Man is god in embryo

withwonderingawe said:

1, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Gen 1:1 ... Perhaps our Jewish friends here can explain better than I but the word create bara in Hebrew does not mean to create something from nothing. It means ‘to make fat’. It implies ‘to gather in’ as a man builds a ship, he gathers in the supplies he needs. Gen 1 is an opening announcement that God made the earth fat or enlarged it and here’s how he did it ... I love Richard R. Hopkins, he really goes though all the different verses and explains the original intent.

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Hi withwonderingawe, thank you for your replies to me. I'll start with this one first by saying that I can understand why you love Richard Hopkins' writing. Apart from his unwavering support of the LDS faith, he seems a captivating author (I read a little bit of his writing online), and is certainly a man who (no doubt due to the fact that he is a lawyer by profession) is able to create what appears to be a good/believable argument in support of his positions.

The thing is, to arrive at the position that what Mormonism teaches is true based upon history and upon the Holy Scriptures of the Christians and the Jews, he is forced to be exactly what LoAmmi graciously called all of what you posited of his above, "creative". That's the problem with using an endgame like, "Mormonism is true", as the *starting* point, because everything, no matter how absurd or clearly and provably untrue it is, has to be made to agree with it. And when history and/or the Scriptures cannot be "bent" to fit the "truth" of the endgame, the only out, in this particular case, is to then say that the translations of the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, and even of recorded history in some cases, have all been (intentionally OR unintentionally) corrupted. The basis of this is fraught with all of the problems that are commonly found when one uses the ends to justify the means (which are being used to arrive at those ends)

You are, of course, free to believe whatever you wish (you have free will ). And yes, there are a number of things that Jews, the RCC, the EOC, and Protestants do disagree upon, but when ALL of us have, for 1000's of years, believed the same thing in absolute harmony with one another, I would think that alone should carry considerable weight, even for you, a Mormon.*

*(That's basically all I meant to say, but I expanded/extended those thoughts a bit below, so if you'd like to read on, please do so )

I am blessed to live only a few miles away from Hebrew Union College. I've had friends who attended there and friends who have taught there. One of them, a conservative Rabbi, did his dissertation on the Gospel of John. I know, WEIRD, especially when you understand that this man is NOT a Christian or a Messianic Jew, he's a Jew who believes (among other things) that Messiah is yet to come. But I know of no one who knows more about the Gospel of John than he does. And when the book opens and says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", he will tell you w/o hesitation that what the Gospel is teaching is that, "Jesus Christ, the Word as He is called in v1, is God, who (v14) came to dwell among us in the flesh". "That is what the Gospel of John teaches", he will tell you, "without a doubt". Does he believe that Jesus is the Messiah? No! (but he will say that is St. John's undoubted meaning).

I also know of a Professor there who was both a Jew and an Atheist. He taught Comparative Semitics, but when he exegeted/interpreted the OT, he came to the same conclusions about it that his "believing" Jewish colleagues did (because the Scriptures teach what the Scriptures teach).

I say all this for this reason: To arrive at what Mormonism teaches, you must disagree with, not only the scholars who are 'believers' in Christendom and Judaism, you must also disagree with non-believing scholars and skeptics who have no vested interest in Christianity or Judaism OR Mormonism being true or untrue.

I assume you understand this too, but in case you don't, as a Christian, I don't believe that "bara" means creatio ex nihilo in Genesis 1:1 because a Jewish scholar named "Charlie" coined the phrase in, let's say, 1320 BC, and that no matter what the facts say, we believe it because "Charlie" said it. Rather, I believe it because history and the word of God bear that fact out, and because, after the filter of history, that's what the scholars, doctors, and theologians, Jewish, Catholic and Protestant still say it means.

But then along comes a group like the LDS, whose "truths" don't agree with what history and the word of God teach, so the facts are bent (or literally denied as "corrupt") whenever they disagree with the presupposition.

