multi-denominational question

Cactus Jack · Oct 5, 2015

Here's a few questions I have about churches & pastors-

I fail to understand why some pastors are like they are. I realize they are only as human as you and I (as mentioned in Ecclesiastes), and having been an associate pastor for a bit, I know it's not an easy job. However there are somethings that I still don't get.

1. I don't get how it can offend a pastor that I have an ordination from a non-accredited school when their ordination is from a non-accredited school. Should we be so picky about that, that we are willing to allow it to create a barrier? Shouldn't we work together instead? (I never asked for any role in the pastor's church, BTW)

2. I don't get how church "A" can have a "fight" with church "B" over doctrine, when all they have to do is respect church "B's" right to believe as they wish. And Church "B" doesn't get it either.

3. I don't get how people, clergy and pastors included, can be so stuck up on the Bible, that they ignore the passages and verses that they disagree with. Case in point, I honor the Book of Leviticus dietary laws as much as possible. It harms no one. It's my choice and it's what i can do to show Jesus how much I believe in Him. I know that obeying His word is important, but I consider it the equivalent of "extra credit" like in school. When people don't understand, they don't understand how hard it is to read Romans 14. Read it and see. I have so many tales on how I have been attacked and verbally abused just because I don't eat pork.

4. I don't see how a pastor can make fun of my impairments and consider themselves a Man of the Cloth. I forget what verse talks about "what you do unto the least of my brethern you do unto me"....

5. I don't get how it can be easier for me an ex-mormon, to return to the LDS than join a "Christian" church, when, if I didn't know any better (do I?) I'm inclined to think that race has everything to do with it (already did a post on that earlier, just didn't add the race part).

6. How can a man claim to bee a pastor when he makes sexual advances on both women AND men in his congregation, yet claim that he's not gay?

I don't get it. Seriously. How can these men actually call themselves pastors and do this? If a regular member of their congregations did some off this stuff, those members would be kicked out.

7. And finally, how can these same "Christian" pastors allege that their churches are so much better than the Mormons when the Mormons are no where near as bad? I know that similar behavior by LDS leadership is highly frowned upon and they are disciplined accordingly.

awitch · Oct 5, 2015

Cactus Jack said:
2. I don't get how church "A" can have a "fight" with church "B" over doctrine, when all they have to do is respect church "B's" right to believe as they wish. And Church "B" doesn't get it either.

I speculate a few reasons:
Alternative interpretations means competition for membership, donations, an potential political influence. Also, some churches believe that if you don't follow the religion exactly as they say, then god will be angry and punish everyone.

3. I don't get how people, clergy and pastors included, can be so stuck up on the Bible, that they ignore the passages and verses that they disagree with. Case in point, I honor the Book of Leviticus dietary laws as much as possible. It harms no one. It's my choice and it's what i can do to show Jesus how much I believe in Him. I know that obeying His word is important, but I consider it the equivalent of "extra credit" like in school. When people don't understand, they don't understand how hard it is to read Romans 14. Read it and see. I have so many tales on how I have been attacked and verbally abused just because I don't eat pork.

The Bible, due to it's length, distance from modern culture, and ambiguity, is often used to justify pre-existing biases and agendas.

6. How can a man claim to bee a pastor when he makes sexual advances on both women AND men in his congregation, yet claim that he's not gay?

Being a religious leader means having a lot of influence over the lives of many people. That power easily corrupts.
And outing yourself as gay is, at best, a career-ender in most Christian organizations.

drstevej · Oct 5, 2015

Are your questions based upon your experience with one church? Kinda sounded like it. I am familiar with many many churches that do not match your description. Check out a few more.

ananda · Oct 5, 2015

Didn't Jesus say that he was the only Shepherd/Pastor, and that his followers were all equal brethren and nothing more? I think the problem begins when some of the sheep start to elevate themselves over the other sheep.

drstevej · Oct 5, 2015

ananda said:
Didn't Jesus say that he was the only Shepherd/Pastor, and that his followers were all equal brethren and nothing more?[/QUOTE]

Where did Jesus say this?

ananda · Oct 5, 2015

"there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" JN 10:16 (cf Eze 34:23, Jn 10:11, 1Pet 2:25, Mt 23:8-11), and pastor = shepherd.
"all ye are brethren." Mt 23:8

drstevej · Oct 5, 2015

1 Peter 5
1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

One Chief Shepherd, plural under shepherds.

juvenissun · Oct 6, 2015

Cactus Jack said:
Here's a few questions I have about churches & pastors-

I fail to understand why some pastors are like they are. I realize they are only as human as you and I (as mentioned in Ecclesiastes), and having been an associate pastor for a bit, I know it's not an easy job. However there are somethings that I still don't get.

