John 6, Everybody Is Predestined?

nb408 said:

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." John 6:65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the father has enabled them." John 6:37 "All those the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." By reading these scriptures it makes it sound like God has only called specific people into his grace.

That has been a long term understanding of the Scripture. But there has been more recent revisiting of the basis for that teaching and its biblical basis has been seriously questioned. Our Trinitarian God has revealed Himself within history because the limitations of the human mind are inadequate to understand the Godhead and purposes sufficiently. Paul teaches in Romans 1 that some things about God are known through creation, but that is insufficient for comprehending the many depths of what required a more comprehensive revelation.

Thus, God draws all humanity by first endeavouring to awaken belief and trust. Sadly, only some respond.

He also said those words are full of the spirit and I don't understand them because I am of the flesh. John 6:63 "The spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing." What exactly is the spirit? How do I live by the spirit if I don't even know what it is?

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You are no longer of the flesh. Flesh as Paul often uses it refers to all that is outside the Life of the Spirit, the kingdom of God brought to us by and in Jesus. Christians are now 'spirit people' (Rom 81-2) in contrast to 'the flesh' their previous lifestyle , whatever and how religious and sincere that was. We are both buried and raised with Christ as new creations, not patched up dual-natured people engaged in an endless internal 'civil war'.

John
NZ

John 6:37 "All those the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

The 'All' is not every man, woman, and child that ever lived.

Eph4:26 said:

John 6:37 "All those the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

The 'All' is not every man, woman, and child that ever lived.

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What is your point? If it is that only some individuals are selected for salvation then alternatively that verse can be seen within a context of God's prior seeking of all people, although we know from other Scriptures a person must chose to relate to God through Christ. Humanity's requiring some initial approach by God does not necessitate nor imply that God's activity is individually selective.

John
NZ

Please allow me to examine this in greater detail.

If my two sons are playing in the park with the neighbor kids. I open the door and yell 'Dinner's ready'! Do all the children hear my voice? Do all the children respond to my call?

The answer to the first 'all' is yes.
The answer to the second 'all' is no.

What I have just done is present a simple analogy of the difference between what James Akin writes about in "A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP" (google it for the complete article).

Sufficient Grace -
Being as much as is needed.

Efficacious Grace-
Producing or capable of producing a desired effect.

The desired effect of me calling my children, and no one else, is that they came home for dinner.

Likewise, isn't the life\death\resurrection of Jesus known by all men? Yes. In other words, Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all men to know who Jesus was. Atheist\Buddist\Hindos\Islamist\Jews all know who Jesus was.

However, not all men are going to come to a knowledge of Christ. The bible teaches that only a few are. Jesus' resurrection produced the desired effect within His predestinated Family.

"
I'm just really confused because it's either too much grace or too many rules. I can never be in a place where I'm right in the middle, it's either one or the other."

Grace is the starting point. Following the rules is what comes after.

nb408 said:

By reading these scriptures it makes it sound like God has only called specific people into his grace. He also said those words are full of the spirit and I don't understand them because I am of the flesh.

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God exists in the past, present, and future at the same time.
Being flesh, you think in a linear manner and one thing precedes
or follows another. So talk of God knowing your future is not
easy to grasp.

In response to the OP: this certainly shows a strong concept of God's grace. However it's also consistent with classical Arminianism and Catholic theology. Pretty much all theology agrees that God's grace precedes our response, and is necessary for it.

Brown's commentary (Anchor Bible) has this to say:

The stress in vs. 37 that God destines men to come to Jesus does not in the least attenuate the guilt in vs. 36 of those who do not believe. One might conjecture that the reason that they do not believe is because God has not “given” them to Jesus. Yet, it would be unfair to NT thought-patterns to elaborate this as a psychological explanation of the refusal to believe. The NT often gives its explanation on a simplified level wherein all happenings are attributed to divine causality without any sharp distinction between primary and secondary causality. Nor do these verses resolve the disputes about predestination that have been the subject of theological debate since Reformation times. With all John’s insistence on man’s choosing between light and darkness, it would be nonsense to ask if the evangelist believed in human responsibility. It would be just as much nonsense to doubt that, like the other biblical authors, he saw God’s sovereign choice being worked out in those who came to Jesus.

nb408 said:

My only answer to that is I want to go to heaven? I want to be part of his family and I want to know him.

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THIS IS WHAT JESUS SAYS TO YOU: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20). "Any man" includes you.

However nobody can know him unless the father draws them in. I know it also says seek and you will find but I'm seeking and unless the father draws me in it's useless.

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The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ALL draw men to Christ, and they exclude no one.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30) "All men" includes you.

I know I need help and I want God's forgiveness but I don't feel like I really know God. I want to know God with such confidence that I'm in a place of peace that surpasses understanding.

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Just as you want to know God, God wants to know you.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true,even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 Jn 5:20). When you receive Christ as your Lord and Savior, you also receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) and thus you know God and He knows you.

I'm just really confused because it's either too much grace or too many rules. I can never be in a place where I'm right in the middle, it's either one or the other.

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There is never too much grace, and as for rules, there are only two great commandments, which have now become one Law of Christ (Rom 13:10): and if there beany other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Job8 said:

THIS IS WHAT JESUS SAYS TO YOU: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20). "Any man" includes you.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ALL draw men to Christ, and they exclude no one.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30) "All men" includes you.

