Is the Pope Still Anti-Christ?

SinnerInTheHands · Aug 6, 2015

Note: This is an official doctrine of Calvinism, and I'm curious to see what modern Reformed Christians think. I've post an identical thread in the Reformed Forum.

Discussion is encouraged.

"The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God." [WCF XXV.V-VI]

HeraldOfTheHolyOne · Aug 10, 2015

I'm of the opinion that the Popes continue to be antichrists in that they refuse to preach the biblical Gospel, twisting it in contradiction to what the apostles actually taught in Scripture, and lead literally billions of people to damnation in hell as a result. This all the while claiming to be a vicar of Christ on earth.

Pammalamma · Sep 4, 2015

It's my understanding that the dislike of Rome has greatly decreased in the Presbyteries, and that most versions of the WCF that are now being referred to have removed the part about the pope being antichrist? Clearly, the Borgia popes had a lot to do with this teaching, so I understand the origin.

I still think it could happen in the future that a pope is the Antichrist, but not as an ongoing or past event. But what is more likely is that a pope could be one of many antichrists, who are merely people that are afflicted by the spirit of the Antichrist, and we know this must happen to many if crowds of them will follow the future, human form Antichrist. Sadly, I have met a lot of people, some of them Christians, who seem afflicted by the spirit of the Antichrist, because they hate anything that is Christian, and they hate Christians. Most people won't admit that they hate Jesus, but you can tell that the name makes them uncomfortable, because they get angry and start swearing, which we know is demonic.

1 John 2:18-27English Standard Version (ESV)

Warning Concerning Antichrists
18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.

26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

faroukfarouk · Sep 4, 2015

Pammalamma said:
It's my understanding that the dislike of Rome has greatly decreased in the Presbyteries, and that most versions of the WCF that are now being referred to have removed the part about the pope being antichrist? Clearly, the Borgia popes had a lot to do with this teaching, so I understand the origin.

I still think it could happen in the future that a pope is the Antichrist, but not as an ongoing or past event. But what is more likely is that a pope could be one of many antichrists, who are merely people that are afflicted by the spirit of the Antichrist, and we know this must happen to many if crowds of them will follow the future, human form Antichrist. Sadly, I have met a lot of people, some of them Christians, who seem afflicted by the spirit of the Antichrist, because they hate anything that is Christian, and they hate Christians. Most people won't admit that they hate Jesus, but you can tell that the name makes them uncomfortable, because they get angry and start swearing, which we know is demonic.

1 John 2:18-27English Standard Version (ESV)

Warning Concerning Antichrists
18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.

26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

It's indeed good to get teaching about Antichrist from Scripture itself. It's interesting that John in His first Epistle speaks of 'many' antichrists.

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 4, 2015

Pammalamma said:
It's my understanding that the dislike of Rome has greatly decreased in the Presbyteries, and that most versions of the WCF that are now being referred to have removed the part about the pope being antichrist?

Only in America. Outside the U.S. all denominations use the unaltered WCF, and bar their members from attending Catholic services.

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 4, 2015

faroukfarouk said:
It's indeed good to get teaching about Antichrist from Scripture itself. It's interesting that John in His first Epistle speaks of 'many' antichrists.

Yet the WCF [unaltered] speaks of the Papacy and the Pope as the Antichrist.

faroukfarouk · Sep 4, 2015

SinnerInTheHands said:
Only in America. Outside the U.S. all denominations use the unaltered WCF, and bar their members from attending Catholic services.

I think this is a rather sweeping statement. There are to my knowledge Presbyterians of one description or another outside the US who will attend the funerals of Roman Catholic friends without looking over their shoulder as to whether they will be excommunicated.

faroukfarouk · Sep 4, 2015

SinnerInTheHands said:
Yet the WCF [unaltered] speaks of the Papacy and the Pope as the Antichrist.

Excuse me; I go by the Bible, by God's grace.

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 4, 2015

faroukfarouk said:
Excuse me; I go by the Bible, by God's grace.

And this is the forum for confessional Presbyterians.

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 4, 2015

faroukfarouk said:
I think this is a rather sweeping statement. There are to my knowledge Presbyterians of one description or another outside the US who will attend the funerals of Roman Catholic friends without looking over their shoulder as to whether they will be excommunicated.