In closing this ridiculously long-winded "essay" (very sorry about that .. hopefully you stopped reading it halfway through ) I will say this, "you could be right", and the rest of us could end up being the ones who are believing a lie. But it seems to me that you need to consider whether or not you want to trust your eternal destiny to the endgame that "Mormonism is true, no matter what", and to the teachings of Mormon apologists (such as Richard R. Hopkins, Esquire) who press this apologetic, w/o carefully and dispassionately checking out the "facts" behind what they say for yourself.

Yours and His,
David

withwonderingawe said:

Yes we believe we have a Mother in Heaven. Gen 1: 26-27 should read; “And the Gods said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: …. So God created man in his own image, in the image of the Gods created he him; male and female created he them”

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Hi again withwonderingawe (this is my other promised reply to you ), I was told by another LDS CF member that was true, but that the concept of a "Heavenly Mother" was not "official" Mormon doctrine, at least not at this point in time. I also said that I can understand how such a belief could possibly arise considering what else you believe, that YHVH was, at one time in the past, a man himself, just like we are now. Christians and Jews do not believe that we were made in the image of God PHYSICALLY, since the Bible is clear that the Father is "Spirit" only.

I will also say that your rewording of Genesis 1:26 above would be (at the very least) considered heresy of the most extreme order by Jews, Muslims, and even by us Christians (who hold to the doctrine of the Trinity) based upon Deuteronomy 6:4 alone (the Bible is replete with similar testimony concerning Him however, as I am sure you are aware). You continue:

withwonderingawe said:

Israel worshiped a Mother Goddesses all the way down to Josiah when he took her symbol out of the Temple. She had over the years become an idol and we believe because of sin our knowledge of her was deliberately taken away.

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I assume you mean "Sophia" yes? You cannot possibly believe that God gave commanded or gave His permission for such a thing to occur. Israel sinned greatly throughout the years and was punished by God in numerous ways for their sinful behavior. If you have an example of God commanding the worship of a Sophia in the Holy Scriptures, please share it with us. She was certainly never mentioned in the Torah's very extensive instructions that described how the Temple should be built and how the worship of God was to be carried out.

As to her becoming an idol and, as a result, having our knowledge of her deliberately taken away, how can that possibly be true if Sophia is truly a Goddess? How can the worship of a true "God" ever become idolatry? Do you have any evidence of such a thing happening in the annals of Jewish history, or is this simply conjecture on the part of the LDS You continue:

withwonderingawe said:

Look how Mary the mother of Jesus is treated. On one hand she is deified and on the other her name is used as a curse word. Our Father protects our Mother from such usage.

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Uhh, while our friends in the RCC do go a little bit overboard with their treatment of Mary, I do not believe they will ever come to the point of calling her God and a fourth member of the Godhead. Also, I'm nearly 60 years old and I have never, not even once, heard the Blessed Virgin's name used as a "curse" word. Who does that Again, you continue:

withwonderingawe said:

Our Father and Mother are one in purpose, power and knowledge. For us there is really four members of the Godhead

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I will not comment on what you just said other than to confirm that such a teaching is conjecture on the part of Mormons and not a doctrinal teaching of Mormonism, right?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

(Blind Post)

I clicked this thread because it reminded me of this story I read online once, and checked the OP to see if it was about that story. I don't remember if there was a point to the story outside of entertainment, but it seemed like there was and I just don't remember it. Anyway, the story was this man died and went to Heaven, where he met God and leared that, he was the only real soul on the Earth as he, basically he was a god in prenatal developement, and that he would live every life on Earth so he could develop and learn everything he needed to know to become a god of some universe. I had never heard anything like it before and thought it was interesting. Carry on.

drstevej said:

Let me thank you for being willing to say what other Mormons have been unwilling to say.

Is She worthy of worship? Should we add the other offspring of the Heavenly Parents to the Godhead?
Is She worthy of praise? If so, why do so few Mormons praise her in these forums?

I look forward to your answers. I would like to sort out LDS thinking on this.

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Well I'll give it my best shot;

Is She worthy of worship….Praise?

Most assuredly, she is equal to our Father and loves us as her children. But first our Father hasn’t revealed much about her except that she exist, we feel she is protected. We do sing about her on occasion but … what do you want?

