"We believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic church."

Arcangl86 said:

But what about those churches which recite the creed every week but reject papal authority?

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It's 'allowed' by the papal authority, just like how the Eastern Orthodox reject the West's papal authority but is still 'allowed' to exercise rites and otherwise bishopric power.

It all falls on the idea of papal infallibility. It is what has caused schisms between the RCC and others for a thousand years now- I suppose the RCC is just trying to compensate for that damage.

Crowns&Laurels said:

It's 'allowed' by the papal authority, just like how the Eastern Orthodox reject the West's papal authority but is still 'allowed' to exercise rites and otherwise bishopric power.

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Not from the Orthodox Church's point of view ...

Nor is being in communion with the Catholic Pope what makes the Church catholic ... from our point of view.

Kylissa said:

Not from the Orthodox Church's point of view ...

Nor is being in communion with the Catholic Pope what makes the Church catholic ... from our point of view.

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That would be the Lutheran view also.

Crowns&Laurels said:

It's 'allowed' by the papal authority, just like how the Eastern Orthodox reject the West's papal authority but is still 'allowed' to exercise rites and otherwise bishopric power.

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I think you meant to say Eastern Catholics, although it still isn't an accurate statement

MoreCoffee said:

Yes, we very likely would but I like to think of the Orthodox as brethren only a hair's breadth out of communion.

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the right and left lung of the Church as one of our popes said

I think that we have very different views of church. For many of us there is church and Church.

We are all part of the body of Christ, the church. We gather in our homes and bible studies. We, as church, act as Christian evangelists to the world.

I think for most Christians, it is NOT the church that baptizes. It is not our human bodies (the church) that are the entity in which we receive communion.

It is the Church that has the sacraments/ordinances of baptism and communion. Some would add other sacraments like marriage, others not. When those who are the elders/priests/pastors of these Churches trace their beliefs and even their "priesthood" back to the apostles, we some times called these apostolic churches. This is a different sense of apostolic, then simply the teachings of the apostles as those teachings existed in Scripture.

Sometimes, I think of the apostolic Church as being one, in unity. We humans simply don't understand that we are united. I think it was Lewis who said thi. Some have thought of this as a fractured Church: Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican and apostolic Protestant (primarily Lutheran). Of course, every Church objects to this idea.
====
BOTTOM LINE
While we all confess the line of the Creed in the OP, we really do have fundamental differences in that some of us believe in a Church that was started by Jesus when he named the apostles, and that the teaching has been passed down in an unbroken line from the apostles. Others of us have no use for the idea of Church.

<Staff Edit>

If your posting here, and you obviously are, than you agree with the Nicene Creed which says we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. If your for God than you are a part of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. Remember this is the Traditional forum not General Theology, here we discuss Traditional Christianity

Kylissa said:

Not from the Orthodox Church's point of view ...

Nor is being in communion with the Catholic Pope what makes the Church catholic ... from our point of view.

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Also in the view of my Church

Admin Hat...

A number of posts have been reported for various rule violations; mainly troll like flaming of other members and their Churches, and for failing to head the "Respectful Discussion" clause of this forums statement of faith. Once these posts have been reviewed staff, by consensus may decide to impose disciplinary actions. As an Admin, I have latitude to impose preemptive actions; so further violations of these rules will result in sure and swift actions quite likely including suspension of access to Christian Forums.

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OK, back to the topic at hand!

I tend to think of catholic as meaning something like "complete" as much as "universal". As far as apostolic, I understand that as an administration or authority issue related to both the person of the apostles and the teaching of the apostles. I suppose for me that relates to the idea of being catholic - if it is the Church, it not only has the descent from the apostles, but also the teaching of the apostles, they are interconnected. Holy I understand as having the Holy Spirit guiding or inhabiting it - which perhaps would suggest that a group not showing the fruits of the Spirit, even if it seems to have the right authority and teaching, is not the Church.

One is something of a difficulty, not only because the bodies that might claim the above characteristics are several, but because I am not sure that any of them seem to have them all, all of the time. So I can only understand this unity as being, in some sense, not fully revealed to us at this time because of our limited perspective. Perhaps as time goes on, it will seem less muddled.

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, (and the Son*) Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic**, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead,
And the life of the age to come.

Amen.

* "and the Son" is the Filioque, used in Catholic Churches (except Eastern Catholics) and Protestant denominations

** "catholic" here is from the Greek katholikos and means something more like "universal" or "complete" and does not refer to the Catholic Church. Though some Protestant denominations still don't like the term and replace it with "universal".

The Creed pre-dated the Catholic Church as its own entity. It is generally accepted by all Christian denominations.

Arcangl86 said:

Considering this thread is about what it means to be part of the catholic Church, maybe you would perfer posting elsewhere.

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I think the poster misunderstands what "the catholic church" in this case means. Many of us are not Catholic.

Admin Hat...

I have closed this thread pending review.

Mark
CF Admin

FreeinChrist said:

MOD HAT

This thread has had a clean up of off topic posts. As a reminder, the site rules include:​

Statement of Purpose and Off-Topic
Read and abide by each forum's Statement of Purpose; Statement of Purpose threads are sticky threads located at the top of the forum's page. Not all forums have a Statement of Purpose thread. Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose. Submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.

Please stay on topic and if someone posts in violation, gently tell them, report the post and don't respond to them anymore.

reopening​

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Thanks Free!

I'm a fan of this quote from St. Vincent's Commonitory

"Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense "Catholic," which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors." - St. Vincent of Lerins

Christian catholicity is bound up in the universal faith of the Christian Church, what might be called the consensus of the faithful.

-CryptoLutheran

From a Catholic POV what it means to be Catholic primarily is for the Church to encompass all nations(Matt 28) and be truly universal or of the whole and in communion with the that same universal Church that Jesus Christ founded 2000 years ago and God has prophesied about since the OT . Its that simple. If anyone wants to read some in depth graduate level stuff on this I would suggest "The Mystery of Israel and the Church Vol III the Messianic Kingdom of Israel" by Catholic scholar and theologian Dr. Lawrence Feingold. He goes in depth on what it means to be Catholic from the Catholic Churches opinion and takes it back to Abraham in the OT and through the prophets and NT and early Church history. He also has section on what it means for the Church to be One, Holy, and Apostolic in the Catholic pov and shows the synthesis between all of this in scripture and tradition/history. Priceless and good stuff.


http://www.amazon.com/The-Mystery-Israel-Church-Vol/dp/0939409054

ViaCrucis said:

I'm a fan of this quote from St. Vincent's Commonitory

"Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense "Catholic," which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors." - St. Vincent of Lerins

Christian catholicity is bound up in the universal faith of the Christian Church, what might be called the consensus of the faithful.

-CryptoLutheran

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I agree that we should accept the analysis of Vincent of Lorins with regard to the meaning of the church, of sola scripture, primacy of Scripture, sufficiency of Scripture and of the importance of Tradition. I see nothing in his writings to suggest that the visible Church as the time he wrote was anything but that one catholic/Catholic Church/church.