I'm not sure how to handle this

plummyy · Aug 5, 2015

I'm agnostic/non-theist. I'm going to be visiting relatives soon who are very religious.

When I was younger, I used to spend a lot of time with them and enjoy their company, but now it's just.... every car ride evolves into them asking me how I don't kill people. They say they are interested to hear my opinion, but they will repeat their questions and spend most the time passively smiling at what I say with no response. Every time I tag along to their bible study because I want to spend time with them instead of just waiting for them to get back.... it evolves into me being isolated by the conversation they have about the "non believers" (it is a youth/young adult group, and it's where their friends can vent) when I'm just sitting there, not saying anything. Every time I try and share my music, they won't listen to it for "no reason". Conversations where they include their explicit opinions, end as soon as I offer mine. Every time I went along with them to church, it would end with the speaker looking directly at me as if they had told him to, when they ask for anyone "ready to accept Jesus Christ to come forward"---I'd say it's a coincidence, but it's happened since I was really young.

When we get along, we get along really well. There are moments where we all say the right thing, and the conversation is filled with laughter and no sort of set-backs, but it's gotten very rare. No visit of the late has ended with me wanting to stay longer---when we were younger, I used to beg my parents to let me stay another day, another week. But now? I drove home at 3 in the morning because I didn't want to wait until 8 am. They've stopped talking to me almost altogether and I've made no attempt to speak to them. It's been half a year since I last saw them, and now I'm driving to a family reunion.... at their house. I'm ready to just burn the bridge, let them go, but I used to be so close with them and I know that I'll get hyped up just as much as I used to, and then feel let-down as soon as the repetitious interaction begins.

As I said, it's been a long time since I was really in good terms with any of them. I remember a specific time, at another reunion (of sorts) when I tried to just stay away from them and barely speak to them.... but I felt a compulsion to talk to them, thinking they would act different---and they always do at first! As if they're just as happy to see me as I am to see them (picture: I get out of my car and they run towards me, and I run towards them) but it wears off. And it makes me feel sad about it because it's clear to me that they can't get along with me because of their beliefs, and I can tell that they want to just as much as I do. Truthfully, when we got along, it was because I adopted a "christian" attitude or understanding and closed the door to my own non-theism (and anti-religiousness) and it was such a degrading feeling to do to myself. I stopped doing that, dulling myself, and they vanished. I'll let them stay away from me. But now I have to see them.

What am I doing?

graceandpeace · Aug 5, 2015

It sounds like they either don't respect you or are fearful of hearing your views. Maybe both.

Regardless, I think their behavior is typical of passive-aggressive evangelical tactics. I've experienced & witnessed this sort of thing before.

It's hard to advise how to approach conversations or possibly maintaining a relationship. If they bring up religion, politely tell them that they are free to believe what they want but you would prefer not to discuss religion with them. If they press, tell them you want to enjoy their company but that the religious discussions make you uncomfortable & you would prefer not to be part of them. If they don't listen after that, then you can decide what to do from there.

I don't think this means you should expect them to never talk about religion at all (I.e. Church activities they are part of), but only that the expectation is they won't try to personally question your beliefs if you have told them you don't want to discuss the matter.

For what it's worth, there are many good churches that don't encourage this sort of behavior.

GracetotheHumble · Aug 5, 2015

It's the old saying, "Birds of a feather flock together". Since you don't have anything in common with them you are truly not in their flock.

I'm sorry there is nothing that can remedy this situation other than you coming to faith in Christ.

ToBeLoved · Aug 5, 2015

I have a little different take on the situation.

First I would like to say that I have been in a similiar situation and it is hard when people change. My family changed (or three members of it) and it was so difficult. You always long for the way things use to be because you value that closeness and comfort that you use to have. That relationship that was so special and that you didn't have with anyone else. It was like that with me and my cousin. She never even believed in God until about 8 years ago. I always had faith, but never bothered her or made her feel any sort of way, but after she became Christian she joined this church (that is odd, more like a cult) and all of a sudden, everyone else who did not believe exactly like their denomination believed (and they are very small by Christian denominations) was going to hell. She went through each person and told them how they were going to hell unless they believed as she believed. Let's just say that did not go over well. So, I just want you to know I do understand.

What would I do in your situation? I would not make the family reunion the time to figure any of this out. It's not the right time and a crowd of people only adds to angst that many time people could handle in private.

I think bite the bullet at the reunion. That is for you to have a good time, as well as your family members who are religious, and the entire rest of the family. What I would do is try to stay away from them and if you do run into them know what you are going to say in advance. Even if mid conversation you say "Oh my gosh, I see cousin Gretchen, can I catch up with you later?" and dash off, that is better than having that ruin it. Or you might say "Let me think about that for a few weeks, I need to digest that all".