Second and this is my feeling, in the past the worship of her was turned into idol worship, the pagan god Asherah is an example and this seems to be happening again in another sense. We have in Mormonism a very small faction of feminist who have started advocating praying to our Mother in Heaven. I can hear them in my mind whining like little child ‘Heavenly Mother please tell Daddy to let us have the priesthood’.

What they are doing is dividing the Father from the Mother when they are one. I feel like when I pray to my Father my Mother is there also.

*Should we add the other offspring of the Heavenly Parents to the Godhead?

Not to the Godhead, we do assume the Holy Spirit is another Son of God. However we are all sons and daughters of our Heavenly Parents. You, me and all of mankind on this earth and worlds without number are the offspring of God.

We look at Gen 1 as the spiritual creation and while the 2nd chapter in someway mirrors the first it is the physical creation.

“And God/El saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day….Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them…These are the generations/history of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God/Yahweh made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:…And the Lord God/Yahweh formed man of the dust of the ground…”

Everything was created spiritually right down to the last blade of grass before it was created physically. Sometime put the two chapters up next to each other and see just how many difference there are.

In Mormonism we speak a lot of stewardship, Paul does it a lot. I feel the spirit world is similar in that each member of the Godhead has his/her own stewardship.

The Father is looking at the big picture, planning and organizing worlds without end. He also is busy welcoming home those who overcome and attain that seat in his throne. (Rev 3)

Our Mother in Heaven is busy preparing her spirit children to enter this earth life, she’s in charge of the nursery and dealing with rebellious spirits like the third who lost their first estate. (Being God is not easy)

Jesus our elder brother is responsible for this earth life. He oversees with the help of the Holy Spirit all that goes on here. He is preparing us to go back into the presence of our Father and Mother.

“I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named..” Eph 3

Dose that help or just open the door to more question.

withwonderingawe said:

"We look at Gen 1 as the spiritual creation and while the 2nd chapter in someway mirrors the first it is the physical creation. Everything was created spiritually right down to the last blade of grass before it was created physically.

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I know this is perhaps an odd excerpt to take out of all that you just wrote, but what do you mean by a "spiritual" creation vs a "physical" one A "blade of grass" has a "spirit"?

Also, if Genesis 2:4-25 and following is about the physical creation of the various parts of the earth and the heavens, it sure seems like a lot of things were just created spiritually, and not physically (again, whatever that means?)! To me, Genesis 2:4-25 seems to be mostly an expansion of our understanding and knowledge of what happened on the 6th Day of Creation (Genesis 1:24-31), with a very special focus on the creation of man.

Genesis 2:1 tells us that God completed all of His work by the end of the 6th Day, and that He rested on the 7th (v2). Where does the Bible teach us about a 2nd Creation in Genesis 2 following the one He just finished in Genesis 1, especially considering the clue we receive from Him in Genesis 2:1-3 that He had already completed all the work He was going to do

Thanks!

--David

St_Worm2 said:

Hi again withwonderingawe (this is my other promised reply to you ), I was told by another LDS CF member that was true, but that the concept of a "Heavenly Mother" was not "official" Mormon doctrine, at least not at this point in time. I also said that I can understand how such a belief could possibly arise considering what else you believe, that YHVH was, at one time in the past, a man himself, just like we are now. Christians and Jews do not believe that we were made in the image of God PHYSICALLY, since the Bible is clear that the Father is "Spirit" only.

I will also say that your rewording of Genesis 1:26 above would be (at the very least) considered heresy of the most extreme order by Jews, Muslims, and even by us Christians (who hold to the doctrine of the Trinity) based upon Deuteronomy 6:4 alone (the Bible is replete with similar testimony concerning Him however, as I am sure you are aware). You continue:



I assume you mean "Sophia" yes? You cannot possibly believe that God gave commanded or gave His permission for such a thing to occur. Israel sinned greatly throughout the years and was punished by God in numerous ways for their sinful behavior. If you have an example of God commanding the worship of a Sophia in the Holy Scriptures, please share it with us. She was certainly never mentioned in the Torah's very extensive instructions that described how the Temple should be built and how the worship of God was to be carried out.

