Redshift, Dark Matter, Dark Energy, etc., etc.

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Prove it - here is my model which you have never even bothered to read.

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/hubble/



Because once again you do not understand the science. Plasma is a charged medium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

"An analysis of the doubly differential cross section above shows that electrons whose kinetic energy is larger than the rest energy (511 keV) emit photons in forward direction while electrons with a small energy emit photons isotropically."

So again, you want us to ignore how light behaves with charged electrons and pretend it's all like the air around us with electrons with small energy. Like I've had to say over and over - stop treating plasma like neutral dust and gas.



No, because in my model that plasma atmosphere is what causes the redshift to begin with (I thought it was gas according to you?). Yours is the one that ignores it by the light not magically being isotropically scattered in that "neutral" gas and dust you treat it like. Make up your mind - is it gas and dust which scatter isotropically or is it ions and charged electrons which scatter in the forward direction? Treat it like gas and your model defeats itself. How did you put it? "Somehow, the image just happens to reform at the Hubble Space telescope after being scattered across all of space." Treat it like plasma and it substantiates mine.

Either way your model is either falsified or irrelevant to the process.



And yet those two problems are only problems for those who treat plasma like neutral matter.
How would it produce a completely thermal spectrum we observe in the CMB? All observed bremsstrahlung is frequency dependent. What is this as of yet unspecified frequency independent bremsstrahlung? How is it propagating over interstallar and intergalactic distances without meaningful scatter?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You don't remember all of the posts in the other thread where Bremsstrahlung was shown to be incapable of producing the wavelength independent cosmological redshift? Really?

Oh I remember every one of those posts where indeed "CLAIMS" were made just like the "CLAIMS" you make now. And in not a single source is anything referenced except a blog site that you rely on for what you call science.

The only "fairy dust" is this supposed plasma that scatters light without blurring images and has a wavelength independent redshift. All experiments with plasma demonstrate just the opposite.

Really? Are you sure???? Or are you just making claims, without even thinking your argument through?

I say the latter since this plasma that surrounds the galaxy, if we take what you want everyone to believe - should scatter the light from distant galaxies blurring images.

On the other hand, I say that light is scattered in the forward direction in a highly charged medium, as per quantum electrodynamics, and therefore you can see distant galaxies, despite all that plasma just discovered that you say should scatter it so we can't see clear images.

That or again we must believe that light never interacts with particles in space.

So let's see - according to you plasma scatters gas isotropically and so should blur images of galaxies - being it is embedded in just this very medium. Yet we observe no such thing. And of course we must believe light never interacts with this medium.

I say light does interact with this medium, and is scattered in the forward direction with charged matter instead of isotropically with neutral gasses. And so those galaxy images should be clear, not blurry. Just redshifted due to charge, distance and density of those charged particles.

So, shall we test against observation? I'm sure we can all find a Hubble galaxy photo, in which details are sharp. So either that charged matter scatters light in a forward direction as per quantum electrodynamics, or the light is scattered isotropically by it in which case the images should all be blurred. Although I doubt if anyone really needs to go check to know which theory is correct. We all know how detailed Hubble photos are.
 
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lesliedellow

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Oh I remember every one of those posts where indeed "CLAIMS" were made just like the "CLAIMS" you make now. And in not a single source is anything referenced except a blog site that you rely on for what you call science.

Did the person who relies upon Wikipedia as his one and only text book actually write that?

Little understood articles from Wikipedia, it has to be said.
 
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Loudmouth

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Oh I remember every one of those posts where indeed "CLAIMS" were made just like the "CLAIMS" you make now. And in not a single source is anything referenced except a blog site that you rely on for what you call science.

You were eviscerated in that thread, and you couldn't even figure out the basic physics. Now you want to present the same mistaken nonsense as if no one has ever commented on it.