Then, I might communicate with them after the reunion through letters. Yes, letters can be old fashioned, but one thing about letters is that most people think about what they are writing more when putting it down on paper. Also, the person can begin a complete thought and follow the thought through without interruption with a letter. And another nice thing about a letter, is there is proof of what someone says. Right there in black and white. People can always say 'Oh I didn't say that' or 'You misunderstood' but with a letter it is all there and you can read it multiple times.

That is my advice to you. I hope things work out.

Troy Rambo · Aug 11, 2015

God gave you the freedom to believe what you want to believe. But He wants you to believe and trust Him. If you dont believe in Him, you will have to deal with the consequences of that decision. It sounds like your family problems is the result and consequence of your beliefs.

I suggest that you give Christianity a whirl. Seek the truth!

Here are some quotes from Morpheus of "The Matrix" that got me started:

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill -- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill -- you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."

"Let it all go Neo. Fear, doubt, and disbelief. Free your mind."

If you want your family back, seek the truth!

tonnerkiller · Aug 13, 2015

Troy Rambo said:
It sounds like your family problems is the result and consequence of your beliefs.

No, it's the result and consequence not so much of the belief but of the behaviour of his relatives.

GracetotheHumble said:
I'm sorry there is nothing that can remedy this situation other than you coming to faith in Christ.

No, not faith in Christ, that alone wouldn't help. It needs to be the exact interpretation the relatives share. Like when he becomes Lutheran and they are Baptist, that wouldn't help a bit.

That's why I said it's the behaviour. I see they are trying to win him for Jesus, but they are rude trying to do it (and they are arrogant, as it is God who grants faith, not people. They had done what they could do when they first told him of Jesus, everything more was unnecessary).

Troy Rambo · Aug 13, 2015

tonnerkiller said:
No, it's the result and consequence not so much of the belief but of the behaviour of his relatives.

No, not faith in Christ, that alone wouldn't help. It needs to be the exact interpretation the relatives share. Like when he becomes Lutheran and they are Baptist, that wouldn't help a bit.

That's why I said it's the behaviour. I see they are trying to win him for Jesus, but they are rude trying to do it (and they are arrogant, as it is God who grants faith, not people. They had done what they could do when they first told him of Jesus, everything more was unnecessary).

Youre wrong dude. Ive tried and tested this theory and I know for sure Im right. It took me way too long to figure this one out. If one wants their family back, turn back to God.

plummyy · Aug 13, 2015

Troy Rambo said:
Youre wrong dude. Ive tried and tested this theory and I know for sure Im right. It took me way too long to figure this one out. If one wants their family back, turn back to God.

Unfortunately for what you think you have figured out, one cannot pull belief in what they find unbelievable, out of a hat. Or would you like to claim Atheism and turn away from your god, in order to lie and satisfy anyone you know who is both Atheist and a distancing relative? I'm sure if you would ask me to lie about beliefs, you would have no issue doing the same---or do you already do that? Please don't suggest that lying is the best course of action.

Troy Rambo · Aug 13, 2015

plummyy said:
Unfortunately for what you think you have figured out, one cannot pull belief in what they find unbelievable, out of a hat. Or would you like to claim Atheism and turn away from your god, in order to lie and satisfy anyone you know who is both Atheist and a distancing relative? I'm sure if you would ask me to lie about beliefs, you would have no issue doing the same---or do you already do that? Please don't suggest that lying is the best course of action.

Im not sure where you got lying out of my comment, but since we're on that subject, let me explain how lying doesnt work:

I started lying and deceiving to cover up the mistakes I made in my life and to attempt to make my life better. But I realized that whoever I lied to, they knew I was lying. I wasnt even getting away with it. And then you realize that you are sinning against them and the Lord.

"For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open." Mark 4:22.

This is just one of the reasons you should obey Jesus' teachings; to save yourself from destroying your reputation.

tonnerkiller · Aug 13, 2015

Troy Rambo said:
Youre wrong dude. Ive tried and tested this theory and I know for sure Im right. It took me way too long to figure this one out. If one wants their family back, turn back to God.

There's no turning BACK if someone has never been there in the first place. What I say is the relatives don't let their love for him define the relationship, but what they thin they are to do to him as Christians. So they refuse a relationship only to push him into a direction they think he should be. Their brand of religion lets them not respect him as a person, but only as an object of their mission wishes. I think they suffer from this behaviour as well, but this doesn't make it better. If he became a Christian this wouldn't solve problems, because he would still be demanded to follow their religious rules, he would still not be respected as a person, and as this is the base of all real relationship, he won't get them back this way. he only way is if they find some form of belief or disbelief that lets them respect him as a person.

