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The Cadet

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Don't do that man! If you are truly looking for God, he will reveal himself to you. Read the bible every day and pray before and after.

Why? Not only is reading the bible something that drove a great many believers to abandon their beliefs, but more importantly you've given me absolutely no reason to do this. This is something that requires a lot of effort, time, and thought, and that's time I could just as easily spend rebuilding Hyrule Temple in minecraft, or learning more about the world around me, or getting ripped (just kidding, I'm lazy :p ). Indeed, what you've just described to me seems less like a way to get to know someone and more a way of brainwashing oneself into believing something.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Why? Not only is reading the bible something that drove a great many believers to abandon their beliefs, but more importantly you've given me absolutely no reason to do this. This is something that requires a lot of effort, time, and thought, and that's time I could just as easily spend rebuilding Hyrule Temple in minecraft, or learning more about the world around me, or getting ripped (just kidding, I'm lazy :p ). Indeed, what you've just described to me seems less like a way to get to know someone and more a way of brainwashing oneself into believing something.

Becoming intimately familiar with any enterprise brings understanding. I have been a deer hunter for many years but still learn more about them every season.

The bible is like one of those brain teaser images that just look like a confusion of lines and colors, until you stare at it for a few moments, when it 'magically' changes into a beautiful picture. But you gotta put in the required minutes of staring (which downloads the image to your mind, which in turn finally makes sense out of it).
 
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Winken

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Why? Not only is reading the bible something that drove a great many believers to abandon their beliefs, but more importantly you've given me absolutely no reason to do this. This is something that requires a lot of effort, time, and thought, and that's time I could just as easily spend rebuilding Hyrule Temple in minecraft, or learning more about the world around me, or getting ripped (just kidding, I'm lazy :p ). Indeed, what you've just described to me seems less like a way to get to know someone and more a way of brainwashing oneself into believing something.

Knowing HOW to read the Bible, discerning its truths, is a Spiritual matter. No Spirit, no time. Counterfeit Christians and non-Christians just don't get it. However, the Gospel, the Good News, is there for everyone. Here is the formula:

John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 3:3, John 5:24, Romans 10:8-13, then Ephesians 2:8-9.

EZ read, providing the path to Spiritual insight and eternal security. Once I got that, I couldn't put the Bible down. My home and car radios were permanently changed to a Christian station. Everything outside of God, like HBO, Cinemax, profoundly disgusting sitcoms and motion pictures, gone forever. Assembling with others in messages and songs became a delight.

Check out the formula............
 
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DogmaHunter

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Why do bad things happen to good people?

For the same reason that:
- good things happen to good people
- bad things happen to bad people
- good things happen to bad people.

And the answer is.... there is no reason.
Things happen independently of consequences.

The lottery numbers aren't steered to make a bad (or good) person win the lottery.
Cancer cells don't decide to develop in a human because that human's other half is a good (or bad) person.
Volcano's don't explode because the city 20 miles south exists or because of the people that live in that city.

Things just happen. And sometimes they affect people.
This effect can be positive or negative and those people can be good or bad people.

So... yeah.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You get it right.

Now to your question: it insinuates that we were created to fail. We weren't. We failed by our own choice or the choice of the first created couple. We are just living the consequences. Not God's fault but ours. God is good and just. We are fallen and corrupted.

"good and just" isn't really compatible with the idea that off spring should be responsible for the wrong-doings of parents.

He didn't create a set of rules that we can't live up to. He create them to show the abundance of grace and love, not to challenge.

There is no grace and love in eternal torture.
There is no grace and love in punishing off spring for the wrong doings of ancestors.
There is no grace and love in punishing a scapegoat for the wrong doings of others.
There is no grace and love in rewarding gullibility and punishing rational thinking.

Remember Christ lived on the earth exactly to show us that.

In context of the story, Christ's purpose is to serve as loophole in a system this god created in which every human was doomed to eternal punishment because of rules that same god created.

So, the "solution" was to "sacrifice" himself to himself, to save humans from himself as a loophole for a system he created. And, not to forget, the situation also only existed because he felt it was "just" to doom all humans for the wrong doings of only 2 of them. Not to mention that at the time of the "wrong doing", these 2 people were unable to differentiate right from wrong. Meaning that they didn't even realise that what they were doing was wrong. And why was this so? Because this "just and loving" god didn't give them that ability.

So, really, the entire thing is his fault and responsability.
Yes, he most certainly DID set humans up for failure. And in quite insane ways as well.

