Can I be Christian and Not Believe the Bible?

whereisthetruth · May 29, 2015

Catherineanne said:
If you can find me the Scripture that calls the Bible 'God's Inspired Truth' or 'The Word of God', then I will believe it. If it is not written, then I am happy to remain not believing it.

What the Bible actually says is that Christ himself is the Word of God, not the Bible. And funnily enough, that is what I believe.

Would you believe:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Daniel 9:2
in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

John 10:35
If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—

Hebrews 4:12 [Full Chapter]
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Romans 3:2
Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

2 Peter 1:21New International Version (NIV)
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

whereisthetruth · May 29, 2015

Colter said:
We need to realize that there was a religion of Jesus, his original gospel of the kingdom of heaven. Christianity evolved into a religion about Jesus. As it stands Christianity is unsalvageable. What is needed now is Jesus, to see him once again living in the lives of those who have whole heartedly dedicated their lives to his exalted life purpose.

Voicing cheap cliche's isn't the same as revealing the truth. The true gospel is the gospel OF Jesus Christ, ABOUT Jesus Christ:

Romans 1:9
God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

Many substitute 'gospels' such as you are proclaiming have neither the internal nor external evidence to support it. The gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the scriptures - the Bible as we have it today - more than answers that requirement. Based in history, backed by abounding internal and external evidence, the word of God stands alone above all forms of religious literature. It isn't hard to receive Jesus Christ and know it to be the truth solely by examining the scriptures and ALLOWING THEM TO EXAMINE YOU.
Millions are testifying to this every day. But for reasons of vanity or pride or unwillingness to face the truth, many preach a 'gospel' which is neither truth nor power unto salvation. This has always been the case, and is no surprise.
Much of this discussion is pointless and nothing but moving electron particles around in vain.
Jesus said clearly that we could know him through the scriptures. The issue is not that the scriptures cannot reveal Christ sufficiently to believe, but that men are hard in heart and refuse to believe in spite of ample evidence:

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Colter · May 29, 2015

whereisthetruth said:
Voicing cheap cliche's isn't the same as revealing the truth. The true gospel is the gospel OF Jesus Christ, ABOUT Jesus Christ:

Romans 1:9
God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

Many substitute 'gospels' such as you are proclaiming have neither the internal nor external evidence to support it. The gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the scriptures - the Bible as we have it today - more than answers that requirement. Based in history, backed by abounding internal and external evidence, the word of God stands alone above all forms of religious literature. It isn't hard to receive Jesus Christ and know it to be the truth solely by examining the scriptures and ALLOWING THEM TO EXAMINE YOU.
Millions are testifying to this every day. But for reasons of vanity or pride or unwillingness to face the truth, many preach a 'gospel' which is neither truth nor power unto salvation. This has always been the case, and is no surprise.
Much of this discussion is pointless and nothing but moving electron particles around in vain.
Jesus said clearly that we could know him through the scriptures. The issue is not that the scriptures cannot reveal Christ sufficiently to believe, but that men are hard in heart and refuse to believe in spite of ample evidence:

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

The original gospel of Jesus that he labored for 3+ years to impress upon the Jews who were to receive it was not a "cheep cliché.

Matthew 4:23
"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people."

Colter · May 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
I would like to hear more of his original gospel.

One way we can see that there was an original gospel is to imagine "what if" the Jews had taken up the gospel that Jesus preached to them and carried that gospel to the 4 corners of the earth? Jesus obviously wasn't preaching "Christ and him crucified" because the cross hadn't happened yet. But it is fascinating that, as Jesus realized that his gospel was going to be rejected, he alluded to his impending death and the outpouring of "the spirit of truth" in a prophetic way. In fact Jesus defined the cross as proof of his authority to teach, NOT a human sacrifice as was common in the Pagan beliefs.

After the cross the gospel changed, the original gospel, wherein man realizes that he is a son of God himself, that by faith we can have an eternal relationship with a Loving, forgiving God, is replaced by the gospel about the cross, Christ as a redeemer of the re-institutionalized church. The entire focus changed from the original gospel of the kingdom to believing the cross was a human sacrifice. In other words, the gospel was contaminated by old ideas that Jesus neither taught nor practiced.

Colter · May 29, 2015

katerinah1947 said:
Hi,
You seem to be quite satisfied with what you know. I am pleased with that. And you really don't seem to be seeking any answers, you seem to have answers and are telling us what they are.
Yet, as I read your posts, tension rises in me. Just not enough tension as your errors are not important enough to say anything about, yet.
I do like your fervor.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Hi Mary, I like that reply. Ya-know, when one seeks we do find answers, but I don't claim to have them all.

rockytopva · May 29, 2015

There are two shinny trumpets... The Spirit and the Word!