God bless
De Benny

ViaCrucis · Aug 13, 2015

tonnerkiller said:
There's no turning BACK if someone has never been there in the first place. What I say is the relatives don't let their love for him define the relationship, but what they thin they are to do to him as Christians. So they refuse a relationship only to push him into a direction they think he should be. Their brand of religion lets them not respect him as a person, but only as an object of their mission wishes. I think they suffer from this behaviour as well, but this doesn't make it better. If he became a Christian this wouldn't solve problems, because he would still be demanded to follow their religious rules, he would still not be respected as a person, and as this is the base of all real relationship, he won't get them back this way. he only way is if they find some form of belief or disbelief that lets them respect him as a person.

God bless
De Benny

This. Also what graceandpeace said.

The fact of the matter is that there are toxic forms of Christianity that encourage bad behavior--there's certainly a theological component, as in being told that you are personally responsible for the salvation of others. If you believe it is your job to convert people and your personal failure to make someone a Christian (the "right kind of Christian" of course) will hang on your head then it certainly encourages antagonistic behavior which is rightly off-putting to most people (it's off-putting to most Christians too).

It's not my job, or your job, or any person's job to convert people--conversion isn't something people do, it's something God does. Ours job is to be Christians, living out our faith in whatever vocation we find ourselves. If you're a ditch-digger than your job is to be a faithful ditch-digger. Not everyone is called to be an evangelist, and certainly some of the most damage done within the Church comes from people who simply do not understand how to preach the Gospel, probably because they have a really bad grasp on the Gospel themselves. What ordinary Christians can do is, if someone asks you about your faith, share, and if they aren't interested, respect it. That is what St. Peter teaches us in Scripture, "Have an answer to the hope that is in you, doing so with gentleness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15)

Bad theology + bad behavior = bad religion. Christians shouldn't try and defend bad religion, because it's bad and an offense to the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran

Troy Rambo · Aug 13, 2015

Well, let me clarify a few things. I dont know for sure that Im going to get my family back because Im now a true follower of Christ. But I do know its the very best place to start. I hope to get my family back, but if I dont, Im still going to believe and go to church. I now realize that my behavior was not optimum all these years as an unbeliever and now Im trying my hardest to behave Christ like. I stopped externalizing and started internalizing for the first time in my life. Thats why I think Christ is the best place to start trying to get your family back.

Troy Rambo · Aug 13, 2015

ViaCrucis said:
This. Also what graceandpeace said.

The fact of the matter is that there are toxic forms of Christianity that encourage bad behavior--there's certainly a theological component, as in being told that you are personally responsible for the salvation of others. If you believe it is your job to convert people and your personal failure to make someone a Christian (the "right kind of Christian" of course) will hang on your head then it certainly encourages antagonistic behavior which is rightly off-putting to most people (it's off-putting to most Christians too).

It's not my job, or your job, or any person's job to convert people--conversion isn't something people do, it's something God does. Ours job is to be Christians, living out our faith in whatever vocation we find ourselves. If you're a ditch-digger than your job is to be a faithful ditch-digger. Not everyone is called to be an evangelist, and certainly some of the most damage done within the Church comes from people who simply do not understand how to preach the Gospel, probably because they have a really bad grasp on the Gospel themselves. What ordinary Christians can do is, if someone asks you about your faith, share, and if they aren't interested, respect it. That is what St. Peter teaches us in Scripture, "Have an answer to the hope that is in you, doing so with gentleness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15)

Bad theology + bad behavior = bad religion. Christians shouldn't try and defend bad religion, because it's bad and an offense to the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran

I dont know dude. I mean whats more important in this world than saving a person's soul? I used to repair medical equipment at hospitals and I thought it was an important job. But now I know trying to convince people that Christ is truth is far more important.

ViaCrucis · Aug 13, 2015

Troy Rambo said:
I dont know dude. I mean whats more important in this world than saving a person's soul? I used to repair medical equipment at hospitals and I thought it was an important job. But now I know trying to convince people that Christ is truth is far more important.

You can't save a person's soul. That isn't your job. You also can't convince a people of the truth of Christ--these things are neither in your power or in your calling as a Christian.

Salvation is what Christ did when He was crucified and rose from the dead. Christ saves, we don't save anyone. Faith cannot be argued, faith is, as Scripture teaches in Ephesians 2:8-9, the gift of God, and according to Romans 10:17 received through hearing the Word of God (that is, the Gospel).

