Biblical Creationism and Self Deceit

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paulm50

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My God, the One True God is the God of creation. He doesn't adhere to your demands of proof. He is the God of all... universe, man, reason, logic and SCIENCE. He doesn't have to explain Himself any more than He has. Therefore, we as His believers don't have to do any more than point you back to the scripture you've been so critical of. What you are missing is that God DOES NOT adhere to our scientific laws!! He created them! He could as easily move a solar system as you could your car keys. To ask "did God create our planet before He did the Sun" is to ask did God have the POWER to do that?

That sir, is a question you must ask yourself. I hope that the people that have responded to you in this thread have given you a reasonable answer. The rest is between you and He.
A blind faith believer, is dangerous. Look at all those who refuse to question the word of priests as they do evil on command.

To ask "did God create our planet before He did the Sun" is to ask did God have the POWER to do that? And to take the word of a priest,is to deny your creator. He created you to think for yourself, not to be sheep.

You will never change, you have chosen to follow men who tell you not to think. I'm posting to warn others.

Unless science backs up what's written in the bible, we have to ask. Who really wrote the bible. Men claiming god told them what to write, or men writing what god was telling them. The last one causes another question, did god tell them the truth?

We know the sun came before the Earth, so why wouldn't god do it that way or say that was how it was? The truth is in the original writing, it wasn't a sun and moon and the Universe. It was luminaries and twinkling lights in the sky. Even the day and night wasn't explained properly, it was people talking as if it was a flat Earth with the creation of day and night, not the orbiting of the Earth.

And so it goes on, mistake after mistake. What we do know is men have rewritten the bible. Men at the top of the religious hierarchy, relying on people who never question them, not any god.
 
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single eye

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The Bible warns of self deception.

"We live in a world full of lies, and deceit comes from many sources. There are lying spirits who lead astray (1 Timothy 4:1); there are “evildoers and impostors” looking for dupes (2 Timothy 3:13); and, perhaps most insidious, we have ourselves to deal with. Self-deception is common in our fallen world. Our own hearts are deceitful—so much so that we easily fool ourselves (Jeremiah 17:9).Isaiah 44:20speaks of an idolater who is misled by his own “deluded heart.” The prophet Obadiah identifies arrogance as one of the roots of self-deception: “The pride of your heart has deceived you” (Obadiah 1:3). Human pride always blinds us to truth. It promises honor, but it delivers disgrace: “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall” (Proverbs 16:18)".
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-self-deception.html#ixzz3eIxT19EA

Yet there are many Christians who on prideful faith accept the idea that Genesis is the literal account of how Creation took place. And they believe a group of lying imposters of science claiming that this is true. All while they fail to confirm for themselves if they are being told the truth. They choose instead to see themselves as the persecuted people against the world while refusing to check it out themselves. And when they are shown to be wrong they close their eyes refusing to even see the evidence proving them wrong when it is right in front of them. They fail to recognize their own pride they have taken in their beliefs. They continue to argue on trying to punch holes in scientific facts while thinking they have valid arguments while failing to realize that even if all of human knowledge could be disproven it would not bring them one step closer to what they want to believe.

"The pride of your heart has deceived you." Obadiah 1:3
The kingdom of God is at hand. The creator of the universe and the source of inspiration for the writer of Genesis is obviously maleveolent and not to be trusted. So why is he so damned popular? God and Jesus had nothing to do with either one.
 
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KarjamP

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You haven't been play attention to science then. As one reporter long ago mention to a group of scientist that one thing he quickly noticed how one group of scientist think a different group with a different view are complete idiots.
By the way everyone is a scientist in the general sense as it's something that is "wired" into man.
You didn't read Mathias Rose's reply to that post which refuted it in a more polite way. As I said, us Christians are just as guilty of doing stuff like this.
 
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KarjamP

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Guys? "Blind faith" has nothing to do with the topic at hand other than a possible justification for Young Earth Creationists deceiving themselves.

The topic is the fact that Creationists (or, more accurately, Young Earth Creationists) are deceiving themselves out of sheer pride. It's right there in the title of the thread.

I'm asking you, please don't derail this thread to discuss "blind faith". Yes, we Christians do stuff like misapplying biblical verses to justify their sinful desires or question God's abilities, but the ones who are serious about obeying God either won't do so knowingly or they don't know better (in which case, guidance from someone like a priest is a must and you mustn't bash others for it).
 
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paulm50

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Guys? "Blind faith" has nothing to do with the topic at hand other than a possible justification for Young Earth Creationists deceiving themselves.