1. I don't get how it can offend a pastor that I have an ordination from a non-accredited school when their ordination is from a non-accredited school. Should we be so picky about that, that we are willing to allow it to create a barrier? Shouldn't we work together instead? (I never asked for any role in the pastor's church, BTW)

2. I don't get how church "A" can have a "fight" with church "B" over doctrine, when all they have to do is respect church "B's" right to believe as they wish. And Church "B" doesn't get it either.

3. I don't get how people, clergy and pastors included, can be so stuck up on the Bible, that they ignore the passages and verses that they disagree with. Case in point, I honor the Book of Leviticus dietary laws as much as possible. It harms no one. It's my choice and it's what i can do to show Jesus how much I believe in Him. I know that obeying His word is important, but I consider it the equivalent of "extra credit" like in school. When people don't understand, they don't understand how hard it is to read Romans 14. Read it and see. I have so many tales on how I have been attacked and verbally abused just because I don't eat pork.

4. I don't see how a pastor can make fun of my impairments and consider themselves a Man of the Cloth. I forget what verse talks about "what you do unto the least of my brethern you do unto me"....

5. I don't get how it can be easier for me an ex-mormon, to return to the LDS than join a "Christian" church, when, if I didn't know any better (do I?) I'm inclined to think that race has everything to do with it (already did a post on that earlier, just didn't add the race part).

6. How can a man claim to bee a pastor when he makes sexual advances on both women AND men in his congregation, yet claim that he's not gay?

I don't get it. Seriously. How can these men actually call themselves pastors and do this? If a regular member of their congregations did some off this stuff, those members would be kicked out.

7. And finally, how can these same "Christian" pastors allege that their churches are so much better than the Mormons when the Mormons are no where near as bad? I know that similar behavior by LDS leadership is highly frowned upon and they are disciplined accordingly.

So you don't like some churches, some pastors and some congregations.
I think that is normal and the situation might start from the first church on the earth. So, I don't think you are saying anything new.

So, what are you going to do? Excluded yourself form anything related to church? Do you still want to be a Christian? Do you like to see those people "make" you not to participate in any church activity? Do you like to be controlled by them through their words and behaviors? If not, what would be the best way to fight back?

Cactus Jack · Oct 6, 2015

awitch said:
Alternative interpretations means competition for membership, donations, an potential political influence.

Doesn’t seem right to have any competition for members. Are they a church or a club?

drstevej said:
Are your questions based upon your experience with one church? Kinda sounded like it. I am familiar with many many churches that do not match your description. Check out a few more.

No Dr. Steve, not just one church.

1. 2 different churches, two different states.
2. One church.
3. A summary from a number of churches, spread out across Nebraska, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, & Nevada.
4. One church.
5. Very real. One church.
6. Again, one church (different from #4 & #2).
7. One church.

Just from this selection, we’re talking about 17 churches across 12 states.

juvenissun said:
So you don't like some churches, some pastors and some congregations.
I think that is normal and the situation might start from the first church on the earth. So, I don't think you are saying anything new.

So, what are you going to do? Excluded yourself form anything related to church? Do you still want to be a Christian? Do you like to see those people "make" you not to participate in any church activity? Do you like to be controlled by them through their words and behaviors? If not, what would be the best way to fight back?

Right now I’m so fed up with this image of “Christianity” in how it’s exhibited. Gets me to wonder where they got their religioner from.

juvenissun · Oct 6, 2015

Cactus Jack said:
Right now I’m so fed up with this image of “Christianity” in how it’s exhibited. Gets me to wonder where they got their religioner from.

Can you "forgive"? They are just annoying, they would do no practical harm to you. It should not be that hard to forgive them.

awitch · Oct 6, 2015

Cactus Jack said:
Doesn’t seem right to have any competition for members. Are they a church or a club?