Shame on you.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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How would it produce a completely thermal spectrum we observe in the CMB? All observed bremsstrahlung is frequency dependent. What is this as of yet unspecified frequency independent bremsstrahlung? How is it propagating over interstallar and intergalactic distances without meaningful scatter?

The CMB? Now that's a laugh. You really want to know how, or have you not thought it out yet?

A complete thermal spectrum? You mean a specific spectrum of microwave at the frequency of 3K right which is all you consider? I'm not convinced you understand the theory yet. It's the Cosmic Microwave background Radiating at 3K.

So, let's look at the solar wind. Charged particles increasing in acceleration out past the orbits of the planets which comes to an almost complete stop at the heliosphere. Man you sure do like ignoring Bremsstrahlung don't you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

"is electromagnetic radiation produced by the deceleration of a charged particle when deflected by another charged particle, typically an electron by an atomic nucleus. The moving particle loses kinetic energy, which is converted into a photon, thus satisfying the law of conservation of energy. The term is also used to refer to the process of producing the radiation. Bremsstrahlung has a continuous spectrum, which becomes more intense and whose peak intensity shifts toward higher frequencies as the change of the energy of the accelerated particles increases."

So, what do we know by the laws of physics happens when a charged particle collides with another particle or is stopped by an electric field? Why it produces a continuous spectrum through Bremsstrahlung which is frequency independent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_spectrum
"In particular, the position and momentum of a free particle have a continuous spectrum, but when the particle is confined to a limited space its spectrum becomes discrete."

So now we begin to understand the differences between plasma confined in a glass jar - and plasma in space, and electrons bound to atoms.

So tell me, do these charged solar wind particles being continuously accelerated out past the planets, when they come to an almost complete stop at the heliosphere not do anything????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy

"In physics, the kinetic energy of an object is the energy that it possesses due to its motion.[1] It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. The same amount of work is done by the body in decelerating from its current speed to a state of rest."

No that certainly is not the case. I don't believe you have accounted for that energy in any of the CMB maps, nor the brightest thing in the sky by 2 to 3 times you couldn't even "see" a couple years ago. I say it is that Bremsstrahlung which is the CMB, since it is the dominant form of radiation observed everywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

"The dominant luminous component in a cluster of galaxies is the 107 to 108 kelvin intracluster medium. The emission from the intracluster medium is characterized by thermal bremsstrahlung...Bremsstrahlung is also the dominant emission mechanism for H II regions at radio wavelengths."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency

"Microwave exposure at low-power levels below the Specific absorption rate set by government regulatory bodies are considered harmless non-ionizing radiation and have no effect on the human body."

So instead of radio wavelengths they could of just said at Microwave frequencies. Which is what we would expect in a 360 degree sphere from the solar wind coming to an almost complete stop. Remeber the science part about Kinetic Energy linked to above?

No, the brightest source in the sky not even considered in your theory - because to you it was dark just a few years ago. You know, the solar wind and that ring that falsified every solar system model you had?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere#Heliopause

"Initial data from Interstellar Boundary Explorer (IBEX), launched in October 2008, revealed a previously unpredicted "very narrow ribbon that is two to three times brighter than anything else in the sky...."

"...The IBEX results are truly remarkable! What we are seeing in these maps does not match with any of the previous theoretical models of this region."

Your theories always fail the main test of a theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_power
"The predictive power of a scientific theory refers to its ability to generate testable predictions.[citation needed] Theories with strong predictive power are highly valued because they have practical applications."

Here's the citation needed, so you don't try to claim something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

" - It makes falsifiable predictions with consistent accuracy across a broad area of scientific inquiry"

All of which yours fail.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Did the person who relies upon Wikipedia as his one and only text book actually write that?

Little understood articles from Wikipedia, it has to be said.

Show me a scientific source that disagrees with any citations I have provided from Wiki? So you are just making "CLAIMS" right?

References are located at the bottom to the science. Got any laboratory experiments with plasma that uses anything but the electromagnetic formulas? Then what makes you think it's ok for cosmologists to do so in space?

