The end times in two sentences.

Straightshot said:

The first resurrection is the one to eternal life .... more than one event of this resurrection takes place in the line up [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; Revelation 3:10; 20:4]

The second resurrection is to the second death .... only one of these [Revelation 20:11-15]

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Yes thats right ...the first resurrection is a new body to be like Jesus able to rise to heaven and have eternal life....and the second resurrection is the lost people who are raised up and then judge and cast into the lake of fire....

Ebed belief is that a resurrection is someone who was dead in sin....raised to life through the gospel...but to say this is the first resurrection takes away from scripture which teaches an actual resurrection of the dead who are asleep in the ground ...

Jesus said she is not dead but sleeping...symbolic of her actual death yet not lost....and he resurrected her. ..


Those that have died in Christ are in their graves not dead (lost)..but sleeping....until the Lord will resurrected them as he did the little girl....he is the resurrection and the life. ..

Paul said those that sleep will he raise first...the rapture is real. .

There are two kinds of dead...as in let the dead bury the dead...or let the lost bury the bodies of the dead

There we are two kinds of sleep....the lost in sin that need to awaken....and the bodies that lay in the ground that will awaken at the rapture...

Both spiritual and literal meanings . .we must discern properly lest we become deceived.

In a sense we were dead in sin. .Because sin condemned us before God. But the gospel has made us live again....free from judgement of the law that condemned us. Because it condemned our sacrifice instead...setting us free ...

We trade bodies with Jesus...we take all of his status upon us.. .and we give him our bodies to the cross. We have died with him on the cross ..that was my body on the cross...he is my sacrifice...he paid our penalty of sin......we are free from the power of the law.

We are free of Adams sin in the garden....we have been redeemed

dfw69 said:

I was just kidding with you


Yes this talks about the dead people who have died in the Lord and are buried who will walk out of their graves to receive new bodies to be able to rise to heaven where new Jerusalem an actual city awaits them....

The last trump is after the first trump..it has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets of rev which are judgements...

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No. The last trump refers to God gathering His people. Go back to Numbers 10:2 where God tells Moses to make the trumpets and see what they were for. That's very different from the trumpet judgments...those trumpets call for judgment NOT the gathering of God's people.

dfw69 said:

Jer reveals he will establish a new covenant in the last days with the Jews and the gospel laws will come out of Jerusalem...isaiah 2:3

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Absolutely! Yet you're denying Peter saying in Acts 2 as he quoted Joel that the Jews were in the last days. The problem is you don't get that they were the last days for the Jews as God's covenant people which Daniel 12 tells you that very thing. Furthermore read Hebrews 8:7-13 and understand what the writer is saying.

dfw69 said:

Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

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Read that in light of Hebrews 12:18-24.

dfw69 said:

If you continue to believe your views your will fall away from the Faith....because the false messiah comes first and your doctrine is paving the way for your own deception to receive him ....

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You can think that...yet it's you without the foundation of scripture! Much of what you say is what you've been taught, you can't show it from scripture.

dfw69 said:

We are in the kingdom of heaven by Faith if we remain in the Faith and not fall away to receive the coming false messiah...the kingdom we are to look for is the one above...one day you will see this to be true...

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Yet the scripture says "He who began a good work in you will be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT". Understand that!

dfw69 said:

After the 1000 years there will be a final rebellion for Satan will be let loose one last time . ..but you need to be aware of the coming false messiah and not worry about the last rebellion....because if you follow any messiah that is not sent from god...you will fall away.

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Not at all. It's you who don't get what Jesus was saying in John 12:27-33. Read that.

dfw69 said:

No ebed. .the first resurrection is an actual resurrection that takes place when the dead are resurrected out of their graves....your spiritual eyes are leading you astray from sound doctrine my friend

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So how are you MADE ALIVE in Christ? How many times does the scripture remind you you were dead in sin? WHy did Jesus say "Let the dead bury their dead" in Luke 9:59, 60? How about Romans 6:1-7 or Colossians 3:8-15?

dfw69 said:

Amen....but there are other harvest...ebed....wheat barley tares sheep goats grape harvest equals many harvest ...

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No. Your failure is understanding what the harvest represented. They were appointed feasts...and Jesus fulfilled EVERY ONE! The harvest is that of souls for the kingdom, that's what is represented!

dfw69 said:

In a sense we were dead in sin. .Because sin condemned us before God. But the gospel has made us live again....free from judgement of the law that condemned us. Because it condemned our sacrifice instead...setting us free ...

We trade bodies with Jesus...we take all of his status upon us.. .and we give him our bodies to the cross. We have died with him on the cross ..that was my body on the cross...he is my sacrifice...he paid our penalty of sin......we are free from the power of the law.

