Futurist Only Offended with Israel: The scandal of particularity

Numenorian · Nov 25, 2015

I'd like to begin a discussion about how Israel, even in her unbelieving condtion, is Divinely intended to sift both the nations and the church, the latter in respect to the clarity of its apprehension of the essentials of the gospel - righteousness, faith, the sovereignty of God, and the meaning of grace.

dfw69 · Nov 26, 2015

Numenorian said:
I'd like to begin a discussion about how Israel, even in her unbelieving condtion, is Divinely intended to sift both the nations and the church, the latter in respect to the clarity of its apprehension of the essentials of the gospel - righteousness, faith, the sovereignty of God, and the meaning of grace.

Don't understand you...

Numenorian · Nov 26, 2015

dfw69 said:
Don't understand you...

What I mean is that God's election of Israel (which has not been annulled because they are currently in unbelief as a nation - many individuals are coming to the faith) is going to sift the church's understanding of the gospel.

Many suppose, even in the church, that Israel has forfeited any "right" to the land because of its abusive ways, as if anyone has a "right" to anything but hell from the Lord. That we discuss Israel's performance in this way raises a serious question: is this how we understand our own salvation, that we somehow merited it. How many secretly operate this way, no one but God knows, but out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I expect Israel to wax worse and worse. Recently, I read in the Jerusalem Post about a right-wing rabbi who was advocating razing the Gaza Strip, exterminating everyone in order to remove this perpetual threat to Israeli civilians. And why not? "There is none righteous, no, not one."

Did you know that Judaism does not hold to the doctrine of total depravity? Jews are taught that we have a higher and lower potentials and have to learn to rule the lower. It is this rejection of the biblical perspective of the human condition that they are going to have to learn by hard experience. Self-righteousness dies hard.

“"For the LORD will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone, And there is none remaining, bond or free.” ‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:36‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The challenge for the church will be to NOT jump on the world's bandwagon of self-righteous condemnation of Israel's sinful behaviour. Of all people on earth, Christians should understand why people do what they do. If we do jump on, it will testify to the fact that we really never owned God's evaluation of our natures.
And this refusal has serious implications for salvation: what then are we saved from? Do we really need a Saviour?

When Israel is suddenly thrust out into the wilderness of the nations, God would have us receive them when no one else will, and most importantly, be able to give them understanding and hope when it seems that all hope is gone.

dfw69 · Nov 26, 2015

Numenorian said:
What I mean is that God's election of Israel (which has not been annulled because they are currently in unbelief as a nation - many individuals are coming to the faith) is going to sift the church's understanding of the gospel.

im a simple man and having trouble seeing your thought so bare with me

jews are coming to the faith sifting the gospel? its may be hear say ....how can one tell?...many say they are jews because they have converted to judaism and then believe the idea of the messiah is jesus...and those in the christian faith believe the law is part of the gospel....and reject that jesus has obtained the righteousness of the law for us....so technically not come to the faith yet....unless they truly believe jesus is our righteousness apart from the law...

Many suppose, even in the church, that Israel has forfeited any "right" to the land because of its abusive ways, as if anyone has a "right" to anything but hell from the Lord. That we discuss Israel's performance in this way raises a serious question: is this how we understand our own salvation, that we somehow merited it. How many secretly operate this way, no one but God knows, but out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

its a gift ...those that god calls israel or worthy to be called israel will recieve the promise land

I expect Israel to wax worse and worse. Recently, I read in the Jerusalem Post about a right-wing rabbi who was advocating razing the Gaza Strip, exterminating everyone in order to remove this perpetual threat to Israeli civilians. And why not? "There is none righteous, no, not one."

Thats terrible

Did you know that Judaism does not hold to the doctrine of total depravity? Jews are taught that we have a higher and lower potentials and have to learn to rule the lower. It is this rejection of the biblical perspective of the human condition that they are going to have to learn by hard experience. Self-righteousness dies hard.

Yes

“"For the LORD will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone, And there is none remaining, bond or free.” ‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:36‬ ‭NASB‬‬

....by great tribulation coming from the final antichrist and the idol in the temple

The challenge for the church will be to NOT jump on the world's bandwagon of self-righteous condemnation of Israel's sinful behaviour. Of all people on earth, Christians should understand why people do what they do. If we do jump on, it will testify to the fact that we really never owned God's evaluation of our natures.
And this refusal has serious implications for salvation: what then are we saved from? Do we really need a Saviour?

When Israel is suddenly thrust out into the wilderness of the nations, God would have us receive them when no one else will, and most importantly, be able to give them understanding and hope when it seems that all hope is gone.

yes love the jews and condemn them not

dfw69 · Nov 26, 2015

Numenorian said:
I'd like to begin a discussion about how Israel, even in her unbelieving condtion, is Divinely intended to sift both the nations and the church, the latter in respect to the clarity of its apprehension of the essentials of the gospel - righteousness, faith, the sovereignty of God, and the meaning of grace.

seems you are placing israel above the church?....yet the church is supposed to be made up of jews and gentiles one in faith in the gospel which provides the righteousness of god by gift

Numenorian · Nov 27, 2015

dfw69 said:
seems you are placing israel above the church?....yet the church is supposed to be made up of jews and gentiles one in faith in the gospel which provides the righteousness of god by gift

I like your attitude, man. You say of yourself "I'm a simple man" and that's exactly the kind of person God is pleased to show His secrets to.