As to her becoming an idol and, as a result, having our knowledge of her deliberately taken away, how can that possibly be true if Sophia is truly a Goddess? How can the worship of a true "God" ever become idolatry? Do you have any evidence of such a thing happening in the annals of Jewish history, or is this simply conjecture on the part of the LDS You continue:



Uhh, while our friends in the RCC do go a little bit overboard with their treatment of Mary, I do not believe they will ever come to the point of calling her God and a fourth member of the Godhead. Also, I'm nearly 60 years old and I have never, not even once, heard the Blessed Virgin's name used as a "curse" word. Who does that Again, you continue:



I will not comment on what you just said other than to confirm that such a teaching is conjecture on the part of Mormons and not a doctrinal teaching of Mormonism, right?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

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*…since the Bible is clear that the Father is "Spirit" only.

Where does it say "only" in the Bible?

What about “God is light”? 1John 1:5

In Rev 21 it says
“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes”

Jesus often spoke of his body as a temple, in this passage it say the tabernacle of God himself will be with us and he has the hands to wipe way our fears.

A great deal of the problem we have in communicating with each other is that we view what a spirit is differently. I did not understand that until a few years ago. When someone tried to explain the Trinity to me I kept imagining this spirit shaped like a man trading physical forms back and forth, didn’t make any sense. Then I learned that you view God much like Greek Philosophy, a spirit has no element it is pure mind, reasoning outside of matter. There is no physical form, God is not a he but an it with no gender at all. Still very puzzling to me since the God of the Bible is a he and our Father.

“Have we not all one father? hath not one God/El created us?” Mal 2

What I find is that Mormonism reads the Bible more literally that other Christians, which surprised me as I started studying. If Stephen saw the Son standing at the right hand of the Father then that’s what he saw. You have to make the assumption that he broke out into Greek metaphysics as he lay dieing.

*I assume you mean "Sophia" yes?

No, Asherah was the Semitic Goddess known as the Queen of Heaven

“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.” Jer 7

See instead of going to Yahweh as their mediator between mankind and El they turned their prayers to her. It’s why I have a problem with Catholics praying to their saints.

* I'm nearly 60 years old and I have never, not even once, heard the Blessed Virgin's name used as a "curse" word.

Really, never heard some movie where they say ’Holy mother of God”

*such a teaching is conjecture on the part of Mormons and not a doctrinal teaching of Mormonism, right?

That fact that we have a Mother in Heaven is doctrinal. The following is from our newest addition to our canonized scriptures/ 1995. It’s called The Family; A Proclamation To The World.

“….ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

Eliza Snow wife of both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and sister of Lorenzo Snow also a prophet was considered a prophetess in her own right. She wrote the words to O My Father which I quoted way back in 1845 so the idea has been with us since the beginning.

withwonderingawe said:

That fact that we have a Mother in Heaven is doctrinal. The following is from our newest addition to our canonized scriptures/ 1995. It’s called The Family; A Proclamation To The World.

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Actually, the Proclamation To The World is not official Mormon scripture, else it would be included in the Standard Works, which it is not.

withwonderingawe said:

*…since the Bible is clear that the Father is "Spirit" only. Where does it say "only" in the Bible? What about “God is light”? 1John 1:5

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Hi withwonderingawe, it's too late for me to reply to all of this, but quickly, see John 4:24 for a "literal" description of God. As far as 1 John 1:5 is concerned, do you really believe that to be a description of God's physical attributes, or do you believe St. John could be describing Him as light "metaphorically" instead?

Jesus is called (among other things) a "shepherd", a "door", and a "gate". Do you believe He actually tends to a herd of woolly creatures that go bah-h-h and then makes sweaters for us after He shears them? Or do you believe when you walk up to the front door of your house and turn the knob that your door could possibly be the Lord Himself, and that He is actually and literally made of oak covered with paint?

Jesus is also called "the Light of the world". Do you understand that as a metaphor, or do you believe that He is actually the sun we see up in the sky each day

Looking quickly back to 1 John 1:5 again, if "God is Light" means He is actually and physically, "light" (IOW, His physical makeup is photons) then what do we do two verses later with, 1 John 1:7, where God is said to be "IN the light". Is He "light" ... or is He "in the light"?