Just as you want to know God, God wants to know you.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true,even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 Jn 5:20). When you receive Christ as your Lord and Savior, you also receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) and thus you know God and He knows you.

There is never too much grace, and as for rules, there are only two great commandments, which have now become one Law of Christ (Rom 13:10): and if there beany other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

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Really glad you broke it down for us all. Thank you.

THe answer is yes! Everyone is predestined:

Romans 8:28-30:
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-10:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

People wrestle with those passages instead of accepting them for what the say. ALL who will be in heaven will have ben written BEFORE the foundation of the world! Ephesians 1:4!

nb408 said:

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

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nb408 said:

John 6:65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the father has enabled them."

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nb408 said:

John 6:37 "All those the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

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I guess I will throw one more opinion in to the mix.

nb408 said:

By reading these scriptures it makes it sound like God has only called specific people into his grace.

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I think v.38-40 should clarify the verses you cite:

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day

The Father will draw every one who sees the Son and believes in Him, and not just some lucky predestined few. To argue against this, I think, is to argue that the Father acts contrary to His own will.

nb408 said:

He also said those words are full of the spirit and I don't understand them because I am of the flesh. John 6:63 "The spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing." What exactly is the spirit? How do I live by the spirit if I don't even know what it is?

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We know from Scripture that we have a body, a soul, and a spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:21). I personally think the most important teaching in Scripture on how we are to regard our spirit was given by the Lord Himself very early in His ministry: Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:3). John Cassian, a 5th century Church Father, wrote:


Those are my thoughts, anyway.

colorfulballoon said:

God predestined our destiny, it is real. But God also give us the right of free chosen. Our destiny is decided by God and ourselves. I read the words of Almighty God: "While God does the work of salvation, he sets a standard for man. This standard is that man can listen to God’s words and walk in God’s ways. By this standard man’s outcome is judged. If you practice according to this standard from God, then you will receive a good outcome; if you do not practice according to this standard, then you cannot receive a good outcome. So by whom do you say this outcome is decided? It is not decided by God alone, but by God and man together. Is that right? (Yes.) "
from " A Continuation of The Word Appears in the Flesh"

Read more: By Whom Man’s Outcome Is Decided
Man’s Attitude Toward God Decides His Destiny

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Not likely when predestined from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. While we may like to think our choices have something to do with it scripture won't support such a view.

One of God's attributes is omniscience...so God knows the choices we make. It was God who told Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you"...Jeremiah 1:5.

There are many such examples. Take God telling Moses BEFORE he sent Him into Egypt what the outcome would be. So while we may choose...God already knows the choices we make.

Bottom line is to let God be God.

Sadly some are TAUGHT to read Ephesians 1 and stop the flow of thought at verse 10...Paul's conclusion is found in verses 13 and 14....verse 13 tells us..."In whom you trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Which fully agrees with what John tells us when he says in John 1:12 "as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"....

It does not say that the sons of God are the ones that to whom He gives the power to receive Him...

Now re-read Revelations 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any person hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me

Not I am already with, and in, those who will open....the knock is the call of the Spirit (maybe through the word or a prophet or preacher or maybe directly from the Lord to one's heart or mind)...some will open and some will not (and they are without excuse) because they reject God and the knowledge of God

All these passages, both those about God's drawing AND man's foreordained requirement to respond appropriately must be taken as the whole of the doctrine not just one side versus the other...

pshun2404 said:

Sadly some are TAUGHT to read Ephesians 1 and stop the flow of thought at verse 10...Paul's conclusion is found in verses 13 and 14....verse 13 tells us..."In whom you trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Which fully agrees with what John tells us when he says in John 1:12 "as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"....

It does not say that the sons of God are the ones that to whom He gives the power to receive Him...

Now re-read Revelations 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any person hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me

Not I am already with, and in, those who will open....the knock is the call of the Spirit (maybe through the word or a prophet or preacher or maybe directly from the Lord to one's heart or mind)...some will open and some will not (and they are without excuse) because they reject God and the knowledge of God

All these passages, both those about God's drawing AND man's foreordained requirement to respond appropriately must be taken as the whole of the doctrine not just one side versus the other...

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You can't exclude other verses like:

John 6:44:
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 9:16-18:
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Now, here's the ringer...Isaiah 64:8:
8 But now, O Lord, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.

When you study this out you understand that the verses you quote are God speaking in His word to draw those He calls however NO ONE will be able to say to God the had no opportunity to believe on Him.

You're correct...you have to take all of God's word on the matter into account, but you also have to understand when it's all said and done God already knows those whom He has chosen...and He chose them from the foundation of the world.
It's all a work of God.

It was Jesus who said emphatically in John 6:63-65:
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Ya, that concept has always baffled me. It does sound like it's already decided who will b saved. God is God and He does what He wants. But I feel of course it's still our duty to witness because we don't know if that person is one to b saved or not. I believe everything in the Bible and it's good to ponder things and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. It's a life long process.

Some pretty shallow theology and exegesis above. Those 'proof texts' are either taken out of a context of a much longer line of argument, as occurs in Romans, or fail to understand in what capacity Jesus made those statements.

John
NZ