Please, not your "CLAIM" it is ok to do so. I mean even GR is 95% incorrect when applied to the plasma state of matter.
 
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lesliedellow

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Show me a scientific source that disagrees with any citations I have provided from Wiki? So you are just making "CLAIMS" right?

References are located at the bottom to the science. Got any laboratory experiments with plasma that uses anything but the electromagnetic formulas? Then what makes you think it's ok for cosmologists to do so in space?

Just off the top of my head:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_drop_experiment

According to you, an experiment designed to measure the charge on an electron somehow succeeded in demonstrating that gravity is the same thing as electromagnetism.
 
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The CMB? Now that's a laugh. You really want to know how, or have you not thought it out yet?

A complete thermal spectrum? You mean a specific spectrum of microwave at the frequency of 3K right which is all you consider? I'm not convinced you understand the theory yet. It's the Cosmic Microwave background Radiating at 3K.
Ah, I knew you didn't actually read that paper.

Reading check:

What was the expected wavelength of light from such scattering according to the paper you linked?

Hint: it's not 3K
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Just off the top of my head:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_drop_experiment

According to you, an experiment designed to measure the charge on an electron somehow succeeded in demonstrating that gravity is the same thing as electromagnetism.

How can it not? Do you accept E=mc^2?


So when charge is added to an electron, it's mass increases, correct? This is also understood from acceleration experiments when the mass increases with added energy, without an increase in matter.

So tell me, why would an electron slow, stop and begin to rise against the force of gravity if indeed it now has more mass than before? Since the EM forces so easily were able to counteract the attractive force - even if the mass increased - what other possibility could there be, when the only difference was a higher voltage field?

Don't be fooled by voltage on and voltage off. Voltage fields exist everywhere already. All they did was increase it or set it back to its current level.

With a low voltage they fall as we see. With a higher voltage they slow and begin to rise, despite added mass. Which if you were logical you would apply to comets, instead we got to listen to explanations of rock that isn't rock and clay that isn't clay.
 
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lesliedellow

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How can it not? Do you accept E=mc^2?


So when charge is added to an electron, it's mass increases, correct? This is also understood from acceleration experiments when the mass increases with added energy, without an increase in matter.

So tell me, why would an electron slow, stop and begin to rise against the force of gravity if indeed it now has more mass than before? Since the EM forces so easily were able to counteract the attractive force - even if the mass increased - what other possibility could there be, when the only difference was a higher voltage field?

Don't be fooled by voltage on and voltage off. Voltage fields exist everywhere already. All they did was increase it or set it back to its current level.

With a low voltage they fall as we see. With a higher voltage they slow and begin to rise, despite added mass. Which if you were logical you would apply to comets, instead we got to listen to explanations of rock that isn't rock and clay that isn't clay.

I really do not know what you are prattling on about. No charge is added to an electron; the charge on an electron is fixed.
 
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Michael

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I really do not know what you are prattling on about. No charge is added to an electron; the charge on an electron is fixed.

The point is that you can have multiple electrons (or protons), and have a non-neutral plasma. Even black holes are not precluded from having a charge.
 
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Michael

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http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006IAUS..230..461Y

The problem of obtaining an average spectrum in the rest-frame of the sources is non-trivial. We show that conventional methods for averaging low signal-to-noise X-ray spectra, when applied to sources at different redshifts, result in a mean rest-frame spectrum that can exhibit artificial features. These include the broadening and weakening of emission/absorption lines, a broad dip in the continuum above an emission line, and a spectral hardening at the highest energies. All of these effects have been observed in real data and have been given fairly weighty astrophysical and/or cosmological interpretations.

I'd like to point out that LM's whole claim about the spectrum being smooth and "perfect" is pure nonsense.
 