The topic is the fact that Creationists (or, more accurately, Young Earth Creationists) are deceiving themselves out of sheer pride. It's right there in the title of the thread.

I'm asking you, please don't derail this thread to discuss "blind faith". Yes, we Christians do stuff like misapplying biblical verses to justify their sinful desires or question God's abilities, but the ones who are serious about obeying God either won't do so knowingly or they don't know better (in which case, guidance from someone like a priest is a must and you mustn't bash others for it).
And the Old Earth Creationists, what guides them?

You think god has abilities, what makes you believe that. The evidence or the book?

Arr you obeying god, or them men telling you what the book means? And by that I mean every translation after the original writings including the ones a ruler decided were wrong. Even those written by his disciples?

As you say, guidance from a priest, who will tell you what it means, in his church's version of the original. The problem with listening to the CEO's and managers of a business. Is they always tell you what will benefit them. Such as go kill those who don't belong to our sect, go convert those people over seas and while you're there. Rob them of their gold, land and enslave them. Replace gold for oil.

Or should we ignore what organised religion has done for the last 10,000 years? The Jewish one only the last 3,000 and even doing it today.
 
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KarjamP

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The answers to those questions are obvious - Old Earth Creationists believe the scientists's claims when it comes to how old the Earth is and whether or not evolution's true. We get our guidance through the bible, and some Christian denominations, such as the Roman Catholic Church, also get their guidance through an important leader (the Pope, in the case of the Roman Catholics).

What are you trying to prove by asking those questions? That our faiths are meaningless? The ones who are misusing God's name for their own evil means aren't proper Christians in the true sense of the word.

This thread isn't to discuss where we get our own guidance from. It's to discuss the stubbornness pride of Young Earth Creationists.
 
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KWCrazy

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Then we need to recognize biblical creation is not supported by science.
There are 333 miracles in the Bible.
None of them are supported by science.
Either you believe in the actions of supernatural God or you deny His authority over the world He created and say that natural law, not God, is Lord.
Genesis is God's account of creation. Yours doesn't matter.
 
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KWCrazy

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I would like to see Jesus elevated in the world rather than going down in a ruin of anti-intellectualism and stupidity.
Stupidity is rejecting the word of the Lord.
Evolution is not intellectualism.
Rejecting the Bible doesn't make you smarter.
Conforming to what teachers tell you contrary to the truth makes you a sheep, not an intellect.
You say you would become a Christian but only if you can change that word of God to fit your beliefs. That isn't how it works.
Jesus Christ affirmed that the Scriptures are true. You say He was wrong, but you might be a follower anyway?
Only by affirming the sacrifice and the resurrection of Christ can you be saved from sin. Sin is not scientific, and neither is the resurrection. You can't come to a supernatural God through the worship of natural law.
You can't understand the creator of the world by trying to find a way that the world could have created itself.
Sorry, I don't believe you. If you were seeking the truth, you wouldn't be here attacking the Word.
Seek first the Lord and the understanding of all will be revealed in time.
 
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redleghunter

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Thank you!



I think you are speaking about yourself here.

I can and do get past "In the Beginning God..." and I don't think those words have much if any bearing on the truth of the life that I actually live. I'll put this plainly: how the universe was created holds absolutely no interest for me, and has no relationship to my belief in God or any other aspect of my spiritual life, my practical life, or the decisions I make.



You seem to be saying that myth, allegory, and clear truth are separate things. I disagree with the premise.



So: what do you think "the Word" is here?

Because this has never sounded like John was talking about scripture here.

Do I believe that this mystical concept of "the Word" -- this Logos -- is eternal? I do. But the specifics of how the material world came about is (to my mind) a completely unrelated topic. Even my theological beliefs about and mystical experiences of the Logos are largely a matter of passing curiosity, but as for any connection to, justification of, or arguments about the creation of the universe (or the earth) -- I don't see it. I don't see the connection, and I don't see the signifance for my life.

I was opining on the post-modern mindset, and not addressing you specifically. Your comments show a spiritual maturity.

Can you expand on what you meant by "mystical experiences of the Logos?" I have never heard of Christ Jesus, The Son of God referred to as 'mystical.' That is a term absent from any lexicon I am familiar with. Thanks.

For me John 1 is important for all who profess Jesus Christ, The Son of God as Lord and Savior. His Deity is at the center of Soteriology and Christology.
 
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redleghunter

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Okay, does Jones also try to prove the earth was created before the sun?

Did the sun come before or after the Creator? That is the question. Look at Genesis 1 again and everywhere you see water replace with liquid and think of what matter is liquid in certain states.