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭

Now to answer your question above. Pardon my long-winded answers. Often, I feel the need to give context before getting to the main point.

So...in the context of the whole Bible, how is headship or leadership to be expressed? Of course, Jesus is the ultimate expression of servant leadership. Paul's great statement about the mind of Christ in Philippians 2 cuts to the heart of the matter: the hallmark of leadership in any context is to be the humility of Jesus. I love this picture that David gave us by the Spirit in his last words:

“Now these are the last words of David. David the son of Jesse declares,
The man who was raised on high declares, The anointed of the God of Jacob,
And the sweet psalmist of Israel, "The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.
"The God of Israel said,
The Rock of Israel spoke to me,
'He who rules over men righteously,
Who rules in the fear of God,
Is as the light of the morning when the sun rises,
A morning without clouds,
When the tender grass springs out of the earth, Through sunshine after rain.'”
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭23:1-4‬

Now here is what Israel is going to be for the nations in after Jesus reveals Himself to them:

“Then the remnant of Jacob
Will be among many peoples
Like dew from the LORD,
Like showers on vegetation
Which do not wait for man
Or delay for the sons of men.”
‭‭Micah‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭

Why?
“"But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong And tell no lies, Nor will a deceitful tongue Be found in their mouths; For they will feed and lie down With no one to make them tremble."”
‭‭Zephaniah‬ ‭3:12-13‬

Now to the issue of Israel and the church. God called Israel to be a holy nation of kings and priests, His possession among the nations. Paul says, "the gifts and he calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29). Of course, being grafted in to the same tree and made participants of the commonwealth of Israel, the church shares that calling. But the church is not a national entity.

Essentially, when Israel meets the Lord and the nation is born in a day (Isaiah 66:8, Zech. 3:9), they will finally be ready to fulfill their priestly calling, bringing nations to the Lord's feet. When the Spirit is poured out from on high (Isa. 32:15), they will no more be self-righteous Sauls, but a NATION OF APOSTLE PAULS, washing the feet of the nations with the gospel. There was no hint of Jewish superiority expressed by Paul.

This is how they will then exhibit their headship in the nations. Can you say "Amen" to that?

dfw69 · Nov 27, 2015

Numenorian said:
I like your attitude, man. You say of yourself "I'm a simple man" and that's exactly the kind of person God is pleased to show His secrets to.

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭

Now to answer your question above. Pardon my long-winded answers. Often, I feel the need to give context before getting to the main point.

So...in the context of the whole Bible, how is headship or leadership to be expressed? Of course, Jesus is the ultimate expression of servant leadership. Paul's great statement about the mind of Christ in Philippians 2 cuts to the heart of the matter: the hallmark of leadership in any context is to be the humility of Jesus. I love this picture that David gave us by the Spirit in his last words:

“Now these are the last words of David. David the son of Jesse declares,
The man who was raised on high declares, The anointed of the God of Jacob,
And the sweet psalmist of Israel, "The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.
"The God of Israel said,
The Rock of Israel spoke to me,
'He who rules over men righteously,
Who rules in the fear of God,
Is as the light of the morning when the sun rises,
A morning without clouds,
When the tender grass springs out of the earth, Through sunshine after rain.'”
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭23:1-4‬

Now here is what Israel is going to be for the nations in after Jesus reveals Himself to them:

“Then the remnant of Jacob
Will be among many peoples
Like dew from the LORD,
Like showers on vegetation
Which do not wait for man
Or delay for the sons of men.”
‭‭Micah‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭

Why?
“"But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong And tell no lies, Nor will a deceitful tongue Be found in their mouths; For they will feed and lie down With no one to make them tremble."”
‭‭Zephaniah‬ ‭3:12-13‬

Now to the issue of Israel and the church. God called Israel to be a holy nation of kings and priests, His possession among the nations. Paul says, "the gifts and he calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29). Of course, being grafted in to the same tree and made participants of the commonwealth of Israel, the church shares that calling. But the church is not a national entity.

Essentially, when Israel meets the Lord and the nation is born in a day (Isaiah 66:8, Zech. 3:9), they will finally be ready to fulfill their priestly calling, bringing nations to the Lord's feet. When the Spirit is poured out from on high (Isa. 32:15), they will no more be self-righteous Sauls, but a NATION OF APOSTLE PAULS, washing the feet of the nations with the gospel. There was no hint of Jewish superiority expressed by Paul.

This is how they will then exhibit their headship in the nations. Can you say "Amen" to that?