We are free of Adams sin in the garden....we have been redeemed

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Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Joh_3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (present tense)


1Jn_3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (present tense)



Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Where were these souls located when John saw them?
Could some of these souls include John the Baptist, and the Apostle Paul?
Were they beheaded for the witness of Jesus?


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. If taken purely literally, this verse destroys the pretrib doctrine.

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BABerean2 said:

Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Joh_3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (present tense)


1Jn_3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (present tense)



Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Where were these souls located when John saw them?
Could some of these souls include John the Baptist, and the Apostle Paul?
Were they beheaded for the witness of Jesus?


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. If taken purely literally, this verse destroys the pretrib doctrine.

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I don't think I can handle 2 preterist..at one time.

Yes at birth into the new covenant one is saved by faith so long as he remain in the faith and not shipwrecked his faith..a believer can miss the mark and fall away ...thus all the warnings of not being deceived

You are quoting two events and combining into one events ..There is our birth into the faith which is one event ....and our receiving the promise in the future which is foretold in revelation.....you are not correctly dividing the word of truth....and are false scripturalizing the events of rev that will come to pass which shows our receiving of the promises to be like Jesus. .

Your witness of the scriptures are clearly leading its adherants towards a false messiah...

ebedmelech said:

No. The last trump refers to God gathering His people. Go back to Numbers 10:2 where God tells Moses to make the trumpets and see what they were for. That's very different from the trumpet judgments...those trumpets call for judgment NOT the gathering of God's people.

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Ok... you are referring to Rosh Hashanah...when was Rosh Hashanah fulfilled by Christ?...it will not be fulfilled until the return of Jesus to earth who will gather the lost people of the house of Israel by the angels. And bring them back into their land portions.

Absolutely! Yet you're denying Peter saying in Acts 2 as he quoted Joel that the Jews were in the last days.

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We are still in the last days ebed...

The problem is you don't get that they were the last days for the Jews as God's covenant people which Daniel 12 tells you that very thing.

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Dan 12 reveals the abomination of desolation is set up in the last days ebed ....its a golem in the image of the final antichrist in the future temple.....during those days the true messiah returns. Jesus warns his people to be patient and wait upon the Lord. And not fall away to receive the false messiah

Furthermore read Hebrews 8:7-13 and understand what the writer is saying.

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I do understand that the new covenant is available to Israel as well as any nation who will believe by faith in the blood covenant made between God and the entire world...

But what you fail to understand is God is not finished with Israel yet...he is still seeking to save the lost...and one day Jesus will make that same new covenant with the whole house of Israel when he returns to offer them a second time the gospel and he will establish his kingdom on earth....a kingdom that has never been established ..not even by the Roman Catholic church....who is not the kingdom of heaven on earth...in order for the kingdom of heaven to be on earth Jesus must be reigning on the throne of David on earth...and even then this is not the new Jerusalem on earth...the new Jerusalem comes after the 1000 year reign..which hasn't even happened yet...

Read that in light of Hebrews 12:18-24.

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Hebrew is speaking of the new covenant that brings us to God's heavenly Zion ..and new Jerusalem a city in heaven.

If you follow the coming false messiah on earth you are throwing away your inheritance that awaits those who remain in the faith. Seek heaven ebed. Not new Jerusalem on earth to be self fulfilled by man ....if you seek the kingdom of heaven you will not be fooled by the coming false messiah...

You can think that...yet it's you without the foundation of scripture! Much of what you say is what you've been taught, you can't show it from scripture.

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I will show you scripture yet you cannot see it...Because of the way you interpret scripture...you are seeing through what you believe to be spiritual eyes.. but a spiritual man is someone who is able to see God's promises in the scriptures which are yet to be fulfilled and not already fulfilled ....faith leads to the actual literal receiving of the promises of God ...the spiritual man seeks these things and walks by faith to obtain them....


If you say you already have them ....then you are not walking by faith any longer.. you do not seek new Jerusalem above. Because you believe you are already new Jerusalem.... ..you reap what you sow...you do it to yourself. ...

Yet the scripture says "He who began a good work in you will be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT". Understand that!

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Why are you raising your voice at me?

Yes ebed ...he is faithful to complete all the promises if you remain in the faith ....but since you say....I have already obtained....you spiritualized away your faith toward the kingdom which is in heaven.. .

And now you are heading towards a false messiah.....

Not at all. It's you who don't get what Jesus was saying in John 12:27-33. Read that.

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"the Prince of this world is cast out"....Yes Jesus defeated Satan on the cross. Who deceived man in the garden of Eden causing man to be under sin ...and needing a redeemer....

but ebed....you should know Satan is not completely defeated...the evidence is all around you....he still the Prince and power of the air. .Paul warns of Satan still going about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour....

in this world there is false doctrines, war ,deceptions, evil deeds ,poverty, death murders ,evil governments persecutions ,homeless, propaganda, false information, lies, hypocrisy,...the list goes on and on ....but one day the true light will shine and darkness is defeated...when Jesus returns to heal the world from the lies of Satan...

