Cheap Grace

Open Heart said:

The verse simply means that grace is unearned. It does NOT say that we don't respond with good works.

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oh come on, lets read it again, it is totally clear..

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Open Heart said:

It just means your analogy doesn't apply.

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sure it does, of the cake was not boiled, but just baked, it was baked alone.

besides, when are you going to respond about the verse when we read it without the APART WORD?

Open Heart said:

What do you mean no washings? or no Yom Kippur? Lulav and I don't agree on everything, but you already knew that.

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they are defiled..Lulav said so.

Open Heart said:

For starters, I repented. I have also obediently been baptized, which is commanded of us if it is possible. I have professed that Jesus is Lord. All of those are works that I do, with God's help. E.g. God does not repent for me.

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but I mean what works..you know what the frog seeks here, thanks!

Open Heart said:

I *did* respond. I said you can't remove a word from scripture (just like you can't add one).

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but leaving it proves the same thing, apart FROM WORKS...

so either way, I am right with the verse

Open Heart said:

I *did* respond. I said you can't remove a word from scripture (just like you can't add one).

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if I bake a cake, and it is apart from whip cream, it is cake alone!

Open Heart said:

• Repentance is indeed a work. It's something that I do. God doesn't repent for me.
• Baptism is required by scripture unless it is impossible to do so. It is part of initial justification.
• Eucharist give grace for the journey; it is part of ongoing justification (sanctification)
• But the most significant work you do is repentance.

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Uh-huh. I give up.

Open Heart said:

sorry, I don't believe OSAS; my case proves it is not true.

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You don't need to be sorry. You are just living in a legalistic manner. The Catholic religion promotes "sacraments" which are works required for salvation. They have people by the short hairs, as it were. The problem with not believing salvation is once for eternity is that you have absolutely no idea if you will be saved until judgement day. That puts you in an awkward situation because now you must do all that you think you can or must in hopes it will be enough for you to make it, unless of course you believe you are automatically "in" if you are a "good" Catholic. That was the mindset years ago when I attended that church. Anyway, best of luck to you in working to get in.

Open Heart said:

What do you mean no washings? or no Yom Kippur? Lulav and I don't agree on everything, but you already knew that.

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Frogster said:

they are defiled..Lulav said so.

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Open Heart said:

I have no idea what you are talking about. 1. I disagree with Lulav all the time, so don't bother using her as an authority with me. 2. I get so much mail, that I only look at those posts which come up in my ALERT. I have not read this interchange between you and Lulav. You'll have to explain.

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He is referring to a post about a month ago under his hard to buy clothes under the law thread, start at that link and read on, you were part of the conversation, and basically did agree with me but he is using it in a twisted manner saying you have to do all 613 laws or if you don't you've broken the law. The sophistry abounds there as in other places.

This is frogsters understanding

The Temple doesn't exist
You can't keep the laws regarding the temple
Therefore you have broken all the law

Open Heart said:

The analogy doesn't work. Using your analogies line reason, you would have to conclude that faith apart from works is still faith. That's not what the verse is saying. And just as an aside the idea that faith apart from works is still faith would still contradict James at face value. Faith "apart" from works is still dead (not faith at all). All in all, your analogy is blown out of the water.

I still believe the context (with James) is that faith apart from works "alone" justifies you. Otherwise you have Paul and James contradicting each other -- a no no.

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How do you know if you are doing the works you should be doing to be saved?

Open Heart said:

But this is scriptural. It's supposed to feel awkward. It's why the Bible says things like work out your salvation with fear and trembling. It's not just Catholics who don't accept OSAS, you know. Protestantism is divided up over this.

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It isn't at all Scriptural, it is your misunderstanding of Scripture. Further, salvation is not supposed to feel at all awkward.

I know I am saved and John confirms this.
1 John 5
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.