace between Himself and the world.

There is NO DOUBT, Paul's gospel was DIFFERENT that the "gospel of the Kingdom." In short, Scofield was RIGHT ON.

<Staff Edit>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is NO DOUBT, Paul's gospel was DIFFERENT that the "gospel of the Kingdom." In short, Scofield was RIGHT ON.

<Staff Edit>

<Staff Edit>

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

<Staff Edit>
.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
<Staff Edit>

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Based on Lamad's interpretation, the Apostle Paul has just said Peter and the other Apostles are accursed for preaching another Gospel.
No! Their gospel was for the JEWS!


<Staff Edit>
.
<Staff Edit>
HIS gospel was for the church age. NO OTHER GOSPEL ALLOWED during the church age. All living during the church age will be judged by Paul's gospel.

After the pretrib rapture, Paul's gospel is FINISHED. Read Rev. 14 - the messages of the angels for the Gospel then.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
<Staff Edit>
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Jn 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Short Timer

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
815
35
81
✟8,677.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

You quite obviously don't know what all happen to the world, and the people on it, before it gets to the second coming.

Only a 144000 are sealed, all Jews, and the locust torture everyone else, with them praying to die and can't,
Do you have an explanation of why the "Body of Christ" would be tortured like that???

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

God said his doctrine would drop like the rain, and Jesus said we had to drink of the water he gave,

<Staff Edit>

Mt 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

<Staff Edit>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.