You mention a primitive people receiving this revelation. More accurately, the language used was very simple and corresponded to things the people could relate to in their environment. For example in the paleo-Hebrew 'water' could also mean plain old liquid. As the word for water and goats milk is liquid. This is what Moses and the Israelites dealt with to understand God's revelation:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/28_chart.html

28_alphabetchart.gif
 
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redleghunter

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In my HUMBLE opinion, you are WRONG. I’d like to remind all evolutionists that their intermediary step of "evolution" does not remove the necessity of having a first Creator. That point made, I do not personally believe in the THEORY of Evolution AT ALL. I am a Catholic Creationist. Please read"Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome" by Dr. John C. Sanford. He is an expert geneticist and PROVES that Evolution CANNOT explain life as we know it. Dr. Sanford was once an atheist; he is now a Christian.

Dr. Sanford points out that the genetic transference of information from one generation to the next is IMPERFECT. It’s like making a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy... each successive generation is less perfect than the previous. Furthermore, virtually ALL mutations produced are detrimental. There is NO “evolution” at all, ONLY DEVOLUTION. Please don’t mock the Biblical accounts in Genesis. The idea that the first few generations after the fall would have had much greater longevity than we do is PERFECTLY in line with REAL genetic entropy. This was one of the reasons Sanford decided to begin taking Christianity seriously. You also have to factor in that Methuselah and Noah didn't have central heating, clean food in a nearby refrigerator, flush toilets, pocket coil mattresses, automobiles, power tools, modern medicine, etc. In fact, these are the only factors that have raised the life expectancy in recent decades.

Genetic entropy also explains the recent rise in birth defects, allergies and other natal phenomenon. As a practicing Catholic, I am NOT bound to deny evolution at all... but the FACT is that genetic SCIENCE points much more firmly to CREATION than to the EMPTY THEORY of evolution.

Thank you. I've heard of Dr. Sanford. Will look at your link. LOL I have to ask...Your avatar...What does it mean. Never saw it before.

God Bless.
 
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redleghunter

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This is about your supposed theory of Creationism. If you want scientific credibility you have to support your theory with more than just a belief.

Are you really opposing "Creationism" or a young earth creationism? If one opposes Creationism it means they deny God is the uncreated Creator.
 
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redleghunter

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My God, the One True God is the God of creation. He doesn't adhere to your demands of proof. He is the God of all... universe, man, reason, logic and SCIENCE. He doesn't have to explain Himself any more than He has. Therefore, we as His believers don't have to do any more than point you back to the scripture you've been so critical of. What you are missing is that God DOES NOT adhere to our scientific laws!! He created them! He could as easily move a solar system as you could your car keys. To ask "did God create our planet before He did the Sun" is to ask did God have the POWER to do that?

That sir, is a question you must ask yourself. I hope that the people that have responded to you in this thread have given you a reasonable answer. The rest is between you and He.

First, I 'liked' your post and hit that 'button.' It is a mature Christian's response. But there are seekers and skeptics who ask these questions. We also know, someone (Thomas) who walked the earth with Christ demanded that he see His wounds to prove to him Christ was resurrected. We are also told "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;" (1 Peter 3:15).

I see your point. The main question before anyone considers origins is if Jesus Christ, Son of the Ever Living God is Who He says He is and DID everything that is revealed. I asked such questions up thread to our skeptic with no response.
 
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redleghunter

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"Yet there are many Christians who on prideful faith accept the idea that Genesis is the literal account of how Creation took place."

Let me stop you there. If taking seemingly impossible narratives literally is pride, why do you stop with Genesis? Do virgins give birth? Do the dead raise to life after 3 days? Can objects having more density than water float on it? Don't all of these go against mainstream science.

The above is the issue at hand IMO. Good point. I asked similar questions. However, the post-modern skeptic cannot get passed "In the Beginning God..."
 
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Givemeareason

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Are you really opposing "Creationism" or a young earth creationism? If one opposes Creationism it means they deny God is the uncreated Creator.
Yet another attempt to change the topic? The idea is quite simple and has nothing to with anyone professing or questioning faith. Creationists try to pose themselves as scientists in order to dispute science. Yet their hidden agenda is to promote the book of Genesis. If they are scientists they should be able to support their own theory in addition to attacking the theories of others. When their motives become apparent it is seen they cannot. Since they are being idolized by their believers they are leading them astray. The ones who follow them refuse to see their error as well largely because they have little knowledge of science either. The reason this is important to is because it demeans the image of Christianity and makes it look like a bunch of fools. And it ensnares others into this deceit. Post 109 aptly depicts what is going on. Christianity is not about just saving yourself. It is about saving others as well.
 
