Hypothetical question for Catholics

football5680 · Sep 2, 2015

The Pope must be Catholic and a statement like this is heretical and I would consider him an apostate. At that point his words are meaningless because they are coming from an unbeliever.

WarriorAngel · Sep 2, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
Remember, this is a hypothetical scenario. I'm not suggesting that this will happen, and I don't believe it ever will.

But what if a Pope were to ever tell the world that Jesus Christ was wrong, that we are more enlightened, and that the Church should "get with the times" and conform to the secular world, who would you choose?

For me, my answer for this hypothetical scenario is I would choose Jesus Christ. And I would expect that Jesus would return relatively soon after that since He is God and promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.

He would be cast out as an anti pope.
You cant worry about these things - it wouldnt happen.

If you chose the Pope - you chose Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Poor Beggar · Sep 2, 2015

frenchdefense said:
For a lot of people this already happened.

They call it Vatican II.

Agreed. Like with most things, the devil was wily so people don't notice.

LivingWordUnity · Sep 2, 2015

WarriorAngel said:
He would be cast out as an anti pope.
You cant worry about these things - it wouldnt happen.

I didn't say that it would happen. It is a hypothetical question to get Catholics to think about the true hierarchy of the Church and that in that hierarchy the Pope has no authority to go against Jesus and the deposit of faith. Although I don't believe that the scenario that I presented in the OP will happen, if it did happen I would realize that I was wrong and would change my view about it. However, even if it did happen it would not mean that the gates of Hell would prevail against the Church since the final victory will still be with the Church, not by what the Church can do for herself but by the intervention of Jesus when He returns and slays the Antichrist. Jesus said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, but he also said, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:24) So it seems like there is at least a possibility for that scenario. And the Catechism of the Catholic Church says (added emphasis):

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Notice that it says in the Catechism that the Church on earth will die just before Jesus returns.

So the question is: What kind of "death" will this be?

WarriorAngel said:
If you chose the Pope - you chose Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

That's true unless the hypothetical situation in the OP were to happen.

WarriorAngel · Sep 2, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
I didn't say that it would happen. It is a hypothetical question to get Catholics to think about the true hierarchy of the Church and that in that hierarchy the Pope has no authority to go against Jesus and the deposit of faith. Although I don't believe that the scenario that I presented in the OP will happen, if it did happen I would realize that I was wrong and would change my view about it. However, even if it did happen it would not mean that the gates of Hell would prevail against the Church since the final victory will still be with the Church, not by what the Church can do for herself but by the intervention of Jesus when He returns and slays the Antichrist. Jesus said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, but he also said, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:24) So it seems like there is at least a possibility for that scenario. And the Catechism of the Catholic Church says (added emphasis):

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Notice that it says in the Catechism that the Church on earth will die just before Jesus returns.

So the question is: What kind of "death" will this be?
That's true unless the hypothetical situation in the OP were to happen.

It's not even a consideration...
The Pope is the 'visual' of Jesus Himself in the seat of His teaching.
So its not possible for him to do that - but the Church would warrant him immediately an anti pope - so its never a scenerio that could exist...hypothetically or not.

We wouldnt have to chose because it just cannot exist.

Mountain_Girl406 · Sep 2, 2015

That's kind of my point. Catholics trust in the apostolic succession to help understand both Jesus' recorded words and actions and those left unrecorded. So if the Pope disagrees with an individual's personal interpretation, how does that individual proceed?

Michie said:
Jesus did not come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it. And if we believe in who Jesus chose as His disciples and apostolic succession as well as Jesus saying He would not leave us orphans, the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church... I think
The answer is obvious regardless of unrecorded acts and sayings left out of Scripture. JMO

WarriorAngel · Sep 2, 2015

Mountain_Girl406 said:
That's kind of my point. Catholics trust in the apostolic succession to help understand both Jesus' recorded words and actions and those left unrecorded. So if the Pope disagrees with an individual's personal interpretation, how does that individual proceed?

The Pope cannot change Tradition.
We have the Bishops to ensure in councils whether a Pope is unsound in matters of the permanent teachings.
And the Pope would be considered an anti pope immediately - no questions asked.

This whole scenerio is dangerous because it pits the Pope against His own chair of Peter who is the visible head of the Church and the Teacher of all.

SO dont let this worry you.

Davidnic · Sep 2, 2015

Well if such a thing happens I would not leave the Church. The Pope will have left the Church. But I would no longer adhere to the institutional visible Church if it supported him in such a thing. So if immediate measures were not taken to end that situation I would leave what had formerly been the visible Church while working to help reestablish it with the Clergy and believes who remained faithful.

But again I do not say I would leave the Church because it would be the Pope who left.

