praying for the dead

Albion said:

The quick answer is "yes." We can ask God for just about anything. However, that doesn't mean that such prayers...have any effect

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The Scriptures say that God hears our prayers before we make them, so he hears our prayers before people die. So if you believe that prayers are effectual for people before they die but not after, for some reason, then they could still be effective for people who have died before they died.

Albion said:

We can ask God for just about anything. However, that doesn't mean that such prayers are necessary or have any effect, and they certainly will not get anyone saved or freed from "Purgatory."

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I disagree on this point. Not because I think, Oh, Albion, you are soooo wrong about this issue, but because, to me, it is a mystery as to how our prayers may affect others who've passed beyond the veil.

I think it's possible for prayers to get a soul "freed" any state in which it may be mired--but that freedom can only come about from a soul being aware of the prayers, meditating on them and seeing their value (i.e., growing/evolving as a result of recognizing the higher truth of them). Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else, but it does to me.

Soma Seer said:

I disagree on this point. Not because I think, Oh, Albion, you are soooo wrong about this issue, but because, to me, it is a mystery as to how our prayers may affect others who've passed beyond the veil.

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I sympathize with the one part of your comment, which is that we are free to ask whatever we want of God, even if it's illogical or we know it can't happen. We can always ask and pray. But to think that our prayers can reverse the eternal destiny of someone who has died--get God to change his Heaven vs Hell judgment in the case of that person....well, it's not Scriptural and, to me, it doesn't make sense. The whole of what we believe about Salvation is called into question by this apparently innocent desire to help.

I think it's possible for prayers to get a soul "freed" any state in which it may be mired--but that freedom can only come about from a soul being aware of the prayers, meditating on them and seeing their value (i.e., growing/evolving as a result of recognizing the higher truth of them). Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else, but it does to me.

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So, let's be sure of what you're saying. A person who has entered into the afterlife and been judged, can have a second chance--after death--at turning his fate around?

When is one judged?

Kylissa said:

When is one judged?

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There's an immediate judgment; later comes the final judgment.

Kylissa said:

When is one judged?

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This is a interesting and good question coming from an solid Orthodox Christian. I am gonna stick around and learn something from this.

Athanasias said:

This is a interesting and good question coming from an solid Orthodox Christian. I am gonna stick around and learn something from this.

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That makes two of us.

Athanasias said:

This is a interesting and good question coming from an solid Orthodox Christian. I am gonna stick around and learn something from this.

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Thank you, but ... I'm not presuming to "teach" anything ... I am only interested to hear how this fits in.

Albion said:

There's an immediate judgment; later comes the final judgment.

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So ... (and forgive me everyone, I'm NOT speaking for the Orthodox Church or implying anything like that, because as far as I'm aware we are not dogmatic certain points of this issue)

So at what point is one's eternal destiny fixed and unchangeable?

Kylissa said:

So at what point is one's eternal destiny fixed and unchangeable?

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Immediate judgment.

So where does the soul of a condemned person reside between the immediate judgement and the final judgement?

Kylissa said:

Thank you, but ... I'm not presuming to "teach" anything ... I am only interested to hear how this fits in.




So ... (and forgive me everyone, I'm NOT speaking for the Orthodox Church or implying anything like that, because as far as I'm aware we are not dogmatic certain points of this issue)

So at what point is one's eternal destiny fixed and unchangeable?

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Out of curiosity if I might ask how do you feel about Fr. Seraphim Rose's book on this subject? It seemed to me compelling in terms of patristic support, uncontroversial in an EO-OO sense, and at the same time moderately unsettling on a purely personal level, which is perhsps not a bad thing at all.

Wgw said:

Out of curiosity if I might ask how do you feel about Fr. Seraphim Rose's book on this subject? It seemed to me compelling in terms of patristic support, uncontroversial in an EO-OO sense, and at the same time moderately unsettling on a purely personal level, which is perhsps not a bad thing at all.

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To be honest, I have not read it.

And as a point of further honesty, I have found "beginnings and endings" to be among the more controversial topics (or at least to lie alongside some controversial doctrines) and partially for this reason I have concentrated my reading on other topics. (The main reason I haven't read that much on it is that I find it doesn't really change how I am to live my life, whether toll houses are strictly a metaphorical teaching or a literal one, for example.) With that in mind, it seems (to me) unprofitable to embroil myself in topics that tend to divide us, which cannot really be definitively answered, and which don't affect how we are to live.