Probably very little difference.

tulipbee · Oct 6, 2015

Cactus Jack said:
Here's a few questions I have about churches & pastors-

I fail to understand why some pastors are like they are. I realize they are only as human as you and I (as mentioned in Ecclesiastes), and having been an associate pastor for a bit, I know it's not an easy job. However there are somethings that I still don't get.

1. I don't get how it can offend a pastor that I have an ordination from a non-accredited school when their ordination is from a non-accredited school. Should we be so picky about that, that we are willing to allow it to create a barrier? Shouldn't we work together instead? (I never asked for any role in the pastor's church, BTW)

2. I don't get how church "A" can have a "fight" with church "B" over doctrine, when all they have to do is respect church "B's" right to believe as they wish. And Church "B" doesn't get it either.

3. I don't get how people, clergy and pastors included, can be so stuck up on the Bible, that they ignore the passages and verses that they disagree with. Case in point, I honor the Book of Leviticus dietary laws as much as possible. It harms no one. It's my choice and it's what i can do to show Jesus how much I believe in Him. I know that obeying His word is important, but I consider it the equivalent of "extra credit" like in school. When people don't understand, they don't understand how hard it is to read Romans 14. Read it and see. I have so many tales on how I have been attacked and verbally abused just because I don't eat pork.

4. I don't see how a pastor can make fun of my impairments and consider themselves a Man of the Cloth. I forget what verse talks about "what you do unto the least of my brethern you do unto me"....

5. I don't get how it can be easier for me an ex-mormon, to return to the LDS than join a "Christian" church, when, if I didn't know any better (do I?) I'm inclined to think that race has everything to do with it (already did a post on that earlier, just didn't add the race part).

6. How can a man claim to bee a pastor when he makes sexual advances on both women AND men in his congregation, yet claim that he's not gay?

I don't get it. Seriously. How can these men actually call themselves pastors and do this? If a regular member of their congregations did some off this stuff, those members would be kicked out.

7. And finally, how can these same "Christian" pastors allege that their churches are so much better than the Mormons when the Mormons are no where near as bad? I know that similar behavior by LDS leadership is highly frowned upon and they are disciplined accordingly.

What in the world is an accredited school and how does a pastor become qualified to ordain?

Ironhold · Oct 6, 2015

tulipbee said:
What in the world is an accredited school and how does a pastor become qualified to ordain?

Wiki: Accreditation

Accreditation is the process by which an authorized third party examines a college, trade school, or similar organization and determines whether or not the organization is meeting the minimum listed standards regarding subject matter instruction, student coursework, and academic rigor.

In essence, they make sure that the student is learning what they should know in order to properly function in that field.

The reason this is so important is because a lot of "educational" outfits are willing to grant "degrees" and "certifications" to anyone who can pay their fee and do the token amount of essay-writing required to make it seem like the person is doing something. These organizations don't actually care if the person has learned anything or not; they just want the money. These schools are known as diploma mills. The process of "Pay money, write some essays, get a degree" is so pathetic and so careless that several animals have received degrees from diploma mills simply because no human being ever actually bothered to check in with them.

It is because of things like this that in most professions, "having a degree from a non-accredited institution" is the kiss of death for someone's career.

I say "most", as a rather shocking number of ministers and religious pundits do, in fact, wind up with degrees from non-accredited institutions.

Edit -

In case anyone asks, this came to light in the late 1970s / early 1980s. D. J. Nelson and Walter Martin, two then-prominent members of the Christian counter-cult movement, made "credentials" an issue: Nelson boasted of his doctorate degree, while Martin declared that the messenger was every bit a viable target as the message.

Robert and Rosemary Brown, two LDS writers, took them up on the challenge and began doing background checks.

With Nelson, they found that his doctorate came from a diploma mill; they could find no evidence of his having any sort of degree of any level from a legitimately accredited institution. They also could not find anybody who could verify his lengthy resume of supposed high-profile consulting jobs.

With Martin, they could not properly determine the accreditation status of the school where he got his doctorate from. They also could not determine if he had been properly ordained after having his first ordination revoked due to his having broken his word to the ordaining body.

Nelson's career was destroyed the minute the Browns published their findings, while Martin spent the rest of his life trying to prove the validity of his own credentials.

tulipbee · Oct 6, 2015

Deleted

Ironhold · Oct 6, 2015

tulipbee said:
The bible is the only accredited source available. Are you suggesting the Mormon Church should be an accredited source of wisdom?

Did I talk about churches?

