Sexual immorality/ adultery

Hank77 said:

Maybe you don't understand the difference in debating or disagreeing about a doctrine and a Personal attack?

This is a personal attack.

Again a personal attack.

However, I will say that even when we are discussing doctrines, etc. using caps. when writing can be interpreted as yelling at the other person and that isn't polite conversation either.

By the way John Wesley was never a Calvinist and he was never a Pelegian or a Semi-Pelegian. Wesley never believed in predestination or irresistible grace but on other salvation doctrines he agreed very closely with Calvin. But that discussion is for a different thread.

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You need to follow me and remind me of my attacks. I need to learn not to. Thanks

tulipbee said:

You need to follow me and remind me of my attacks. I need to learn not to. Thanks

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Maybe you should follow me around so that when I lose my cool, you can tell me to cool it!

tulipbee said:

Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is given to the newly regenerated elect person AS he hears the Gospel preached. Romans 10 makes it clear that God uses the preaching of the Gospel in the general call to all. But in that general there is another call. That other call is Raye inward effectual call of the Spirit given only to the elect. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Only the sheep hear the voice of Christ. Romans 10:17; John 10:24-27. The reprobate do not believe because they are not His sheep.
Jesus said...Ye believe not because ye are not My sheep.......C J Ray

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Are you "C.J.Ray"?
Or are you the member of a cult of Rayens, who you claim are the elect, the only ones given God's Holy Spirit?

Hank77 said:

Maybe you should follow me around so that when I lose my cool, you can tell me to cool it!

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I think I need to cool it cause I've had superiors to tell me to cool it or else.

Douglas Hendrickson said:

Are you "C.J.Ray"?
Or are you the member of a cult of Rayens, who you claim are the elect, the only ones given God's Holy Spirit?

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I don't know how Raye got into the text. The bible sums up into two different calls. One is the general call and the other is the effectual call. The elects are told to proclaim the gospel to the unregenerates anyway so we do it anyway cause we're told to do so. What we proclaim to the unregenerates has no effect on them. They were never chosen nor given to Jesus for Him to die for and save. Those who were effected by the gospel were already regenerated before they were born. It's called predestination. God assigned the elects to believe ahead of time. That means they were first regenerated and then they had faith to believe. They believed cause God first regenerated them. This is straight from the bible in plain view. That post I posted is pretty much written in the same view but I don't know Ray. To call what I just wrote cult is to call the bible a lie. Faith precedes regeneration is the lie and not from the bible.

tulipbee said:

I don't know how Raye got into the text. The bible sums up into two different calls. One is the general call and the other is the effectual call. The elects are told to proclaim the gospel to the unregenerates anyway so we do it anyway cause we're told to do so. What we proclaim to the unregenerates has no effect on them. They were never chosen nor given to Jesus for Him to die for and save. Those who were effected by the gospel were already regenerated before they were born. It's called predestination. God assigned the elects to believe ahead of time. That means they were first regenerated and then they had faith to believe. They believed cause God first regenerated them. This is straight from the bible in plain view. That post I posted is pretty much written in the same view but I don't know Ray. To call what I just wrote cult is to call the bible a lie. Faith precedes regeneration is the lie and not from the bible.

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God's will is for all to be saved. It seems you are saying this is impossible?
With God all things are possible. (Not that it will necessarily happen, of course.)

Considering your word "regenerate," does that not mean there was something generated in the first place? Like the person was at least born?

You can call people who are not one of your select elect "unregenerates" (and I guess it doesn't matter what you call them since they can never possibly be saved?); is that the many that are "called," but there are few (like you - I don't mean to be personal) who are chosen?

"... assigned the elects to believe"? What kind of belief is that? Forced belief?

Douglas Hendrickson said:

God's will is for all to be saved. It seems you are saying this is impossible?
With God all things are possible. (Not that it will necessarily happen, of course.)

Considering your word "regenerate," does that not mean there was something generated in the first place? Like the person was at least born?

You can call people who are not one of your select elect "unregenerates" (and I guess it doesn't matter what you call them since they can never possibly be saved?); is that the many that are "called," but there are few (like you - I don't mean to be personal) who are chosen?

"... assigned the elects to believe"? What kind of belief is that? Forced belief?