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redleghunter

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I partly agree. It's good to know how we arrived here, but not essential.

Until one sees the damage that blind faith caused and still causes. People are objecting to two people getting married because an old book tells them it's wrong. We see continual revelations of priest abusing children, and the RCC doing it's best to cover it up until recently. Will they open their archives to the police?

The RCC attitude towards contraception. The general attitude toward limiting family size is is killing the planet. all because the book say "Go Forth and multiply."

The anti abortionists claiming killing doctors is christian.

Then we have all the fake evangelists and healers whose only mission is to line their pockets.

The churches that cause pain on families by isolating a person who leaves the faith.

Without going back in History of the tens of millions who dies because of their faith or someone else imposing their faith on them, usually to steal something. And look at the Middle East today. And not that it's all about Muslims, bush is on record for saying god commanded him to end the tyranny in Iraq. Seems god should of told someone with a clue how to do it. Bush made it worse.

Stop the blind faith in old out dated mostly discredited books, and get on with loving one another.

Blind faith is believing in something or someone without evidence of the truth claim.

Christianity is not blind faith. "The faith spoken of in the Bible is a faith that is preceded by knowledge."

More in detail here:

A common misconception among atheists, humanists, and evolutionists is that those who reject evolution in order to hold to a fundamental, literal understanding of the biblical documents are guided by “blind faith.” Robinson articulated this position quite emphatically when he accused Christians of abandoning rationality and evidence in exchange for intellectual dishonesty and ignorance of the truth (1976, pp. 115-124). Many within the scientific community labor under the delusion that their “facts” and “evidence” are supportive of evolution and opposed to a normal, face-value understanding of the biblical text. They scoff at those who disagree with them, as if they alone have a corner on truth.

The fact of the matter is that while most of the religious world deserves the epithets hurled by the “informed” academicians, those who espouse pure, New Testament Christianity do not. New Testament Christians embrace the biblical definition of faith, in contrast to the commonly conceived understanding of faith that is promulgated by the vast majority of people in the denominational world.

The faith spoken of in the Bible is a faith that is preceded by knowledge. One cannot possess biblicalfaith in God until he or she comes to the knowledge of God. Thus, faith is not accepting what one cannot prove. Faith cannot outrun knowledge—for it is dependent upon knowledge (Romans 10:17). Abraham was said to have had faith only after he came to the knowledge of God’s promises and was fully persuaded (Romans 4:20-21). His faith, therefore, was seen in his trust and submission to what he knew to be the will of God. Biblical faith is attained only after an examination of the evidence, coupled with correct reasoning about the evidence.

The God of the Bible is a God of truth. Throughout biblical history, He has stressed the need for the acceptance of truth—in contrast with error and falsehood. Those who, in fact, fail to seek the truth are considered by God to be wicked (Jeremiah 5:1). The wise man urged: “Buy the truth, and sell it not” (Proverbs 23:23). Paul, himself an accomplished logician, exhorted people to love the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). He stated the necessity of giving diligence to the task of dealing with the truth properly (2 Timothy 2:15). Jesus declared that only by knowing the truth is one made free (John 8:32). Luke ascribed nobility to those who were willing to search for and examine the evidence, rather than being content to simply take someone’s word for the truth (Acts 17:11). Peter admonished Christians to be prepared to give a defense (1 Peter 3:15), which stands in stark contrast to those who, when questioned about proof of God, or the credibility and comprehensibility of the Bible, triumphantly reply, “I don’t know—I accept it by faith!”

Thus, the notion of “blind faith” is completely foreign to the Bible. People are called upon to have faith only after they receive adequate knowledge. In fact, the Bible demands that the thinker be rational in gathering information, examining the evidence, and reasoning properly about the evidence, thereby drawing only warranted conclusions. That, in fact, is the essentiality of what is known in philosophical circles as the basic law of rationality: one should draw only such conclusions as are justified by the evidence. Paul articulated exactly this concept when he wrote: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). John echoed the same thought when he said to “test the spirits” (1 John 4:1). These passages show that the New Testament Christian is one who stands ready to examine the issues. God expects every individual to put to the test various doctrines and beliefs, and then to reach only such conclusions as are warranted by adequate evidence. Man must not rely upon papal authorities, church traditions, or the claims of science. Rather, all people are obligated to rely upon the properly studied written directives of God (2 Timothy 2:15; John 12:48; 2 Peter 3:16). Biblical religion and modern science clash only because the majority of those within the scientific community have abandoned sound biblical hermeneutics and insist upon drawing unwarranted, erroneous conclusions from the relevant scientific evidence.