They're obviously not Wee Frees or Wee Wee Frees. I don't consider the Kirk at the moment to be properly Presbyterian, as they don't abide to the confessions or to scripture.

faroukfarouk · Sep 4, 2015

SinnerInTheHands said:
They're obviously not Wee Frees or Wee Wee Frees. I don't consider the Kirk at the moment to be properly Presbyterian, as they don't abide to the confessions or to scripture.

Since your way of establishing what is Scriptural is so vastly distinct from my attempts in that direction, by God's grace, I'm putting you on ignore, Friend; since we can't meaningfully communicate.

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 4, 2015

faroukfarouk said:
Since your way of establishing what is Scriptural is so vastly distinct from my attempts in that direction, by God's grace, I'm putting you on ignore, Friend; since we can't meaningfully communicate.

So you're going to ignore me because on the confessional Presbyterian forum, in a thread on the confessional Presbyterian position on the pope, I hold the confessional Presbyterian stance, and then claim that we can't meaningfully communicate? This thread was meant to be a discussion among different Presbyterians about the veracity of the claim made in the unaltered WCF.

hedrick · Sep 4, 2015

SinnerInTheHands said:
Only in America. Outside the U.S. all denominations use the unaltered WCF, and bar their members from attending Catholic services.

Are you sure?

In Australia 2/3 of the Presbyterians joined a “uniting” church. So the remaining Presbyterian churches tend to be conservative. They retain the unaltered Westminster Confession, though I was unable to find a statement about the Catholic Church or the Pope.

In New Zealand, the Presbyterian Church seems to be similar to the PCUSA in its standards. They have the traditional Westminster Confession, but supplement it with a statement saying that the anti-Catholic statements no longer reflect the church’s standpoint.

Canada has a uniting church, which received many of the Presbyterians. (It seems from the Wikipedia article like they got 90% of the congregations.) But even the remaining Presbyterian Church seems closer to the PCUSA than the PCA. It greeted the new Pope as a colleague, and this article says that the Church doesn’t consider the Pope the anti-Christ: https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGz0YSJvgwj2MCfZacP8MsgKJecbQ

I haven't looked at the Scottish Kirk in detail, but this article suggests that they don't see the Pope as the anti-Christ: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/pope-francis-invited-scotland-during-5171031.

hedrick · Sep 4, 2015

I don’t see the Pope as the anti-Christ. But I do think the Catholic system is a problem. I have some concerns about theology, particularly in the area of justification. But my biggest concern is that their commitment to tradition has locked them into positions that, at least in the US, no longer reflect the actual faith of their members. This applies to a whole range of gender and sexual issues. I also have serious problems with Marian theology.

Of course I have some of the same disagreements with conservative Presbyterians (though not in the case of justification or Mary). However in the case of the Catholic Church, I do think the combination of tradition and supposed infallibility of the Pope create a system that makes reform very difficult. It is also a huge barrier to cooperation across denominations, since the Catholic Church is locked into a position of claiming (somewhat at random, since it doesn’t reflect their actual ecumenical activities) that other churches aren’t real churches. I don’t think these constitute the apocalyptic anti-Christ, but they do constitute a system that creates barriers that other Christian churches don’t have.

It's this system that constituted the barrier to reform that caused the 16th Cent Reformers to see it as the anti-Christ. (As noted above, the claim isn't that the Pope is personally the anti-Christ, but that the whole papal system is.)

hedrick · Sep 4, 2015

[removed. wrong thread.]

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 4, 2015

hedrick said:
In Australia 2/3 of the Presbyterians joined a “uniting” church. So the remaining Presbyterian churches tend to be conservative. They retain the unaltered Westminster Confession, though I was unable to find a statement about the Catholic Church or the Pope.

If they retain the unaltered WCF, that's their official statement.

hedrick said:
In New Zealand, the Presbyterian Church seems to be similar to the PCUSA in its standards. They have the traditional Westminster Confession, but supplement it with a statement saying that the anti-Catholic statements no longer reflect the church’s standpoint.

Much like the PCUSA excluding what they deemed "homophobic" and "demeaning to women" within the Book of Confessions.

hedrick said:
I haven't looked at the Scottish Kirk in detail, but this article suggests that they don't see the Pope as the anti-Christ: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/pope-francis-invited-scotland-during-5171031.