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I can talk all you want but I get my info from the bible. The sinful man:

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).

tulipbee said:

I can talk all you want but I get my info from the bible. The sinful man:

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).

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No answers to any of my questions huh?
You can talk all I want? (To answer my questions.) Or can't?
It seemeth that you can't?
Means there are no true answers you would like (to share)?

Douglas Hendrickson said:

No answers to any of my questions huh?
You can talk all I want? (To answer my questions.) Or can't?
It seemeth that you can't?
Means there are no true answers you would like (to share)?

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The true answers are regeneration precedes faith. It's simple. Salvation is of the Lord. Men are helpless. Not a good idea to make God look bad when He wills and nothing happens. What God wills will happen. Your embarrassing the Christians by saying all will go to heaven and none will go to hell.
Please consider that it is God who:
- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).
- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).
- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).
- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).
- chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).
- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).
- grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).
- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).
- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).
- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).
- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

It is man who:
- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

@ tulipbee,

"... assigned the elects to believe"? What kind of belief is that? Forced belief?

You have no role (to play) in your own beliefs (let alone an other's)?

Is that what you say, and does that not contradict the whole idea of "belief"?

Douglas Hendrickson said:

@ tulipbee,

"... assigned the elects to believe"? What kind of belief is that? Forced belief?

You have no role (to play) in your own beliefs (let alone an other's)?

Is that what you say, and does that not contradict the whole idea of "belief"?

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The role is me believing but I believed cause Good first regenerated me. Believing while no having the ability before God regenerates me isn't in the bible . It comes from your leaders and your people with traditions. You see that in the above quotes in my last post. You have to read God's words to see that I'm right and you're wrong.

tulipbee said:

I think I've read that if a man commits adultery, his wife also commits adultery even though she didn't do anything.

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Who ever wrote that was way off base and teaching lies.

tulipbee said:

I've also read that if a woman can't proiduce a baby then the husband may find another woman that can.

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That is Samaritan doctrine.

DaveW-Ohev said:

That is Samaritan doctrine.

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What is a Samaritan doctrine?

DaveW-Ohev said:

Who ever wrote that was way off base and teaching lies.

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The wife cause the man to commit adultery cause the wife refused stiuff. Going deeper into the word should be helpful

tulipbee said:

What is a Samaritan doctrine?

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Um - doctrine of the Samaritans. They lived in what is now known as the West Bank area in bible times.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Um - doctrine of the Samaritans. They lived in what is now known as the West Bank area in bible times.

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I'm sure I didn't get my info from that so it must be more widespread than that

Douglas Hendrickson said:

But Jesus said if anyone looks at another woman with lustful intent he has committed adultery with her in his heart.

I am new - this is my very first post. Will the copy paste above go in as shaded (grey)?

Can we think Jesus meant to introduce another big group as ACTUAL ADULTERERS?
Given that he saved the woman taken in adultery from being stoned?

Given the going penalty for adultery, could he have possibly meant that many many more should be susceptible to stoning?

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First CONTEXT.

The Audience he is speaking to 99.9% of the women a man would look at lustfully were MARRIED.

Its important to KNOW definitions. Adultery can ONLY happen when at least 1 person involved sexually is married.

If you are single and she is single and you engage in sexual relations it is fornication.

Exodus 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife."

G-d created men with a STRONG sex drive. I don't have an easy answer accept I am not convinced that looking at a very attractive woman and becoming sexually aroused by her = adultery or fornication (if both are single)

A better translation of the word in that verse for lust is COVET.

So is there a difference between lust and covet? IMO yes

Covet: means to obsess over, to long for, crave, to have ones heart set on...

Lust: Strong sexual desire.

Lust can become covet but they are not the same thing.

Hank77 said:

It is.


Actually it is the other way around. Woman couldn't divorce their husbands, husbands could divorce their wives.
Jesus said....
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

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One has to be very careful with that entire chapter. Yeshua is teaching the people the difference between the LETTER of the law and the HEART (or spirit if you will) of the Law.

Later in Matthew 19 (as well as Mark 10) Messiah says He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."

People get all kinds of sideways with this stuff and miss the main-point.... G-d doesn't like divorce but he also knows that man screws up pretty much on a constant basis....and because of our weakness and our propensity to do less than the perfect will of Adonai he is merciful towards us.