For the record, off course, I don't believe any of this for a second. I'm just taking the story and evaluating the ethical implications.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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"good and just" isn't really compatible with the idea that off spring should be responsible for the wrong-doings of parents.



There is no grace and love in eternal torture.
There is no grace and love in punishing off spring for the wrong doings of ancestors.
There is no grace and love in punishing a scapegoat for the wrong doings of others.
There is no grace and love in rewarding gullibility and punishing rational thinking.



In context of the story, Christ's purpose is to serve as loophole in a system this god created in which every human was doomed to eternal punishment because of rules that same god created.

So, the "solution" was to "sacrifice" himself to himself, to save humans from himself as a loophole for a system he created. And, not to forget, the situation also only existed because he felt it was "just" to doom all humans for the wrong doings of only 2 of them. Not to mention that at the time of the "wrong doing", these 2 people were unable to differentiate right from wrong. Meaning that they didn't even realise that what they were doing was wrong. And why was this so? Because this "just and loving" god didn't give them that ability.

So, really, the entire thing is his fault and responsability.
Yes, he most certainly DID set humans up for failure. And in quite insane ways as well.

For the record, off course, I don't believe any of this for a second. I'm just taking the story and evaluating the ethical implications.

You can't properly 'evaluate' anything unless you have all the available information, and then deal honestly with it.
 
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SuperCloud

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Why do bad things happen to good people?

Be careful when answering this question. It's a minefield by the way.

I would like to hear your reasoning.

Another way to ask that question is why does being a US Marine, SEAL, or Army Ranger come with so much suffering? How could that suffering--whilst you're going through it--possibly have any paradoxical good come out of it?

Children going to school or being given homework often feel the same way.

The Marine Corps has this maxim they like to say--within the culture of the Corps, but they extend it to all of life outside of the Corps. Now, I forget the exact word for word saying but it goes something like this: struggle (suffering) builds character.

Listen, I'm not the most disciplined person on earth. And I've spent a fair amount of my life trying to find short cuts or the easiest route. Not that there is anything wrong with working smarter or more efficiently. Hard work in and of itself can be over glamorized. Wage slaves and chattel slaves work hard for instance. But the hard truth I've learned in my life is this: generally to get better, to get stronger, to get wiser or smarter requires going through the crucible of pain. I've found for myself that there is really no other way around this.

Sure, you can join an easy boxing gym or an easy American football team. Little to no cardio workout required. Coaches never push you. But as a rule of thumb the champs are pushed to limits. We may not--at the time of passing through the grueling crucible--understand why our coach, our mentor, our high school teacher, our troop handlers in infantry courses are pushing us so hard. We may well curse them in the process. I have.

But then when we pass on the other side and see ourselves better conditioned, superior in endurance and skills than our opponents, we look to the heavens and thank our coach, our mentor, our high school teacher, our infantry school troop handlers for every minute of hell they put us through. Semper Fi.








I was in boot camp when Mike Tyson was knocked out. That night while laying at attention in the rack, before being giving the command to sleep, the DI confirmed the rumor that the invincible Mike Tyson had been defeated. I could not believe it.

So, it remains a mystery to me “why” all these bad things happen to seemingly good people, even innocent children. But all I can do—or so I choose to do—is keep faith in God that as the great coach in the sky he leads all his pupils to final victory. So, I’ve got a “why” as to why I pray to Jesus.
 
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Chicken Little

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well I will answer it with three more questions of equal importance for constructing a true observation! ( anything less is probably intellectually dishonest)
why does good things happen to bad people?
why does bad things happen to bad people ?
and why does good things happen to good people?

the answer : Bounty happens now clean it up>
 
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Winken

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You get it right.

Now to your question: it insinuates that we were created to fail. We weren't. We failed by our own choice or the choice of the first created couple. We are just living the consequences. Not God's fault but ours. God is good and just. We are fallen and corrupted.

He didn't create a set of rules that we can't live up to. He create them to show the abundance of grace and love, not to challenge.

Remember Christ lived on the earth exactly to show us that.

The short answer is always the best one.
 
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Natural You

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Why do bad things happen to good people?

Be careful when answering this question. It's a minefield by the way.

I would like to hear your reasoning.

God's Word says it can be different reasons in different situations. Sometimes it is God allowing things to happen to purify his children and teach us so we will grow. Other times it is because we did something that caused the bad thing to happen. God never said he would protect us from our own foolishness. God gave us a free will.

Example: A man chooses to drink until he is drunk. He gets into the car and drives toward home. An accident happens because his reactions are badly effected and he gets seriously injured. Was this God's doing? God gave us a free will to choose good over evil, obeying his laws or disobeying, and following his guidance or acting on our desires. He gave us the guidelines to live a pure life. We choose to follow his laws or not.