Michie · Sep 2, 2015

We have these things to rely in but at the same time we should be feeding ourselves spiritually and know what it is we are following. To the point of knowing if they Pope came out and tried to turn 2000 years of Christian teaching on its ear then we know something is amiss. Of course we have the Church and Pope to guide us but remember, even the Pope cannot go against Church teaching.

Mountain_Girl406 said:
That's kind of my point. Catholics trust in the apostolic succession to help understand both Jesus' recorded words and actions and those left unrecorded. So if the Pope disagrees with an individual's personal interpretation, how does that individual proceed?

Erose · Sep 2, 2015

One thing a thread like this shows is the lack of understanding what infallibility means. I am assuming that the OP is assuming that the statement by the pope would be as supreme teacher, which means making an infallible statement.

Davidnic · Sep 2, 2015

Yes I think we're all assuming that this will be issued as a direct magisterial statement using infallibility. And I think we all know that infallibility can never contradict scripture or sacred tradition so even as an infallible statement it would not be binding.

LivingWordUnity · Sep 2, 2015

WarriorAngel said:
It's not even a consideration...
The Pope is the 'visual' of Jesus Himself in the seat of His teaching.
So its not possible for him to do that - but the Church would warrant him immediately an anti pope - so its never a scenerio that could exist...hypothetically or not.

We wouldnt have to chose because it just cannot exist.

Isn't the main point that the promise made by Jesus is that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church? So if it were the last Pope (a valid one) who did this and Jesus returns right after then the gates of Hell would not have prevailed and Jesus would still have kept His promise. And the Catechism does say that the Church will suffer a "death" just before Jesus returns. What do you believe that means? When I created the hypothetical scenario in the OP, it was because there are many Catholics, particularly in the West, who seem to believe that the Pope has no limits and can go beyond Jesus. This thread was to challenge that misconception in order to make the point that the Pope does in fact have limits and is not more than a servant of Jesus.

Petermn · Sep 2, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
Isn't the main point that the promise made by Jesus is that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church? So if it were the last Pope (a valid one) who did this and Jesus returns right after then the gates of Hell would not have prevailed and Jesus would still have kept His promise. And the Catechism does say that the Church will suffer a "death" just before Jesus returns. What do you believe that means? When I created the hypothetical scenario in the OP, it was because there are many Catholics, particularly in the West, who seem to believe that the Pope has no limits and can go beyond Jesus. This thread was to challenge that misconception in order to make the point that the Pope does in fact have limits and is not more than a servant of Jesus.

Petermn · Sep 2, 2015

Ofcourse the Pope has limits, like any other human being, but no Christian leader Catholic or otherwise could ever say that Jesus Christ is wrong. All Christians regardless of denomination do their best to follow Christ in the way they believe to be best. It may be easy to 'catch somebody out' with trick questions but its a wast of time. Follow Jesus as best you can and forget about differences between denominations, we are all human, we all get it wrong

seekingsolace · Sep 2, 2015

Hypothetically, and this may seem absurd - but it's a genuine question. If the pope sprouted horns and started raining hellfire, yet didn't change any doctrine while the cardinals stayed silent; would we have to follow him?

Mountain_Girl406 · Sep 2, 2015

What's an example of a statement by the Pope that would fit your hypothetical situation of contradicting Jesus . I'm having a hard time getting a picture of it.

Davidnic · Sep 2, 2015

Mountain_Girl406 said:
What's an example of a statement by the Pope that would fit your hypothetical situation of contradicting Jesus . I'm having a hard time getting a picture of it.

Any I can think of I can not see a Pope uttering. Essentially I could not see a Pope going against De Fide Dogma or anything related to it by cause. Dogma is actually very beautiful when we understand it. Because it really is a symphony of salvation with multiple related notes playing off of each other. I can not really picture a valid and sitting Pope sounding a note discordant with that symphony.

Michie · Sep 2, 2015

The only things I have heard and read about those bad ones in the papal office is that they did not really undermine the teaching of the RCC but failed to follow them themselves. Shoot, lots of pastors do that as well and they do make up a lot of false gospel messages.

LivingWordUnity · Sep 2, 2015

Davidnic said:
Any I can think of I can not see a Pope uttering. Essentially I could not see a Pope going against De Fide Dogma or anything related to it by cause. Dogma is actually very beautiful when we understand it. Because it really is a symphony of salvation with multiple related notes playing off of each other. I can not really picture a valid and sitting Pope sounding a note discordant with that symphony.

I will clarify that in the scenario I'm not saying that it is presented as an infallible proclamation. However, even without a claim of infallibility it would be unprecedented, and it would shake the faith of many if that were to ever happen.

MikeK · Sep 2, 2015

I had also assumed an infallible statement. If the Pope were merely errant in some statement, so what? I don't think that's unprecedented by any means.

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