patricius79
Called to Jesus Through Mary
True. It was simply "the Catholic Church", with Rome presiding in love, and believing that Mary is the Ever-Virgin New Eve.
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Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?
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True. It was simply "the Catholic Church", with Rome presiding in love, and believing that Mary is the Ever-Virgin New Eve.
Standing Up
On and on
Evidently the Sardica council canons are "attached" to Nice canons and some confuse that the two are identical, but they are not.
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Whether Mary remained a virgin or not doesn't affect salvation, so it is an interesting point. Maybe when I read through those passages in the Eastern Orthodox study bible that I picked up, I'll find something useful regarding this.
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justinangel
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Christ never intended it to be denominational. That's why it still isn't. The Protestant denominations are not different branches of faith in the one Apostolic Catholic Church. They are independent separated churches which were founded by men. The Fathers of the ecumenical councils did not regard the Arian and Nestorian churches to be branches or descendants of the Catholic Church, but castaways who suffered a shipwreck of the faith.
Peter's profession of faith was infallible. Upon this rock Christ shall build his Church. This is what the nascent church understood. What is written in the NT certifies this traditional belief. The letters of Clement and Ignatius show that the primacy of Peter was conferred on the Bishop of Rome.
“You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force”
Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans 3:1 (c. A.D. 110)
It's just as difficult to establish a theological trajectory for papal infallibility in the first millennium as it is the defined Trinitarian and Christological doctrines of the Church in the first few centuries. However, the writings of the Church Fathers and the declarations of the Fathers of the ecumenical councils express the conviction that the Bishop of Rome did not err in his pronouncements when he acted in a universal capacity to confirm and definitively establish essential matters of faith to resolve doctrinal differences in the eastern churches.
There were different ecclesiastical practices and disciplines between the churches - but one Apostolic Faith. The ecumenical councils were convoked to preserve a unity of faith. The early centuries was a time of doctrinal controversies which arose mainly in the East. The See of Rome was as it were a court of appeal for orthodox eastern bishops. The definitions of the faith set by the councils had to conform to the doctrines of the Church at Rome
Now at this point, I'd suggest you stop trying to convert me to your church. I, in turn, will not spend post after post lecturing you on the Anglican view of all things, complete with everything that is unrelated to our topic here.
The Definition of the Faith
To these it has suitably added, against false believers and for the establishment of orthodox doctrines
the letter of the primate of greatest and older Rome,
the most blessed and most saintly Archbishop Leo, written to the sainted Archbishop Flavian to put down Eutyches's evil-mindedness, because it is in agreement with great Peter's confession and represents a support we have in common.
It is opposed to those who attempt to tear apart the mystery of the economy into a duality of sons; and
- it expels from the assembly of the priests those who dare to say that the divinity of the Only-begotten is passible, and
- it stands opposed to those who imagine a mixture or confusion between the two natures of Christ; and
- it expels those who have the mad idea that the servant-form he took from us is of a heavenly or some other kind of being; and
- it anathematises those who concoct two natures of the Lord before the union but imagine a single one after the union.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3604028.htm
I wouldn't try the impossible. When the PVM becomes an issue for debate, we somehow can't avoid the question of teaching authority. It usually begins with Protestants who reject the ancient tradition of the Church and the teachings of the Church Fathers.
PAX
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patricius79
Called to Jesus Through Mary
That sounds good. I think that the Marian doctrines, including Mary's Ever-Virginity, are matters of salvation. However, if a person is not sufficiently informed or free, then they have an excuse.
If I remember right, the 7th Ecumenical Council anathemized anyone who said that Mary is not Ever-Virgin.
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patricius79
Called to Jesus Through Mary
Oh yes, that's what you've been taught by your denomination to say when representing it to others. But I've heard it all before...and from quite a few different denominations, in fact.
But Protestantism began in the 1500s, while the Catholic Church is from the beginning, and has always believed that Mary is Ever-Virgin.
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Tut, tut. Here you go again, making the vain claim that your church "has always believed" this. Thus far you have not provided any proof to this claim. I suggest that you either show us definitive proof from those who were eye-witnesses to the bedroom life of Joseph and Mary or cease making these embarrassing statements about the marital relationship of Joseph and Mary.
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Indeed we are. Thus I find it disgusting to have anyone speculate on the bedroom life of my own parents. However, there are those who are fascinated with the sex life (or lack thereof) of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.