1. The Spirit bears witness to the Word
2. The Word bears witness to the Spirit

They were cut out of the same piece if you will.

1. It is impossible to take interest in the Word without the Spirit
2. It is impossible to have the Spirit and not have interest in the Word

If you ever have the Spirit of the Lord come into your eternal soul you will immediately take interest in the Word of God. Not only will you believe in the Bible but it will be of all books most dear.

Colter · May 29, 2015

rockytopva said:
There are two shinny trumpets... The Spirit and the Word!

1. The Spirit bears witness to the Word
2. The Word bears witness to the Spirit

They were cut out of the same piece if you will.

1. It is impossible to take interest in the Word without the Spirit
2. It is impossible to have the Spirit and not have interest in the Word

If you ever have the Spirit of the Lord come into your eternal soul you will immediately take interest in the Word of God. Not only will you believe in the Bible but it will be of all books most dear.

The newspaper isn't the news.

bhsmte · May 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
You are right though. I think too rational prevents the encounter of faith which is what I think you are saying. The problem for me is that I would not be able to sustain faith because shortly after I would begin to doubt. Doubt also arises from being rational. But I have no choice.

We think how we think.

It is pretty well established, that people who tend to think analytically, are less likely to have religious beliefs. Of course, there are other factors involved in whether we have religious beliefs or not, but our style of thinking appears to play a role.

bhsmte · May 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
Well yes. You are rational, right?

I think it comes in quite handy, to be able to have rational/logical thought.

Givemeareason · May 29, 2015

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
The Old Testament is history, since when is history not applicable in this time? Do we not learn from the past?

Indeed it is history. But I do not think history should be applied as law. Law should come from the present in view of the past.

Givemeareason · May 29, 2015

single eye said:
YES! Jesus invited 12 publicans and sinners to follow Him. Prior to returning to heaven, Jesus informed the saints that they had more to learn and "Another Comforter", aka The Spirit of Truth, would be sent to teach them everything we needed to know. This critical information was rejected from the bible and replaced with the blood atonement doctrine. The gift of grace and blood atonement are contradictory and mutually exclusive. Saint John provided us with an account of the creation that took place in heaven prior to the creation of the universe. This is the context for understanding the gift of grace taught to the disciples and is found in The Aocryphon of John.

Is this in the new testament or was it rejected there as well?

Givemeareason · May 29, 2015

whereisthetruth said:
Voicing cheap cliche's isn't the same as revealing the truth. The true gospel is the gospel OF Jesus Christ, ABOUT Jesus Christ:

Romans 1:9
God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

Many substitute 'gospels' such as you are proclaiming have neither the internal nor external evidence to support it. The gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the scriptures - the Bible as we have it today - more than answers that requirement. Based in history, backed by abounding internal and external evidence, the word of God stands alone above all forms of religious literature. It isn't hard to receive Jesus Christ and know it to be the truth solely by examining the scriptures and ALLOWING THEM TO EXAMINE YOU.
Millions are testifying to this every day. But for reasons of vanity or pride or unwillingness to face the truth, many preach a 'gospel' which is neither truth nor power unto salvation. This has always been the case, and is no surprise.
Much of this discussion is pointless and nothing but moving electron particles around in vain.
Jesus said clearly that we could know him through the scriptures. The issue is not that the scriptures cannot reveal Christ sufficiently to believe, but that men are hard in heart and refuse to believe in spite of ample evidence:

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

The problem I am seeing in this argument is knowing what scripture Jesus was referring to. I am aware that much scripture was left out of the Bible.

com7fy8 · May 29, 2015

bhsmte said:
Very little written about Jesus except the NT.

Well, Jesus says, about the early scriptures, "'You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.'" (John 5:39)

There are things in the early scriptures which are understood to be prophesies about Jesus, for one example Psalm 22. Also, from how God handles things during early scripture history, we can get understanding about Jesus and how He is, including . . . though . . . how He judges. There is a lot about judging sin, in the early scriptures. This can show us that it is better to be with God. This is not "very little" to get, I would "think"

There is judgment (John 16:7-11) . . . not just smiley-face grace from God at a distance!

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:7 and also in 1 peter 5:5.