So how are you MADE ALIVE in Christ? How many times does the scripture remind you you were dead in sin? WHy did Jesus say "Let the dead bury their dead" in Luke 9:59, 60? How about Romans 6:1-7 or Colossians 3:8-15?

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Why can't you and I work on one subject at a time?...

No. Your failure is understanding what the harvest represented. They were appointed feasts...and Jesus fulfilled EVERY ONE! The harvest is that of souls for the kingdom, that's what is represented!

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When did he fulfill Rosh Hashanah and tabernacles....

Actually ebed....all the feast are not completly fulfilled...

dfw69 said:

I don't think I can handle 2 preterist..at one time.

Yes at birth into the new covenant one is saved by faith so long as he remain in the faith and not shipwrecked his faith..a believer can miss the mark and fall away ...thus all the warnings of not being deceived

You are quoting two events and combining into one events ..There is our birth into the faith which is one event ....and our receiving the promise in the future which is foretold in revelation.....you are not correctly dividing the word of truth....and are false scripturalizing the events of rev that will come to pass which shows our receiving of the promises to be like Jesus. .

Your witness of the scriptures are clearly leading its adherants towards a false messiah...

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Can you explain Rev. 20:5 in a way that makes it agree with the pretrib doctrine?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( If taken purely literally, this verse destroys the pretrib doctrine.)



Throwing out the word "preterist" is not really an explanation.

A person who accepts anyone except Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, is accepting a false Messiah.

Anyone who promotes a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, with renewed animal sacrifices is setting the stage for a false Messiah.
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BABerean2 said:

Can you explain Rev. 20:5 in a way that makes it agree with the pretrib doctrine?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( If taken purely literally, this verse destroys the pretrib doctrine.)

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the first resurrection is found in verse 4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years...

They came to life....at an appointed time in the future...to reign with Jesus ...who will reign on earth when he establishes his kingdom in Jerusalem...notice who these are referring to those who went through the tribulation and are resurrected all future...

But pretrib is not spoken of in this verse....this is the end promise for those who are willing to reject the final antichrist

Why pretrib not found here?....Because it has already happened before the events beginning in rev 6 on ....

A person who accepts anyone except Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, is accepting a false Messiah.

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Yes ....and there will be false messiahs yet to come who will mislead the world...Jesus warns this clearly...

Anyone who promotes a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, with renewed animal sacrifices is setting the stage for a false Messiah.

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Yet the bible warns us of these things...

Judaism teaches the rebuilding of the temple and a messiah who will be a man to lead Israel back to Judaism....this will one day take place ..Jesus said they will receive another who comes in his own name.....

But preterism may set the stage for a belief of a false messiah the final antichrist and man of sin who comes in judgement to judge Israel for her backsliding back to the law...

And the real Jesus will come to save her....and set up Ezekiel temple which is a new covenant temple..

Preterism is very deceptive ...

There are two types of actual resurrections ...

One is the body comes to life and is able to die again....and needs
help to remain alive. Like a tree of life. The fruit has a chemical that gives everlasting life. ...like a fountain of youth. But in this case a fountain of life.

There is another resurrection where a man is given the power of God to become the sons of God ....able to live forever sustained by the power of God flowing within them...to be like Jesus



It's not clear to me if the first resurrection in rev 20:5 is refering to life of the human body....or life of the body to become like Jesus.

But if it's talking about the life of the human body....then those who have gotten the victory over the final antichrist will be given a second chance to follow the gospel under the new government established by Jesus himself ...But in this case each one will remain true and never fall away...

dfw69 said:

the first resurrection is found in verse 4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years...

They came to life....at an appointed time in the future...to reign with Jesus ...who will reign on earth when he establishes his kingdom in Jerusalem...notice who these are referring to those who went through the tribulation and are resurrected all future...

But pretrib is not spoken of in this verse....this is the end promise for those who are willing to reject the final antichrist

Why pretrib not found here?....Because it has already happened before the events beginning in rev 6 on ....






Yes ....and there will be false messiahs yet to come who will mislead the world...Jesus warns this clearly...



Yet the bible warns us of these things...

Judaism teaches the rebuilding of the temple and a messiah who will be a man to lead Israel back to Judaism....this will one day take place ..Jesus said they will receive another who comes in his own name.....

But preterism may set the stage for a belief of a false messiah the final antichrist and man of sin who comes in judgement to judge Israel for her backsliding back to the law...

And the real Jesus will come to save her....and set up Ezekiel temple which is a new covenant temple..