Likewise, what do we do with 1 Timothy 6:16 which says of God that He, "alone possesses immortality and DWELLS in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see"? Is He "light" (actual photons), or does He "dwell in light"?

For that matter, if God is literally and physically made of "light", that does not seem to bode well for those of you who believe you are made in His image, PHYSICALLY, does it Of course, I can't see you. Are you made up of glowing photons, or do you have a body of flesh and bones like the rest of us?

Here's another thought, when God said, "Let there be light" in Genesis 1:3, was He calling Himself into existence?

Obviously I'm being very silly here, but perhaps 1 John 1:5, which says that "God is light" (and then contrasts that with the fact that "in Him there is no darkness"), is actually a metaphor that describes His character and tells us the type of Person He is (and isn't), rather than describing what He PHYSICALLY consists of?

I've gotta go. I'll get back to the rest as soon as I can. Maybe you actually see less of the Bible's descriptions of God as literal/physical, and more as metaphor, than you imagine

Yours and His,
David

Jane_Doe said:

Actually, the Proclamation To The World is not official Mormon scripture, else it would be included in the Standard Works, which it is not.

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So it is the belief or the strong conjecture of Mormons, but it is not binding upon your hearts as an official part of the Mormon faith, right? That could happen at some point in the future though, yes?

Thanks Jane

St_Worm2 said:

I know this is an perhaps an odd excerpt to take out of all that you just wrote, but what do you mean by a "spiritual" creation vs a "physical" one A "blade of grass" has a "spirit"?

Also, if Genesis 2:4-25 and following is about the physical creation of the various parts of the earth and the heavens, it sure seems like a lot of things were just created spiritually, and not physically (again, whatever that means?)! To me, Genesis 2:4-25 seems to be mostly an expansion of our understanding and knowledge of what happened on the 6th Day of Creation (Genesis 1:24-31), with a very special focus on the creation of man.

Genesis 2:1 tells us that God completed all of His work by the end of the 6th Day, and that He rested on the 7th (v2). Where does the Bible teach us about a 2nd Creation in Genesis 2 following the one He just finished in Genesis 1, especially considering the clue we receive from Him in Genesis 2:1-3 that He had already completed all the work He was going to do

Thanks!

--David

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From and with Gen 2:4 the text changes from God to Lord God,

Robban said:

From and with Gen 2:4 the text changes from God to Lord God,

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That is very interesting. Lord-God/Yahweh-Elohim. What does Judaism teach us concerning the combining of His names in this verse?

Thanks!

--David

Robban said:

From and with Gen 2:4 the text changes from God to Lord God,

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Why would that be?
The serpent did not acknowledge Him as Lord,
nor Eve in their conversation.
So what,s going on over here?

Did she not know?
"Let us make man in our image"
the heavenly angels and what not that had been created previously replied,
"Nah, they will only corrupt and lie"
So, He made man in His own image, in His own image He made man.

And so we have it today, we have been given the freedom of choice and the ability to reason.

Which is pretty fair, so no one can blame another,

Jane_Doe said:

Actually, the Proclamation To The World is not official Mormon scripture, else it would be included in the Standard Works, which it is not.

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The Proclamation was first read by President Gordon B. Hinckley at a General Relief Society Meeting on 25 September 1995. I don’t know why they picked that meeting rather than the Priesthood meeting or the General Conference.

Before reading it Hinckley made a clarifying statement, it’s a prophecy.

“With so much of sophistry that is passed off as truth, with so much of deception concerning standards and values, with so much of allurement and enticement to take on the slow stain of the world, we have felt to warn and forewarn”

Compare that to D&C 89:4, makes ya stop and think.

“In furtherance of this we of the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles now issue a proclamation to the Church and to the world as a declaration and reaffirmation of standards, doctrines, and practices relative to the family which the prophets, seers, and revelators of this church have repeatedly stated throughout its history. I now take the opportunity of reading to you this proclamation.”

What they did was gather in all the thoughts previously given and narrowed it into one concise statement which could not be misconstrued.