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The Cadet

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The basic problem is that they are living in an oversimplified universe that is apparently devoid of plasma physics, or the effects of light that travels through various densities and EM fields, at various temperatures. They somehow think that a photon weaves and dodges it's way around every EM field and temperature gradient over billions of light years to arrive on Earth without experiencing a single inelastic scattering event. Talk about faith in *miracles*. Holy cow!
Given that "they" comprises most astrophysicists, and "you" are a couple of YECs, I'm going to go ahead and say the same thing I always say (or at least, should):

"When in doubt over whether a scientific discovery completely redefines a field, check to see if any nobel prizes are being handed out, or whether scientists in that field seem to care very much."

In this case, it's interesting, but it ignores an important factor: they didn't say that these supernovae were all over the map. They found that some were actually different, and that they formed two distinct groups. Bit of a difference from "we can throw redshift out the window", really...
 
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Michael

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Given that "they" comprises most astrophysicists, and "you" are a couple of YECs, I'm going to go ahead and say the same thing I always say (or at least, should):

FYI, I'm *absolutely not* a YEC. For all I know the universe is infinite and eternal. I embrace the concept of an ancient Earth, and evolutionary theory just like any good Catholic.

"When in doubt over whether a scientific discovery completely redefines a field, check to see if any nobel prizes are being handed out, or whether scientists in that field seem to care very much."

It's funny you should say that. The mainstream astronomers gave Hannes Alfven the Nobel Prize in MHD theory, and then promptly ignored everything that he ever said or published about the plasmas of spacetime. :( Sad actually.

In this case, it's interesting, but it ignores an important factor: they didn't say that these supernovae were all over the map. They found that some were actually different, and that they formed two distinct groups. Bit of a difference from "we can throw redshift out the window", really...

That's only the *most recent* revelation of the ridiculous oversimplified nature of their theory. The *real* problem is the notion that photons travel through billions of light years of plasma without experiencing any inelastic scattering or signal broadening. Talk about believing in miracles....
 
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The Cadet

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It's funny you should say that. The mainstream astronomers gave Hannes Alfven the Nobel Prize in MHD theory, and then promptly ignored everything that he ever said or published about the plasmas of spacetime. :( Sad actually.

Looking at his wikipedia article, it might be because he was hard to work with and had some phenomenally crackpot ideas. Like the plasma universe.
 
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Michael

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Looking at his wikipedia article, it might be because he was hard to work with and had some phenomenally crackpot ideas. Like the plasma universe.

When the mainstream is reduced to labeling Nobel Prize winning authors a "crackpot", you know there's a problem with the mainstream. The mainstream uses the term "crackpot" as a two bit personal attack, much like a theist labeling an atheist 'evil' simply because they don't happen to agree with him on some point of dogma. Yawn. Alfven certainly understood plasma physics and he applied his knowledge to the plasmas of spacetime. He wrote and published over 100 papers. To this day they still peddle a concept that Alfven himself called "pseudoscience" and which he made *obsolete* with his double layer paper.
 
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lesliedellow

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To this day they still peddle a concept that Alfven himself called "pseudoscience"

And as we all know, St Alfven is possessed of a towering infallibility the Pope himself would be envious of.
 
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Michael

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And as we all know, St Alfven is possessed of a towering infallibility the Pope himself would be envious of.

It's entirely possible that Alfven was wrong about *some* of his ideas, but it's not likely that the guy who literally wrote the book on plasma physics was wrong about *everything* that he discussed about a mostly plasma universe.

Care to site any example of such an error for us, or have you not yet read any of his work?
 
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lesliedellow

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Care to site any example of such an error for us, or have you not yet read any of his work?

It would seem Amazon no longer sells it - not even for the extortionate £160. I suppose the reason it cost so much was that nobody wanted to buy it, and the publishers still had to cover their overheads.
 
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Michael

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There's still tons of his papers that are freely available anytime you wish to read them. His book is mostly a collection of his published papers anyway. You can find many of his papers here by the way:

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/Alfven
 
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