So we may not know which situation we are in unless we stop and honestly look at what we have done, said, and felt. God knows what is in our hearts even if we don't say it or act on it. Remember He said, To lust after a woman is the same as committing adultery. That is a mental act, not a physical one. A person may appear to be a saint when his heart and mind may not be so pure. We cannot judge but God can.

Mary @ Natural You
 
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Strathos

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Matthew 5:45 said:
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You can't properly 'evaluate' anything unless you have all the available information, and then deal honestly with it.

I read the bible. What other information is there?

Or is this going to be one of those "you don't agree with my belief about this text so therefor you must have not understood it correctly"?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I read the bible. What other information is there?

There's secular sources that provide historical context.

Or is this going to be one of those "you don't agree with my belief about this text so therefor you must have not understood it correctly"?

I'm saying that someone who believes it probably knows it better than someone who doesn't.
 
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DogmaHunter

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There's secular sources that provide historical context.

And what makes you think I'm unaware of such sources?

It wouldn't be the fact that I don't believe it, by any chance, would it?

I'm saying that someone who believes it probably knows it better than someone who doesn't.

Why?

My nephew believes in Santa Claus. Do you think he knows more about Santa then I do?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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And what makes you think I'm unaware of such sources?

It wouldn't be the fact that I don't believe it, by any chance, would it?



Why?

My nephew believes in Santa Claus. Do you think he knows more about Santa then I do?

The "it" we're discussing isn't Santa Claus.
 
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BabylonWeary

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Why? Not only is reading the bible something that drove a great many believers to abandon their beliefs, but more importantly you've given me absolutely no reason to do this. This is something that requires a lot of effort, time, and thought, and that's time I could just as easily spend rebuilding Hyrule Temple in minecraft, or learning more about the world around me, or getting ripped (just kidding, I'm lazy :p ). Indeed, what you've just described to me seems less like a way to get to know someone and more a way of brainwashing oneself into believing something.

Reading the Bible... you're more likely to abandon the beliefs of others than to abandon your own.

Becoming intimately familiar with any enterprise brings understanding. I have been a deer hunter for many years but still learn more about them every season.

The bible is like one of those brain teaser images that just look like a confusion of lines and colors, until you stare at it for a few moments, when it 'magically' changes into a beautiful picture. But you gotta put in the required minutes of staring (which downloads the image to your mind, which in turn finally makes sense out of it).

I think that is depth of field, requires two eyes to judge the distance, but with certain images and patterns that can overlap the effect is an optical illusion where the true distance from the eyes is misjudged, like to go cross-eyed. You can do this with your computer keyboard right now, just look down at it and then let your vision go fuzzy for a second, then cross your eyes as if to look towards the tip of your nose, when you refocus on the keyboard it'll kind of snap into view at each point where each eye's perception of the keys can overlap. Don't do it too much. It's not really good for your vision. It is something to consider, though. Suppose all the Bible was written in block letters without verse numbers or punctuation, what sort of messages one might get from it with all scrambled cross-eyed vision. Bible codes are something like that, using computers to scan for words according to sequences of letters spaced apart. That could just be random, though. It's difficult to say if there's any divine revelation from it.
 
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DogmaHunter

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The "it" we're discussing isn't Santa Claus.

Which is irrelevant. You made a general statement.

Being that people who believe something, know more about that something then those who don't believe it.

This general statement is obviously demonstrably false.

Let's cut to the chase here....

Do you agree that it is (at least) possible that someone has a very good understanding of the bible and judeo-christian history and culture while also NOT being a christian? Or even a theist at all?

I'm not saying that I am such a person.
I'm asking the general question, because your posts suggest that you consider this to be impossible.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Which is irrelevant. You made a general statement.

My statement concerned understanding of what the bible teaches us.

Which is irrelevant. You made a general statement.

Being that people who believe something, know more about that something then those who don't believe it.

That's not what I said.

This general statement is obviously demonstrably false.

Sure, but my statement was made in the context of biblical understanding.

Let's cut to the chase here....
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Do you agree that it is (at least) possible that someone has a very good understanding of the bible and judeo-christian history and culture while also NOT being a christian? Or even a theist at all?

I'm not saying that I am such a person.
I'm asking the general question, because your posts suggest that you consider this to be impossible.

Certainly, but not to the extent that a well-studied believer has. The bible confers understanding to it's believers that unbelievers just don't get. One being that there is a moral aspect to everything we do.
 
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