It’s also signed by the Quorum of the First Presidency and the full Quorum of the Twelve. Some times things are signed only by the First Presidency, those are policy statements and policy can be changed but this has everyone signing on it, that’s written in stone.

Is it scripture? In my heart yes but Iron will tell you we had a little group of community activist over on belief net who rebelled. They had a petition they wanted everyone to sign like the Church was a democracy instead of a theocracy.

Now why haven’t they put it into the D&C, not sure why but perhaps it’s to weed out the wheat from the tares. They would have to present it in a General Conference for a sustaining first, I think.

withwonderingawe said:

Well I'll give it my best shot;

Is She worthy of worship….Praise?

Most assuredly, she is equal to our Father and loves us as her children. But first our Father hasn’t revealed much about her except that she exist, we feel she is protected. We do sing about her on occasion but … what do you want?

Second and this is my feeling, in the past the worship of her was turned into idol worship, the pagan god Asherah is an example and this seems to be happening again in another sense. We have in Mormonism a very small faction of feminist who have started advocating praying to our Mother in Heaven. I can hear them in my mind whining like little child ‘Heavenly Mother please tell Daddy to let us have the priesthood’.

What they are doing is dividing the Father from the Mother when they are one. I feel like when I pray to my Father my Mother is there also.

*Should we add the other offspring of the Heavenly Parents to the Godhead?

Not to the Godhead, we do assume the Holy Spirit is another Son of God. However we are all sons and daughters of our Heavenly Parents. You, me and all of mankind on this earth and worlds without number are the offspring of God.

We look at Gen 1 as the spiritual creation and while the 2nd chapter in someway mirrors the first it is the physical creation.

“And God/El saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day….Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them…These are the generations/history of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God/Yahweh made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:…And the Lord God/Yahweh formed man of the dust of the ground…”

Everything was created spiritually right down to the last blade of grass before it was created physically. Sometime put the two chapters up next to each other and see just how many difference there are.

In Mormonism we speak a lot of stewardship, Paul does it a lot. I feel the spirit world is similar in that each member of the Godhead has his/her own stewardship.

The Father is looking at the big picture, planning and organizing worlds without end. He also is busy welcoming home those who overcome and attain that seat in his throne. (Rev 3)

Our Mother in Heaven is busy preparing her spirit children to enter this earth life, she’s in charge of the nursery and dealing with rebellious spirits like the third who lost their first estate. (Being God is not easy)

Jesus our elder brother is responsible for this earth life. He oversees with the help of the Holy Spirit all that goes on here. He is preparing us to go back into the presence of our Father and Mother.

“I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named..” Eph 3

Dose that help or just open the door to more question.

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Thank you for your response. Opening doors for further questions is not a bad thing. Are you open to additional questions? If so, shall I start another thread so we do not derail this one. Again, thanks!

Steve

Eryk said:

If we define God as "an eternal, self-existing being", then that obviously doesn't apply to any of us. And eternity isn't something that can be achieved in time. Godhood in Mormonism is more like the Greco-Roman pantheon or something from Stan Lee.

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Here is the question, though: Is 'an eternal, self-existing being' an accurate description of the God of the Bible? It seems to me that the God who walks in the Garden, who holds court with the gods, etc. has more in common with the Greco-Roman pantheon than he does the 'eternal, self-existing being' of Greek philosophy.

smaneck said:

Here is the question, though: Is 'an eternal, self-existing being' an accurate description of the God of the Bible? It seems to me that the God who walks in the Garden, who holds court with the gods, etc. has more in common with the Greco-Roman pantheon than he does the 'eternal, self-existing being' of Greek philosophy.

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Well, yes, but that'd be a historical-critical view of Scripture, not the totalizing, retroactive continuity usually embraced by Christian orthodoxy.

Jane_the_Bane said:

Well, yes, but that'd be a historical-critical view of Scripture, not the totalizing, retroactive continuity usually embraced by Christian orthodoxy.

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I'm a historian. Can't help myself.

St_Worm2 said:

Hi withwonderingawe, it's too late for me to reply to all of this, but quickly, see John 4:24 for a "literal" description of God. As far as 1 John 1:5 is concerned, do you really believe that to be a description of God's physical attributes, or do you believe St. John could be describing Him as light "metaphorically" instead?