No.

I was talking about colleges.

tulipbee · Oct 6, 2015

Ironhold said:
Did I talk about churches?

No.

I was talking about colleges.

Sorry about that. Little time gets my foot in my mouth

Ironhold · Oct 6, 2015

Basically, if someone has a degree from an unaccredited institution, then there's no guarantee that they received the proper training, education, and experience needed to properly practice their vocation.

Aidan K · Oct 6, 2015

I don't think there were any "scholars" amongst the apostles

Ironhold · Oct 6, 2015

Aidan K said:
I don't think there were any "scholars" amongst the apostles

If a person wants to be a "lay" minister (a minister who comes up from among the general body of believers), then there's nothing stopping them if their denomination allows for such things.

The issue comes when people falsely represent themselves as being something that they aren't... in other words, when they lie about their skills and education.

For example, I have an MBA. I had to do four years of undergraduate work to get my bachelor's through reputable colleges, at which point I was assigned to a team and obligated to take part in the international GLO-BUS simulation as a capstone in order to prove our skills at business management. (My team actually hit #75 in the global rankings one week, a high honor.) Furthermore, the capstone course for my marketing minor, a personal selling class, required that I actually sell a fellow classmate on a fictional product in order to pass the course (I even succeeded in up-selling the order, which is so prone to backfiring that most people are warned not to).

I did countless essays and research papers concerning both subjects in my chosen field and subjects in the general academic core subjects (like algebra and literature) on top of the regular examinations in order to demonstrate that I had sufficiently retained the required subject matter. I also had to surmount numerous obstacles, obstacles that turned a four-year degree into a seven-year venture. And then there was the day I had to haul two blown tires up a flight of stairs to illustrate a case study I was assigned to do...

Once that was done, it was another two and a half years of 500- and 600-level classes in order to get my master's degree. More papers. More presentations. More essays. I literally gave my blood, sweat, and tears working to pay tuition, especially since a massive goof on the part of the college I was attending cost me a full year's tuition assistance. I had to fight to keep my GPA afloat after I found myself in a distance-learning class taught by an incompetent professor. I had to survive yet another GLO-BUS venture.

And then once I had my MBA, I had to fight to keep it because some yahoo tried to revoke it. The head of the business department was also my student adviser. But right after I graduated, a new guy was brought in to take over adviser duties so the department head could focus on being the department head. The new guy wanted to make his mark on the college, and in order to do so he decided to upstage the department head. To this end, he went back over everyone of us who had just graduated in order to find any excuse he could to have our degrees revoked. In my case, he found a rule so obscure that not even the college's proctor was aware of it. (I took one seminar course too many, and so technically I needed one more elective.) I had to meet with the proctor in person and explain that the department head had literally signed off on my paperwork in order to get my degree re-instated. The whole affair was over in just a few days, but it still cost me a possible job offer as a civilian contractor at the local military base.

As incredible as my story may sound, however, it's typical of people who seek post-graduate degrees. Long hours in the classroom. Even longer hours doing papers. Still longer hours in hands-on training. A small fortune paid out for books, tuition, and fees, a fortune that has to either be earned while still attending class or acquired by going into crushing debt.

Now compare this to the doof who starts waving around a piece of paper that they got simply by paying a couple of thousand dollars and writing a few essays.

We went through Hell on Earth in order to establish that we're qualified to engage in the vocation and discuss the subject matter that we trained for. These people probably knocked it all out in a weekend between episodes of "Keeping Up With The Kardashians."

Yeah.

That's why folks who got their degrees the old-fashioned way tend to not be happy with folks who got their degrees from diploma mills.

com7fy8 · Oct 8, 2015

Cactus Jack said:
I don't get how it can offend a pastor that I have an ordination from a non-accredited school when their ordination is from a non-accredited school.

Have you asked that pastor why that pastor is offended by the ordination from your school? In order to answer your question, I think we need to know more. Your school might have beliefs which that pastor finds to be un-Biblical.

Also, since I do not know you, I need to consider it possible that the other pastor is not offended but is very concerned about what you believe and cares about you. But if you are in denial, you could suppose he is offended. So, I think we need for that pastor to speak for one's own self, about this.

Cactus Jack said:
Should we be so picky about that, that we are willing to allow it to create a barrier? Shouldn't we work together instead? (I never asked for any role in the pastor's church, BTW)

Well, if that pastor is wrong, why would you want to work together with a hypocritical person?