No one comes to Christ of their own volition, the will is broken and battered by sin and we need a Savior to save us--that's Jesus. Jesus is the One who jumps into our pit of sin, death, and despair to drag us out kicking and screaming the entire way. It is God who so graciously and kindly comes to meet us in our sin, in the Person of Jesus, to rescue us, to save us. And He does this through the preaching of the Gospel. And preaching the Gospel is not arguing a person to faith, it is simply to state what Christ has done. It is God who acts, God who converts.

Further, Scripture is clear that not everyone is called to be a pastor, not everyone is called to be an evangelist, not everyone is called to be a teacher. There are many gifts and callings in the Church. If your calling is to repair medical equipment then that is your holy vocation before God, your job then is to do the best job you can; believe the good news, try to do good works, be a Christian who works repairing medical equipment. For Christians if you are a husband be a good husband, if you are a wife, be a good wife, if you are a father, be a good father, if you are a mother be a good mother, if you are a child be a good child, if you are a sibling be a good sibling, if you install cable then be good at installing cable, if you dig ditches then be good at digging ditches, if you are a doctor be a good doctor, if you are a burger-flipper be a good burger-flipper. If in all these things if you are asked about the hope that is in you as a Christian, share that hope--with gentleness and respect.

If you are specifically called to be an evangelist then receive the proper training so that you are a good evangelist. But being a good evangelist still doesn't mean converting people or bringing people to Christ, you don't do that, God does that. And God can do that whether you are a called evangelist or if you flip burgers at McDonalds. Because it's God's work, not your work.

-CryptoLutheran

ToBeLoved · Aug 13, 2015

ViaCrucis said:
"Have an answer to the hope that is in you, doing so with gentleness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15)

Bad theology + bad behavior = bad religion. Christians shouldn't try and defend bad religion, because it's bad and an offense to the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen!

ToBeLoved · Aug 13, 2015

Troy Rambo said:
I dont know dude. I mean whats more important in this world than saving a person's soul? I used to repair medical equipment at hospitals and I thought it was an important job. But now I know trying to convince people that Christ is truth is far more important.

Being judgemental and overbearing is not how one wins souls. Some people have bad, disgusting, judgemental behavior. God doesn't withhold love only to Christians. God so loved the world. When Christians SHARE the gospel (Jesus died for the sins of the world and we all need a Savior from sin) they do Jesus will.

Jesus loves the unsaved. That's why he wants them to become saved.

Bad behavior or conditional love based upon someone doing what they want them to do is childish. Let's follow Jesus' example and do as our Lord did.

Troy Rambo · Aug 13, 2015

ViaCrucis said:
You can't save a person's soul. That isn't your job. You also can't convince a people of the truth of Christ--these things are neither in your power or in your calling as a Christian.

Salvation is what Christ did when He was crucified and rose from the dead. Christ saves, we don't save anyone. Faith cannot be argued, faith is, as Scripture teaches in Ephesians 2:8-9, the gift of God, and according to Romans 10:17 received through hearing the Word of God (that is, the Gospel).

No one comes to Christ of their own volition, the will is broken and battered by sin and we need a Savior to save us--that's Jesus. Jesus is the One who jumps into our pit of sin, death, and despair to drag us out kicking and screaming the entire way. It is God who so graciously and kindly comes to meet us in our sin, in the Person of Jesus, to rescue us, to save us. And He does this through the preaching of the Gospel. And preaching the Gospel is not arguing a person to faith, it is simply to state what Christ has done. It is God who acts, God who converts.

Further, Scripture is clear that not everyone is called to be a pastor, not everyone is called to be an evangelist, not everyone is called to be a teacher. There are many gifts and callings in the Church. If your calling is to repair medical equipment then that is your holy vocation before God, your job then is to do the best job you can; believe the good news, try to do good works, be a Christian who works repairing medical equipment. For Christians if you are a husband be a good husband, if you are a wife, be a good wife, if you are a father, be a good father, if you are a mother be a good mother, if you are a child be a good child, if you are a sibling be a good sibling, if you install cable then be good at installing cable, if you dig ditches then be good at digging ditches, if you are a doctor be a good doctor, if you are a burger-flipper be a good burger-flipper. If in all these things if you are asked about the hope that is in you as a Christian, share that hope--with gentleness and respect.

If you are specifically called to be an evangelist then receive the proper training so that you are a good evangelist. But being a good evangelist still doesn't mean converting people or bringing people to Christ, you don't do that, God does that. And God can do that whether you are a called evangelist or if you flip burgers at McDonalds. Because it's God's work, not your work.