The Bible insists that evidence is abundantly available for those who will engage in unprejudiced, rational inquiry. The resurrection claim, for example, was substantiated by “many infallible proofs,” including verification through the observation of more than five hundred persons at once (Acts 1:3; 1 Corinthians 15:5-8). Many proofs were made available in order to pave the way for faith (John 20:30-31). Peter offered at least four lines of evidence to those gathered in Jerusalem before he concluded his argument with “therefore…” (Acts 2:14-36). The acquisition of knowledge through empirical evidence was undeniable, for Peter concluded, “as you yourselves also know” (Acts 2:22, emp. added). John referred to the auditory, visual, and tactile evidences that provided further empirical verification (1 John 1:1-2). Christ offered “works” to corroborate His claims, so that even His enemies did not have to rely merely on His words—if they would but honestly reason to the only logical conclusion (John 10:24-25,38). The proof was of such magnitude that one Pharisee, a ruler of the Jews, even admitted: “[W]e know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him” (John 3:2).

Nevertheless, there are always those who, for one reason or another, refuse to accept the law of rationality, and who avoid the warranted conclusions—just like those who side-stepped the proof that Christ presented, and attributed it to Satan (Matthew 12:24). Christ countered such an erroneous conclusion by pointing out their faulty reasoning and the false implications of their argument (Matthew 12:25-27). The proof that the apostles presented was equally conclusive, though unacceptable to many (Acts 4:16).

http://evidenceforjesuschrist.org/Pages/apologetics/blind-faith.htm


The proof in our day is no less conclusive, nor is it any less compelling. While it is not within the purview of this brief article to prove such (see Warren and Flew, 1977; Warren and Matson, 1978), the following tenets are provable: (1) we can know (not merely think, hope, or wish) that God exists (Romans 1:19-20); (2) we can know that the Bible is the verbally inspired Word of God, and intended to be comprehended in much the same way that any written human communication is to be understood; (3) we can know that one day we will stand before God in judgment and give account for whether we have studied the Bible, learned what to do to be saved, and obeyed those instructions; and (4) we can know that we know (1 John 2:3).
By abandoning the Bible as a literal, inerrant, infallible standard by which all human behavior is to be measured, the scientist has effectively rendered biblical religion, biblical faith, and New Testament Christianity sterile—at least as far as his or her own life is concerned. Once the Bible is dismissed as “figurative,” “confusing,” or “incomprehensible,” one has opened wide the doors of subjectivity, in which every man’s view is just as good as another’s. The more sophisticated viewpoint may be more appealing, but it remains just as subjective and self-stylized.
REFERENCES
Robinson, Richard (1976), “Religion and Reason,” Critiques of God, ed. Peter A. Angeles (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus).
Warren, Thomas B. and Antony G.N. Flew (1977), The Warren-Flew Debate (Jonesboro, AR: National Christian Press).
Warren, Thomas B. and Wallace I. Matson (1978), The Warren-Matson Debate (Jonesboro, AR: National Christian Press).
 
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redleghunter

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Yet another attempt to change the topic? The idea is quite simple and has nothing to with anyone professing or questioning faith. Creationists try to pose themselves as scientists in order to dispute science. Yet their hidden agenda is to promote the book of Genesis. If they are scientists they should be able to support their own theory in addition to attacking the theories of others. When their motives become apparent it is seen they cannot. Since they are being idolized by their believers they are leading them astray. The ones who follow them refuse to see their error as well largely because they have little knowledge of science either. The reason this is important to is because it demeans the image of Christianity and makes it look like a bunch of fools. And it ensnares others into this deceit. Post 109 aptly depicts what is going on. Christianity is not about just saving yourself. It is about saving others as well.

Please tell me...What is more 'foolish' in your opinion?

That God created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal solar days? Or that Jesus Christ was crucified, died and resurrected three days later?

Which is more 'deceptive' for a Christian to believe?
 
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Givemeareason

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Please tell me...What is more 'foolish' in your opinion?

That God created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal solar days? Or that Jesus Christ was crucified, died and resurrected three days later?

Which is more 'deceptive' for a Christian to believe?
You just can't get back on topic, can you? What you are doing is engaging in the ancient practices of condemning heretics. Rather than trying to understand what I am saying you are trying to trip me. This is typically seen as condemning someone by virtue of the accusation. This also is deceitful and completely off topic. It is also a common form of fallacious reasoning. It is also useful in deceiving yourself because you seem to think that if you can discredit me you will have then discredited everything I have said. I will let you decide who is the fool
 
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