On the other hand, in case your school teaches what is wrong, surely you will not be accepted by someone who believes what the Bible says. And so, in such a case, it would not be about accreditation, but about if your school teaches in agreement with what that pastor and his school considers to be important and needed.

Cactus Jack said:
I don't get how church "A" can have a "fight" with church "B" over doctrine, when all they have to do is respect church "B's" right to believe as they wish. And Church "B" doesn't get it either.

Again, it depends on what doctrinal difference you are talking about. Also, there are the "therefores" > because of what you believe, "therefore" what do you do and think? If for only one example, you do not eat pork, therefore do you feel your belief in Jesus is superior to the belief of someone who does eat pork? If your therefore has some superiority attitude or teaching, about only a practice outward of eating pork or not . . . this could be taken to be some form of "legalism", in which people can measure themselves by certain outward religious activities they prize and use to compare themselves with other people.

In any case - - Jesus says that there will be wrong church leaders; so if one of you is really wrong, somehow, do not expect the other to go along with you. And whoever really is wrong can be very clever at being in denial . . . including accusing the right one of being wrong. So, in case I were the right pastor, I would have compassion on the wrong one, but I would not go along with what is wrong >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

Also . . . even if you both went to the same accredited school > if one of you is a lording-over ego sort of pastor, the one who is humble would not want to be yoked with you >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, as a pastor, how are you faster? > to see how others are not right, or are you as fast and "good" at pointing out how you are wrong, as you are at pointing out how others are wrong? I understand that a mature and proven pastor is very wise and expert at making us wise to how he himself can be wrong and deceptive, as our example :groupray:

Cactus Jack said:
Case in point, I honor the Book of Leviticus dietary laws as much as possible. It harms no one. It's my choice and it's what i can do to show Jesus how much I believe in Him. I know that obeying His word is important, but I consider it the equivalent of "extra credit" like in school. When people don't understand, they don't understand how hard it is to read Romans 14. Read it and see. I have so many tales on how I have been attacked and verbally abused just because I don't eat pork.

Well, if you suppose that not eating pig meat is a way of getting extra points for showing Jesus how much you believe in Him . . . I think we show Jesus how much we believe in Him, much moreso by how we love any and all people . . . following His example of how He has loved us >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

And, "therefore", a dietary gesture would be very minor by comparison with the sacrifices I make, of forgiving and of being sacrificed to doing only what our Father has us doing in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

I offer that I "get" Romans 14 > which means that eating meat from a dead pig is fine with Jesus; and if I do not get extra points by trusting Jesus by eating pork, then surely you also do not get extra points by not eating pork . . . since Paul clearly says . . . in Romans 14 . . . how it does not make any difference, either way. But in case you are feeling like somehow what you are doing is better . . . when Paul says either way can be "unto the Lord", then it could be your superiority stance which is attracting the criticism and attacks; possibly you are not being attacked because of merely what is going into your mouth . . . but because of how you are coming out about it.

Why would so many people even know about you not eating meat from a dead pig? I mean, if our Apostle Paul means for us to be humble about what we eat and not to look down on those who eat differently than we do, then why would we make a show of letting people know what we eat? Why would any of us be calling a lot of attention to what we eat, if Colossians 3:2 says to keep our minds on things above? Why would we make some project of calling attention "elsewhere", if God is trusting us to pastor people's attention to "things above", not to "things on the earth"? If you were humbling how you don't eat pork, how ever would a lot of people know so they could be criticizing and attacking you? I am sure that in the Bible there are much more important things for our attention . . . and as pastors we need to shepherd people's attention to what is most important.

There are so many things you can tell other people about yourself. How, ever, are so many people knowing what you eat? In my experience, for a while I did tell people about my personal issues and background and faults, in order to get attention and to show I was interested in having open and personal communication. But, instead, I got the listening ears of Christians, and attacks by a number of people who were not Christians. The really Christian people would listen, and might offer some feedback, but they did not just open up and tell me all their personal business. Because, I would say, we need to get bonded and test one another about how we trust each other, then share in ways which are good for us. So, if you have been somehow broadcasting your eating habits so even strangers can be attacking you, I would say it is good to get to know someone, and test how you do well to trust each other. And make sure you call attention to what is most valuable and edifying.

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