As a confessional Presbyterian, I consider the Kirk, much like the "Uniting Presbyterians", the Cumberland Presbyterians, the PCUSA, &c. to be completely apostate. However, within Scotland both the Wee Frees and the Wee Wee Frees discipline members for attending Catholic services.

Same with the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster.

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 4, 2015

hedrick said:
Right. Outside conservative Protestantism — which isn’t what you’re looking at — creation doesn’t mean 7 days and a young earth. You can certainly understand the specific Genesis stories (remember, there are two different ones, Gen 1 and 2) as legendary. But the idea it reflects underlies the whole Bible, which is that God is responsible for the universe.

That means he’s legitimately in charge. It also means that the universe reflects his nature. One of the big mysteries for scientists is why the mathematical models work so well. Why is the universe constructed so rationally? After quantum mechanics we no longer thing it’s quite so much like a simple machine, but still, why can it be described so well by laws? The Christian answer is that its rationality reflects God’s rationality.

Not only does the universe reflect God, but we do. We are made in his image. If you try to look at the Bible as a whole and ask what the overall plot is, it is God trying to restore (or if you consider the Fall to be legend, to establish) his image to man. And through man, to the whole universe. He established a covenant with Israel to help it develop that way. When that failed, he sent prophets. Finally, he sent his son.

Christians can be (and probably should be) strong and forthright. But if God is our creator, and our purpose is to reflect his image, then we should be trying to develop in a way that does that. Jesus’ normal term is obedience, not submission. There’s overlap, but they may not be identical. But if God is really our creator, and the universe and our own lives reflect him, then what he asks of us should be good for us. So it’s like a young child obeying parents. Parents who are competent and want their children to grow into strong, independent people.

One of the strengths or weaknesses (depending at least in part upon our relationship with our own parents) of Jesus’ continual reference to God as Father is that what it means depends upon our image of what it means to be a father. Is it a father who just wants his children to do what he says? Or is it a father who is concerned about developing his children into the best possible people? The meaning of obedience and submission depend upon that concept.

There’s one other core concept that should be mentioned. That is that people are part of a web of relationships: God and man, husband and wife, parent and child, citizen and government. Some theologians have defined personhood as being constituted entirely be the relationship of the person to others.

Wrong thread.

BryanW92 · Sep 5, 2015

faroukfarouk said:
Since your way of establishing what is Scriptural is so vastly distinct from my attempts in that direction, by God's grace, I'm putting you on ignore, Friend; since we can't meaningfully communicate.

I'm curious. When we speak of the Confession, do you understand what we are talking about? I know that over on the Non-Denom forum, they talk about Creeds and Confessions as the work of the Devil and I agreed with that until I sat down and read the Westminster Confession of Faith with its myriad of proof texts for each statement in the Confession. Its not a "man-created document" as the Non-Denoms think*, but a well-written clarification of scripture that includes all the evidence from scripture.

*Because they think that anything "man-created" is counter-scriptural.

faroukfarouk · Sep 5, 2015

BryanW92 said:
I'm curious. When we speak of the Confession, do you understand what we are talking about? I know that over on the Non-Denom forum, they talk about Creeds and Confessions as the work of the Devil and I agreed with that until I sat down and read the Westminster Confession of Faith with its myriad of proof texts for each statement in the Confession. Its not a "man-created document" as the Non-Denoms think, but a well-written clarification of scripture that includes all the evidence from scripture.

My simple point would probably be that no pope is mentioned in Scripture. And Scripture mentions many antichrists (1 John).

Gnarwhal · Sep 6, 2015

The Pope is a bishop, "Pope" is just a title that evolved out of a term of endearment. The bishop of the Coptic Church in Alexandria is also called Pope (currently Tawadros II). Bishops have been a part of the church structure since the beginning. In the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), it isn't Peter—the leader of the apostles—who made the final decision, it was James (the Just, AKA the brother of the Lord). James was the Bishop of Jerusalem and therefore it was up to him to make the final judgment call for the issue at hand.

Is the Pope Still Anti-Christ?

Is the Pope Still Anti-Christ?

Yes

No, not any more.

No, the Pope never was.

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