Preterism is very deceptive ...

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Since I do not believe that Christ returned in 70 AD or that the Book of Revelation is past, I am not a preterist.

Keep that mud for someone else, that it will stick to.

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"Can you explain Rev. 20:5 in a way that makes it agree with the pretrib doctrine?"


Here is the explanation

The pre-tribulation ecclesia are the ones on thrones who will rule with the Lord over His millennial kingdom

The others are the tribulation martyrs resurrected at the end of the period .... these will also rule with the Lord

Both groups have experienced the first type of resurrection to immortality and eternal life

But the rest of the dead of humanity will be resurrected to the second death and destruction at the end of the Lord's 1000 year millennial kingdom

This second death will have no power over those who have experienced the first resurrection to immortality

Straightshot said:

"Can you explain Rev. 20:5 in a way that makes it agree with the pretrib doctrine?"


Here is the explanation

The pre-tribulation ecclesia are the ones on thrones who will rule with the Lord over His millennial kingdom

The others are the tribulation martyrs resurrected at the end of the period .... these will also rule with the Lord

Both groups have experienced the first type of resurrection to immortality and eternal life

But the rest of the dead of humanity will be resurrected to the second death and destruction at the end of the Lord's 1000 year millennial kingdom

This second death will have no power over those who have experienced the first resurrection to immortality

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So you are saying there is more than one "first resurrection".

I gave you the answer related to Revelation 20:4

There are two others of the first .... The Lord's own and that of His two prophets

BABerean2 said:

Since I do not believe that Christ returned in 70 AD or that the Book of Revelation is past, I am not a preterist.

Keep that mud for someone else, that it will stick to.

.

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.sorry I did not know that ...I thought you were. I am not preterist either.

Straightshot said:

"Can you explain Rev. 20:5 in a way that makes it agree with the pretrib doctrine?"


Here is the explanation

The pre-tribulation ecclesia are the ones on thrones who will rule with the Lord over His millennial kingdom

The others are the tribulation martyrs resurrected at the end of the period .... these will also rule with the Lord

Both groups have experienced the first type of resurrection to immortality and eternal life

But the rest of the dead of humanity will be resurrected to the second death and destruction at the end of the Lord's 1000 year millennial kingdom

This second death will have no power over those who have experienced the first resurrection to immortality

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It seems to me that rev 20:5 is speaking a blessing or a promise on only those who have gotten the victory over the idol of the beast that will be placed in the future temple....

That promise is a resurrection....but what kind of a resurrection straight shot?

Will this particular resurrection be like Jiras daughter and Lazarus raised from the dead to live in the earthly kingdom?...or are they given new bodies to be like Jesus to be able to go to heaven as Jesus did?..

I think a case could be made for these to be raised to life to live on earth for 1000 years...they will live in paradise on earth....an Eden...they will need the tree of life to sustain them ....as Adam and eve needed the tree of life to live 1000 years

The church is already gone....this is not the rapture of the church ...the church has already recieved her glory....you follow me?

"Keep that mud for someone else, that it will stick to."

Absolutely .... stick it to the preterist

"The church is already gone....this is not the rapture of the church ...the church has already recieved her glory....you follow me?"


Didn't say it was

It is the post-tribuation idea that touts a "rapture" just after Armageddon

The idea is flat wrong

Revelation 20:4 is not this [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1] .... because the event takes place before the tribulation begins for those on thrones

There are just two sets of resurrected ones in the passage

Those on thrones [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

The others [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13]

Straightshot said:

"Keep that mud for someone else, that it will stick to."

Absolutely .... stick it to the preterist

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Lol ..I thought he was a preterist.

There is a bit of confusion regarding the "barean" on the forum

There are three with different logos

Might even be the same dude .... people do this thing .... for the purpose of confusing others

Straightshot said:

"The church is already gone....this is not the rapture of the church ...the church has already recieved her glory....you follow me?"


Didn't say it was

It is the post-tribuation idea that touts a "rapture" just after Armageddon

The idea is flat wrong

Revelation 20:4 is not this [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1] .... because the event takes place before the tribulation begins for those on thrones

There are just two sets of resurrected ones in the passage

Those on thrones [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

The others [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13]

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That right but I may have goofed in my beliefs. ....

It is believed by some that the first resurrection is the resurrection of all the saints who are saved ....But I don't believe that's correct ....

The resurrection of the church is entirely different than the first resurrection of rev 20:5....

During the resurrection of the church whose home is heaven....they are changed into immortality....the rapture is definitely before the last 7 years ....


But this first resurrection of rev 20:5 is an entirely different resurrection.....where those who have gotten the victory over the beast returns to earth raised from the dead....But nothing says these victors are changed into the body of Christ...But that they remain on earth to live. ....