But for some, it may be very important to look into these. We are in different places on slightly different paths. So I don't mean this as criticism of anyone else who may focus on such matters.

I am interested to read it someday, and it has been recommended to me by several people whose opinion I deeply respect. I will say that when I was a catechumen, my priest discouraged me from reading Fr. Seraphim Rose, partially because he does apparently teach some topics that have some degree of controversy, but also because he was concerned that some converts develop a devotion to Fr. Seraphim that he felt was a little too overdone. I'm not the sort to get "star-struck" ... in my secular life I met major movie stars and I tend not to be easily impressed, lol. But I waited to read much of Fr. Seraphim out of respect for my priest's instructions, and he's since lifted any restrictions. So in a way it's on my "list" but not near the top right now. I have a number of texts I need to focus on first.


I do find your analysis very compelling though.

I come from one of the traditions that is most dead-set against prayers for the dead. My impression is that this came out of abuses in the 16th Cent, and that we’re seeing a bit of an overreaction.

I don’t think we need specific Scriptural support for every topic about which we might pray. It seems to me that Scripture suggests that we should bring all of our concerns before God. When a friend or relative has died, it’s natural to be concerned about what happens to them. That should not be the one concern that we’re not allowed to bring to God.

However I guess I’d go with my tradition in formal settings. After a death we ask the congregation to pray for the family of the person who has died. The church service we have after a death is a celebration of the person’s life, and of the Resurrection. It shouldn’t be framed primarily as the Church trying to get the person into heaven.

hedrick said:

I come from one of the traditions that is most dead-set against prayers for the dead. My impression is that this came out of abuses in the 16th Cent, and that we’re seeing a bit of an overreaction.

I don’t think we need specific Scriptural support for every topic about which we might pray. It seems to me that Scripture suggests that we should bring all of our concerns before God. When a friend or relative has died, it’s natural to be concerned about what happens to them. That should not be the one concern that we’re not allowed to bring to God.

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I like this very much.

However I guess I’d go with my tradition in formal settings. After a death we ask the congregation to pray for the family of the person who has died. The church service we have after a death is a celebration of the person’s life, and of the Resurrection. It shouldn’t be framed primarily as the Church trying to get the person into heaven.

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I'm not sure it has come out in this thread (sorry no time to backtrack and read all) but that's an interesting point.

Our prayers are very much that God will forgive the sins of those who have died, and grant them a place of rest among the saints (these are in the books in the context of one who was part of the worshipping Body of Christ) - but yet - on the other hand, we also pray for mercy for any and all who may have died (or be living) and yet we don't have expectations of what form that mercy will take.

So I'm not really sure (though it could be said) that our Church is "trying to get the person into heaven". Something in me reacts against it being stated that way. Thank you - that means it's worth asking more questions, perhaps.

(And I know you weren't directly addressing me or the Orthodox Church, but it was your post that made me think of that, so I wanted to thank you.)

I wouldn’t object to having prayers “for mercy for any and all who may have died (or be living) and yet we don't have expectations of what form that mercy will take” in a service. It’s a question of focus and emphasis.

hedrick said:

I wouldn’t object to having prayers “for mercy for any and all who may have died (or be living) and yet we don't have expectations of what form that mercy will take” in a service. It’s a question of focus and emphasis.

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I expected we would agree there.

Though ... those are more along the lines of private prayers, which can be offered for anyone.

The actual service within the Church itself - can only take place for those who belong to the Church, and in some sense are in good standing. I'm not sure of ALL the details. I know for instance that suicide can be a problem, since one cannot have repented of it. (However, this is not an absolute - for example, a suicide victim can have a Church funeral if there is reason to believe they were mentally in a state that made them not clearly responsible for their choices ... And suicide is almost an indication of this.) The intention is basically to reserve a Church funeral for those who have not absolutely rejected the Church. Going back to the understanding that it's not a "choice of denomination" as modern Protestants face, but stems from a question historically of "do you consider yourself a part of Christ's Church or not?"

So I'm not sure that our funeral service is meant to "change God's mind" or "get someone into heaven" the way it might seem. We pray for "the servant of God" which is a title bestowed at Baptism and indicates entry into the Church. Though a Church funeral service can also be given to a catechumen who dies, on the basis of their intention and desire to join the Church, as a result of their faith.

Essentially, it seems we are praying for merciful judgment (who knows what unconfessed sins a person may have?) for Christians who die. But I'd have to verify this.