Because our Father cares about us, He personally resists each of us while we are doing things in ego - - so we do not keep on in the direction where Satan has us going in ego (Ephesians 2:2). And then is when I can get upset and downcast and bent out of shape about not getting my own way. But my nasty and negative reacting can be a warning to me, that I am getting away from God; and then I can trust God to correct me and restore me into sweet and sensitive sharing with Him and submitting to . . . discovering . . . how He rules me in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

A lot of early scripture history is an object lesson about what can happen if people do things without Jesus. So, it is definitely about Jesus, in one way or another. God perfectly does His good to people, in the early scripture, and His judging is perfect; yet, without Jesus, even God gets "nowhere" with people. We need Jesus in us, as our "electromagnet" to attract us together with all that is God, or else our lives are like what happens to all those iron filings on paper over an electromagnet which is turned off.

With Jesus, things make sense, because Jesus in us is our light of love - - - so that we can see things the way love has us seeing and reacting and responding with compassion with hope.

Jesus in us is the living Word of God . . . the living and loving meaning of every scripture. And as I have offered, all the negative things of Bible history are object lessons, fair warnings. God knows how much He can do with a person who refuses to have His Son living in that person > "without Me, you can do nothing" (in John 15:5).

Satan was in Heaven itself, but he was not satisfied with Heaven itself, even . . . though there were such perfect surroundings and all the loving in Heaven. So, Satan got thrown out > Luke 10:17-20. And, likewise, if judgment is in Heaven . . . plenty of people will go to Heaven for their day of judgment, yes, but will they stay there? Will they want to? Plenty of selfish people, in the Gospels, could not stand Jesus!! So, yes ones boast they are going to "Heaven", but if they are selfish, how much will they enjoy our Groom? Ones may go to Heaven, but will they stay there? If we have lived selfishly, we "might" not enjoy being in Heaven and with Jesus. "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

I understand He means our cross of all-loving love which has us also glad to forgive and do loving good to people who do not deserve to have us bear burdens for them and suffer for them, like how Jesus on the cross did for us > His example is required of us >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Jesus was sweetly pleasing to our Father, while He suffered so and obeyed. He in us makes us how He is, or else we can not sweetly please our Father (1 Peter 3:4, 2 Corinthians 2:14-15), no matter what sacrifices we make (1 Corinthians 13:3). And I consider that only sweet-smelling people will stay with Jesus; God smells us.

But . . . also . . . there is plenty of positive sharing in the early scriptures. People so deeply appreciate the Psalms, which are so about God and trusting Him and how things go because of trusting God. And in the Psalms there is plenty about Jesus, though He is not directly named, including how it is to have Him as our Shepherd > Psalm 23, known by many as the "Twenty-third Psalm".

So, if someone says there is very little "written" about Jesus in the early scriptures, this could mean very little has been "read" by that person who says this

Or, very little has been "remembered". And it needs to be understood, of course.

But, like I mean . . . without Jesus in us as our light of God's love . . . none of us has very much "chance" of "getting" what a scripture means . . . the love meaning, the love application. Jesus in us is the living and the loving meaning of God's word.

It is like how you can have an automobile owner's manual, but if you have never seen or touched a car, your chances of understanding the manual are "interesting".

Or . . . imagine if you were a hula dancer in Hawaii and never have you been where it can get cold. And online you connect with an Eskimo who lives in an igloo, and he has you come up to visit him, for Christmas. Well, you dress in your best grassy skirt but putting on an extra layer of grass since he says you will need to dress with "layers" for the cold

And you get off the private plane on the ice, at his igloo, and you don't even know "why" you are shaking so much when you aren't even trying to dance. They take you right into their igloo and decide they had better give you your Christmas presents, right away . . . a parka, mukluks, pants, puffy and fluffy mitts. And, mmmm, you don't know what they are for! They have to tell you to put them on. Then is when you so appreciate these gifts that you didn't even know you needed.

Like this, Jesus is the gift we did not know we so needed. And only our Father knows what to have us do with Him. So, if being "rational" hasn't gotten us with God in His love and joy and peace, there is a "reason" for this.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Givemeareason · May 29, 2015

So I ask this question. If JESUS IS THE LAW, then all that was written by others that did not pertain to Jesus then not the law?.

Albion · May 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
So I ask this question. If JESUS IS THE LAW, then all that was written by others that did not pertain to Jesus then not the law?.

Jesus is not the Law.

Givemeareason · May 29, 2015

Albion said:
Jesus is not the Law.

If Jesus is not the law, then I am unlawful. I have come to realize that the example of Jesus is the law that exists within me. And though I am unable to follow his he compels me to create law within myself that aspires to his law. And this is why I BELIEVE THAT CHRISTIANITY NEEDS TO ASPIRE TO BE MORE LIKE JESUS.