-CryptoLutheran

Youre right I cant save a person's soul as Jesus has. That sort of came out wrong but you get the idea. But I can try to convince people that He is truth, and right now Im doing it by sharing my stories. Im going to school for Christian Counseling. Now what would a Christian Counselor do besides help people to know about Christ?

ViaCrucis · Aug 13, 2015

Troy Rambo said:
Now what would a Christian Counselor do besides help people to know about Christ?

Be a good counselor. Help people with their problems with loving compassion, with mercy, grace, and kindness. That is what a counselor that is a Christian ought to do--be a good counselor. Your job as a counselor wouldn't be to try and convince people to become Christian--because again you, me, nobody can do that. It is not our job as Christians to make other people Christians, to make other people "get saved". Salvation, again, is what Christ has already done for everyone.

So if you become a counselor, be a good counselor.

An excellent (IMO) quote from Martin Luther concerning the issue of Christian vocation is as follows:

"The Christian shoemaker does his duty not by putting little crosses on the shoes, but by making good shoes, because God is interested in good craftsmanship."

So following, a Christian counselor does his or her Christian duty by doing his or her job to the best of his or her ability.

-CryptoLutheran

plummyy · Aug 13, 2015

Troy Rambo said:
Im not sure where you got lying out of my comment, but since we're on that subject, let me explain how lying doesnt work:

I started lying and deceiving to cover up the mistakes I made in my life and to attempt to make my life better. But I realized that whoever I lied to, they knew I was lying. I wasnt even getting away with it. And then you realize that you are sinning against them and the Lord.

"For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open." Mark 4:22.

This is just one of the reasons you should obey Jesus' teachings; to save yourself from destroying your reputation.

My question was asking how I can be in the same room with people who are more-than-in-disagreement with my views on their religion. How might a non-believer and yourself get along? How might that non-believer talk to you, and how might you talk to that non-believer? Think about how your opinion might be useful to me, and then perhaps come to a conclusion for why I am asking religious folk and not someone like myself. I don't understand religious people, as I am not one. I am not religious because because I do not believe in your (any) religion, and doing so by 'giving it a try' would not be genuine. Perhaps the situation would be easier if I was suddenly in full swing of their same beliefs, of if they found themselves out to be a-theists, but that is unrealistic for myself and for my relatives. It's quite impossible to not believe in what you believe in. Doing so would be dishonest to yourself and to those you wanted to convince. And as some other respndants ahve helpfully noted, it is not all a matter of who-believes-what.

I am happy that you are on a path that makes you feel better about yourself, but I don't think that my post was shy in explaining that they are causing the problems. I don't say that out of stubbornness to realize my own faults. I don't fully blame their religion, and I certainly don't blame my lack-there-of. I will have to see them in the company of other people, and as much as I would treat them as a distancing friend (accept the distance and move on) I physically can't do that. I would, however, like advisory on how I might possibly communicate with them---if you are willing to take me seriously, then please feel free to contribute your helpful advice. I have had enough lame (weak, tired, exasperated, ill-thought) conversion therapy from these very relatives, and as I will say time and time again: believing in something is not like trying out a new ice cream flavor, and suggesting that belief is that easy, cheapens yourself and your beliefs to something that can be picked up in the frozen-food isle. I am not at odds with your god or your religion because I simply do not believe in it. I am not lying to myself when I say that I do not believe in or condone religion---I am saying this, because it's what I think is true. And i would ask that you not tell me that I should "return" to something that I have never, ever, understood as being true, because it is impossible to do that. I don't care if you were an 'atheist' who came to an epiphany about your god, and I did not ask for your experience in conversion. This post was not about conversion, not for myself or them. If you think this was an open door for you to throw Mark, Peter, and Paul at my face, I am sorry but you misinterpreted what I was asking. I truly and simply needed a religious person's opinion on what is going on in my life involving these relatives, and how I can understand what is going on a little bit better. Telling me that I can solve these problems by *somehow* changing my beliefs, does not in fact solve any problem, because this about the real world and not the rhetoric.

plummyy · Aug 13, 2015

tonnerkiller said:
There's no turning BACK if someone has never been there in the first place. What I say is the relatives don't let their love for him define the relationship, but what they thin they are to do to him as Christians. So they refuse a relationship only to push him into a direction they think he should be. Their brand of religion lets them not respect him as a person, but only as an object of their mission wishes. I think they suffer from this behaviour as well, but this doesn't make it better. If he became a Christian this wouldn't solve problems, because he would still be demanded to follow their religious rules, he would still not be respected as a person, and as this is the base of all real relationship, he won't get them back this way. he only way is if they find some form of belief or disbelief that lets them respect him as a person.

God bless
De Benny

Thank you, this was helpful.

I'm not sure how to handle this

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