Jesus is called (among other things) a "shepherd", a "door", and a "gate". Do you believe He actually tends to a herd of woolly creatures that go bah-h-h and then makes sweaters for us after He shears them? Or do you believe when you walk up to the front door of your house and turn the knob that your door could possibly be the Lord Himself, and that He is actually and literally made of oak covered with paint?

Jesus is also called "the Light of the world". Do you understand that as a metaphor, or do you believe that He is actually the sun we see up in the sky each day

Looking quickly back to 1 John 1:5 again, if "God is Light" means He is actually and physically, "light" (IOW, His physical makeup is photons) then what do we do two verses later with, 1 John 1:7, where God is said to be "IN the light". Is He "light" ... or is He "in the light"?

Likewise, what do we do with 1 Timothy 6:16 which says of God that He, "alone possesses immortality and DWELLS in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see"? Is He "light" (actual photons), or does He "dwell in light"?

For that matter, if God is literally and physically made of "light", that does not seem to bode well for those of you who believe you are made in His image, PHYSICALLY, does it Of course, I can't see you. Are you made up of glowing photons, or do you have a body of flesh and bones like the rest of us?

Here's another thought, when God said, "Let there be light" in Genesis 1:3, was He calling Himself into existence?

Obviously I'm being very silly here, but perhaps 1 John 1:5, which says that "God is light" (and then contrasts that with the fact that "in Him there is no darkness"), is actually a metaphor that describes His character and tells us the type of Person He is (and isn't), rather than describing what He PHYSICALLY consists of?

I've gotta go. I'll get back to the rest as soon as I can. Maybe you actually see less of the Bible's descriptions of God as literal/physical, and more as metaphor, than you imagine

Yours and His,
David

"God is Spirit"
John 4:24a
​

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Well this could deserve a thread all of its own.

What is the physical nature of God?

To answer that let me ask what is the purpose of the resurrection? Why did Jesus rise from the grave?

He said in Luke 13:32 “and the third day I shall be perfected” What did he mean, I shall be perfected? Wasn’t he already perfect? No in fact he was not. He was perfectly righteous, he had perfect knowledge and the elements obeyed his will so what did he lack?

Well what happened on that third day, he was resurrected with a perfect immortal body of flesh and bone. A body which would never feel pain and die again. A perfect body which could enjoy eating.

In Deut 4 Moses makes a prophecy concerning the scattering of Israel.

“And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.”

The idea that God was an immaterial substance wasn’t even in his realm of thought, never occurred to him that a god could be made of nothing. His assumption is God is like us he sees because he has very real eyes. Have you ever wondered how an immaterial substances eats?

*John 4:23-24
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

This is not a doctrinal theses on the physical nature of God.

Who are the worshipers of God, mortal men yet they are required to worship God in spirit. The passage assumes that men have bodies and they also have spirits. It is not asking us to kill ourselves before we can worship God in truth but to worship God spirit to spirit. Paul says in 1 Cor 6 “But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” our worship should make us spiritually one with him. The passage does not precluded the idea that God also has a body, a tabernacle which his spirit dwells in like our own.

I’m sorry I really wanted to give you a more in-depth answer but I’m leaving for a week and I don’t really have the time right now.

If anyone one cares to pray for me I’m traveling with three teenagers :-O

St_Worm2 said:

So it is the belief or the strong conjecture of Mormons, but it is not binding upon your hearts as an official part of the Mormon faith, right? That could happen at some point in the future though, yes?

Thanks Jane

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Correct

withwonderingawe said:

Well I'll give it my best shot;

Is She worthy of worship….Praise?

Most assuredly, she is equal to our Father and loves us as her children. But first our Father hasn’t revealed much about her except that she exist, we feel she is protected.

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Protected from what? And why wouldn't She reveal herself? This doesn't sound much like equality.

We have in Mormonism a very small faction of feminist who have started advocating praying to our Mother in Heaven. I can hear them in my mind whining like little child ‘Heavenly Mother please tell Daddy to let us have the priesthood’.

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Shame on them for wanting actual equality!