Yes I believe Israel will be used by God in the future when Jesus returns to help the nation's see the truth of the gospel that Christ is the way to salvation and the righteousness of the law is found in Faith in him and not in observing the old covenant...amen

Numenorian · Nov 27, 2015

dfw69 said:
Yes I believe Israel will be used by God in the future when Jesus returns to help the nation's see the truth of the gospel that Christ is the way to salvation and the righteousness of the law is found in Faith in him and not in observing the old covenant...amen

The Jews are known as the people under the Law, while Gentiles are the people without Law.
“For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭

I've heard a lot of carping about the Law over the years, especially in charismatic land, where I've been for a long time. And yet...he Gentiles were never under the Law. It is he Jews who are, and will remain until they come to Christ...

dfw69 · Nov 27, 2015

Numenorian said:
The Jews are known as the people under the Law, while Gentiles are the people without Law.
“For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭

I've heard a lot of carping about the Law over the years, especially in charismatic land, where I've been for a long time. And yet...he Gentiles were never under the Law. It is he Jews who are, and will remain until they come to Christ...

the law is law over all God's creation ....Jews were supposed to teach us that truth......they were God's light to the world....one cannot get into heaven unless sin be redeemed....we all are lost in sin and transgress God's laws and the whole world needed a savior not just the Jews who fell short of the law because none kept it ...no.one righteous

Just because I'm not under the old covenant does not mean I'm.Not a trasngressor of God's universal laws

Numenorian · Nov 27, 2015

dfw69 said:
the law is law over all God's creation ....Jews were supposed to teach us that truth......the were God's light to the world....one cannot get into heaven unless sin be redeemed....we all are lost in sin and transgress God's laws and the whole world needed a savior not just the Jews who fell short of the law because none kept it ...no.one righteous

I said it that way because the Jews are uniquely bound to the law of Moses, because on Sinai, they owned it. "All that the Lord has said, we will do." It was their covenant with their God. But you're right, the whole world needs a saviour. Yet, because Gentiles are not under the law, we don't have to keep Sabbath or circumcision. Neither do the Jews for that matter, but if they choose to, they're free, as long as they know where their righteousness comes from.

dfw69 · Nov 27, 2015

Numenorian said:
I said it that way because the Jews are uniquely bound to the law of Moses, because on Sinai, they owned it. "All that the Lord has said, we will do." It was their covenant with their God. But you're right, the whole world needs a saviour. Yet, because Gentiles are not under the law, we don't have to keep Sabbath or circumcision. Neither do the Jews for that matter, but if they choose to, they're free, as long as they know where their righteousness comes from.

I don't know if they should return to the law ...because of false prophets and false messiah who are sure to come....it's best to wait on.the Lord's I think and remain in the churches and the gospel

Returning to the law is very enticing these days

Numenorian · Nov 27, 2015

dfw69 said:
I don't know if they should return to the law ...because of false prophets and false messiah who are sure to come....it's best to wait on.the Lord's I think and remain in the churches and the gospel

Returning to the law is very enticing these days

Some Jews remain Torah observant (following the dietary laws, Shabbat, etc.), but if they are born again and clearly, absolutely know where their righteousness lies, yet they want to go to synagogue on Saturday while I prefer to go to the ballgame, I have no problem with that. But if a Jewish believer has a problem with another Jewish believer going to the ballgame on Saturday, then we have a problem.

dfw69 · Nov 28, 2015

Numenorian said:
Some Jews remain Torah observant (following the dietary laws, Shabbat, etc.), but if they are born again and clearly, absolutely know where their righteousness lies, yet they want to go to synagogue on Saturday while I prefer to go to the ballgame, I have no problem with that. But if a Jewish believer has a problem with another Jewish believer going to the ballgame on Saturday, then we have a problem.

I don't either ...as long as men do.those things required in.the new testament ....I mean many people say no to Jesus as messiah yet in Their hearts are good and judge not and condemns not but love sinners and treat others as brothers...should they not reap what they sow?...if they sow mercy and forgiveness shall they not received mercy and forgiveness though they say Jesus is not the messiah

..there is the danger. That the law can puff up cause one to be judgemental ...and this is probably true of all religions...hate leads to death

Plus I think Jesus wants to establish a new system yet to come...similar to the old ways with the messianic temple of ezek...So he is able to change things in due time

The greatest threat will be one coming held as the messiah by the churches a false Jesus ..a man to unite the church who will judge and condemn Jews for unbelief and causing divisions between Jews and gentiles

And vice versa....the Jews will hail a man to be messiah and his laws will judge and condemn sinners...causing divisions between Jews and gentiles

Islam also is a threat if a caliphate unites them to war against Israel and the nation's they believe to be Christian....they have been severely oppressed the past 50 years or so by the government's and wars causing many evils towards many innocent peaceful civilians to target a handful of bad guys....

God help us all...

Paul say the children of the bondwoman which is the old covenant shall not inherent the kingdom of God....but does not actually state why those who hold to the law are not allowed to enter in..it must have something to do with how they hold to the law...reaping being cast out ....because I cannot see just cause for one who holds to the law yet does no harm to others that he should ever be cast out...

There is the scriptures that says if you deny me I will deny him...but again to deny Jesus is to deny all that he stands for....mainly no harm towards others ...for all will reap what he sows in all religions of the world. ..it must be just and fair for all men...even those without Christ

But all men need to know that in Christ the promises are sure...no need to doubt...

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