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patricius79
Called to Jesus Through Mary
The Catholic Church, founded by her Son, is awed by the purity and virginity of the New Eve, the Mother of Life.
Just as we know that the New Adam was pure and virginal, we know the same about the New Eve.
And we know this by the same means as we know which books are in the N.T. Through spiritual authority of the Catholic Church.
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justinangel
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Ignatius of Antioch (c. A.D. 110) is the first Church Father to refer to Mary's virginity (as "hidden from the prince of this world") in his Letter to the Ephesians, which I quoted above. Being a disciple of the apostle John, he didn't have to believe but knew the mother of our Lord remained a virgin.
By the way, the Church has always believed that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. How do you prove this claim? The Bible? There was no NT in the first century, but only the oral Tradition and a reinterpretation of the OT. Neither can you prove that the Christian Bible is the inspired written word of God. Accepting this is simply a matter of faith and placing one's trust in the Catholic Church's declaration.
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Berean777
Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
She was reserved to do the will of God and not man.
She was reserved to God's will and purpose and was kept from much of the wife's functions outside of that one and only function of bearing the hope of the world in her womb.
She forever remains God's handmaiden. Blessed is the womb that brought forth the hope for all of humanity.
She was reserved to God's will and purpose and was kept from much of the wife's functions outside of that one and only function of bearing the hope of the world in her womb.
She forever remains God's handmaiden. Blessed is the womb that brought forth the hope for all of humanity.
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justinangel
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"From the day I was brought here till now, your handmaiden has had no joy except in you, Lord, God of Abraham."
Esther 4 (C), 29
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justinangel
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1 John?
"Now the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also (the divinity of) her offspring, and the death of the Lord; three mysteries of renown, which were wrought in silence by God."
Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians 19:1 [c.a. A.D. 110]
"Again, there are those who say, He is a man, and who shall know him? and, I came unto the prophetess, and she bore a son, and His name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God; and those [of them] who proclaimed Him as Immanuel, [born] of the Virgin, exhibited the union of the Word of God with His own workmanship, [declaring] that the Word should become flesh, and the Son of God the Son of man (the pure One opening purely that pure womb which regenerates men unto God, and which He Himself made pure); and having become this which we also are, He [nevertheless] is the Mighty God, and possesses a generation which cannot be declared."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33.11 [A.D. 180-189]
"Now those who say so wish to preserve the honour of Mary in virginity to the end, so that that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word which said, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee," might not know intercourse with a man after that the Holy Ghost came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first-fruit among men of the purity which consists in chastity, and Mary among women; for it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first-fruit of virginity."
Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Book 10, Chapter 17 [A.D. 246-248]
"They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs."
Peter of Alexandria, The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]
"Let us not be ignorant of the glory of chastity: for its crown is angelic, and its excellence above man. Let us be chary of our bodies which are to shine as the sun: let us not for short pleasure defile so great, so noble a body: for short and momentary is the sin, but the shame for many years and for ever. Angels walking upon earth are they who practise chastity: the Virgins have their portion with Mary the Virgin."
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 12 [A.D. 347-348]
"Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh
of Mary Ever-Virgin."
Athanasius, Against the Arians, Discourse 2, Chapter 70 [A.D. 360]
"We believe in . . . one Lord Jesus Christ . . . who . . . was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit."
Epiphanius of Salamis, The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]
"Helvidius produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he Victorinus spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. By discussing such things we are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man."
Jerome, Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]
"It helps us to understand the terms `first-born' and `only-begotten' when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin `until she brought forth her first-born son'; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin".
Didymus, The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]
"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children, nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son".
Ambrose of Milan, Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]
"You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord's body, that court of the eternal king."
Pope Siricius I, Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]
"Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband".
Augustine, Heresies 56 [A.D.428]
"The Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her child-bearing."
Cyril of Alexandria, Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God [A.D. 430]
What was that you said?
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patricius79
Called to Jesus Through Mary
Yes, but I beleive it because I don't live in the first century and DO have a copy of God's word.
But God's word says to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter. And how do we know which books are in the N.T., except by the authority of the Catholic Church, which proclaims that the Mother of God is Ever-Virgin?
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Albion
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Name some of the ones referred to in that verse and we'll discuss.
Otherwise, your verse does not apply to what we've been discussing.
By the way also, the question asked was about the Resurrection of Christ. I hope you don't think that we believe this only because it's legendary.
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