JacksBratt · May 29, 2015

Catherineanne said:
'By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples; that ye believe the Bible'. Sorry, can't find that one anywhere; perhaps you could give me the verse?

Thank you at least for trying with the others; that is most kind of you. I accept that the Bible is useful for teaching; indeed it is. So is the Atlas on my bookcase. It may contain the word of God, but it is not itself the Word of God. The two are far too often conflated.

As for it not saying verbatim what is stated, what is the view of Sola Scriptura on that one; is inference sufficient, or does it have to be explicitly stated? I am no expert on SS, so I would not know. I do know the 39 articles speak of the 'plain word of Scripture' and that is the measure I use.

I believe the Bible to be what it says that it is; nothing more, nothing less. It says that Christ is the eternal Word of God; see the Gospel of John, opening verses. Is he mistaken, do you think? Or is Isaiah mistaken in calling Christ the Cornerstone of our faith, the Plumbline of righteousness?

It is Christ who is the Truth; it is he who is perfect. The Bible does not anywhere claim to be perfect and until it does I will retain the right not to believe it.

Mistaking the Bible for God himself is little short of blasphemy to me. Others can choose for themselves, but I will never put the Bible on equal status with God; nowhere near. The relationship is as of the A-Z London guide with the city itself; it may help us to get there, it may even help us find our way around, but it is not London.

Oxford Street is not in fact 3mm wide, nor painted yellow.

And God's mercy is not constrained by any book. Not even the Bible.

I bolded part of your post. I believe that I stated the exact same thing, let's see....

jacksbratt said:
I guess I should of been more precise as to say that the Bible is not the word of God but Contains the word of God. So, yes, the Bible is not to be worshiped, idolized, or whatever.

As for what the Sola Scriptura say's. Well I posted it here below:

Scripture is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

I have read enough to fully believe that the Bible or Holy Bible, is the book that contains God's word to the human race put in text form. I believe it is truth, I believe it was written by men as they were inspired by God. I believe it will never be destroyed and is a living text that will endure for eternity. It is not just a text book, as your atlas is.

As for the rest of your post, I don't follow your point.

Albion · May 29, 2015

Givemeareason said:
If Jesus is not the law, then I am unlawful.

I didn't say there was no Law, just that Jesus is not himself the Law.

I have come to realize that the example of Jesus is the law that exists within me.

Now that's a problem. Jesus referred you to the Law that had already been given to Mankind by God...but you aren't willing to accept that. Instead, you are willing to accept Jesus as the Law, even though he isn't the Law himself and is not teaching against the Law that is laid out for us in the OT, doesn't say it's been repealed or set aside, or anything of that sort.

FredVB · May 29, 2015

- Faith in Christ can come to those who never see a Bible, in that sense believing the Bible isn't necessary for being a Christian believer. They believe what God revealed for that. But with the Bible available with so many truths important for God's people, they are impoverished without it. For me there isn't a choice in believing in God. I see God is the cause of all things being here, apart from anything to be argued. But it apparently is a choice for some so I won't dismiss that. In any case more is needed beyond knowing that God is there. Does God care for us? That would be important. So it is of value if there is something that is preserved that could be recorded of revelation from God to any of us of humanity, with a lot of evidence for it, showing that God cares for us, or any creatures here. Then it can be our choice to believe that, or believe something else in place of that.
- I copied this message from where I wrote it to here, sorry but I don't see how to get rid of the bullet points, where I first tried with this message saves it and I am stuck with them and see no way to post anything here without them now. And there isn't supposed to be an attachment.

FredVB · May 29, 2015

- Faith in Christ can come to those who never see a Bible, in that sense believing the Bible isn't necessary for being a Christian believer. They believe what God revealed for that. But with the Bible available with so many truths important for God's people, they are impoverished without it. For me there isn't a choice in believing in God. I see God is the cause of all things being here, apart from anything to be argued. But it apparently is a choice for some so I won't dismiss that. In any case more is needed beyond knowing that God is there. Does God care for us? That would be important. So it is of value if there is something that is preserved that could be recorded of revelation from God to any of us of humanity, with a lot of evidence for it, showing that God cares for us, or any creatures here. Then it can be our choice to believe that, or believe something else in place of that.
- I copied this message from where I wrote it to here, sorry but I don't see how to get rid of the bullet points, where I first tried with this message saves it and I am stuck with them and see no way to post anything here without them now. And there isn't supposed to be an attachment.

Can I be Christian and Not Believe the Bible?

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