Again thank you. It has helped me consider this more carefully. I may still have a question or two to ask my priest, but it falls into place better.

Kylissa said:

I expected we would agree there.

Though ... those are more along the lines of private prayers, which can be offered for anyone

The actual service within the Church itself - can only take place for those who belong to the Church, and in some sense are in good standing. I'm not sure of ALL the details. I know for instance that suicide can be a problem, since one cannot have repented of it. (However, this is not an absolute - for example, a suicide victim can have a Church funeral if there is reason to believe they were mentally in a state that made them not clearly responsible for their choices ... And suicide is almost an indication of this.) The intention is basically to reserve a Church funeral for those who have not absolutely rejected the Church. Going back to the understanding that it's not a "choice of denomination" as modern Protestants face, but stems from a question historically of "do you consider yourself a part of Christ's Church or not?"

So I'm not sure that our funeral service is meant to "change God's mind" or "get someone into heaven" the way it might seem. We pray for "the servant of God" which is a title bestowed at Baptism and indicates entry into the Church. Though a Church funeral service can also be given to a catechumen who dies, on the basis of their intention and desire to join the Church, as a result of their faith.

Essentially, it seems we are praying for merciful judgment (who knows what unconfessed sins a person may have?) for Christians who die. But I'd have to verify this.

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FWIW, this is essentially what happens during the Anglican worship service, i.e. during corporate worship, although the wording does include the idea that it's the "faithful" departed who are in mind, and there is nothing about any particular adjustment in their standing with God, no release from Purgatory or shortening of their suffering, or anything like that.

Albion said:

FWIW, this is essentially what happens during the Anglican worship service, i.e. during corporate worship, although the wording does include the idea that it's the "faithful" departed who are in mind, and there is nothing about any particular adjustment in their standing with God, no release from Purgatory or shortening of their suffering, or anything like that.

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Interesting.

We don't believe in purgatory, of course, and we don't presume to know God's judgement on a person.

For the faithful, we pray corporately that their sins be forgiven and they be given a place of rest among the saints. I've never heard it said that we cannot pray this for someone whose status we don't know about - but I do know those prayers were written for the faithful, and the service including these prayers in Church is restricted to the faithful. Priests are limited in what they can pray for those outside the Church. I think they may pray only the Trisagion, but I might be remembering this wrongly. (The Trisagion mostly praises God, asks for mercy, and includes the Lord's Prayer.)

We can pray for God's mercy on anyone. But I've been told that is without expectation of any particular outcome.

There are stories within the Church that speak of souls in torment and that it is momentarily relieved (a glance into another's face, something like the rich man prayed for Lazarus touching his tongue with water for a moment - that sort of momentary relief).

I think it is important to say that we don't restrict the ability of God to forgive sins and essentially "save" someone after death. But the final judgement has not occurred, so I'm not sure we can say this is changing one's status. But at any rate, we don't restrict God in this way.

Right. The thinking is not exactly the same between the two communions, and perhaps I should just have let the opportunity to comment pass me by, but since corporate prayer vs. private prayer had been mentioned, I thought I'd comment as I did. We do pray (according to the Book of Common Prayer's Rite for Holy Communion, i.e. the Divine Liturgy) for the faithful departed but not with any mention of any Purgatory-type situation. If the question is asked "What then do you say you are intending by such a prayer?" it is that the faithful departed continue to grow in grace--which kind of reminds me of the way the Orthodox think about the afterlife. And of course the departed are referred to as models for us.

Albion said:

Right. The thinking is not exactly the same between the two communions, and perhaps I should just have let the opportunity to comment pass me by, but since corporate prayer vs. private prayer had been mentioned, I thought I'd comment as I did. We do pray (according to the Book of Common Prayer's Rite for Holy Communion, i.e. the Divine Liturgy) for the faithful departed but not with any mention of any Purgatory-type situation. If the question is asked "What then do you say you are intending by such a prayer?" it is that the faithful departed continue to grow in grace--which kind of reminds me of the way the Orthodox think about the afterlife. And of course the departed are referred to as models for us.

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I'm glad you mentioned it, just as I'm glad Hedrick brought to mind for me the difference between corporate and private prayer.

It's always good to understand what someone else actually means (sometimes I see a huge gap of understanding of this between very different churches, and it often devolves into outright accusation and ill will), and it is likewise good to appreciate what we have in common, IMO.