Gay Marriage Referendum in Ireland today...

Sword of the Lord

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Pope Francis is considering the possibility of admitted divorced and remarried people to the communion table, according to multiple press reports. Never say never. :)

After all, many people thought a Jesuit would never be Pope...
Can this be done and supported scripturally?
 
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Rhamiel

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I just do not want people to go to hell for adultery (and divorce and remarriage is a form of adultery) or homosexual actions, or any other sin :)

just telling people that they are ok while they are sick with sin
this is not love
this patronizing sentimentality and it does not lead to the person having a fuller relationship with Christ
it leaves the person dead in sin
 
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Fish and Bread

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Can this be done and supported scripturally?

It doesn't have to be. Unlike your signature file, the church doesn't believe that no doctrine is permitted without the five solas. :) In fact, I'm pretty sure we don't believe in most of the five solas, and particularly not in sola scriptura. ;) St. Peter and the Popes together with the world's bishops have been given the keys to the kingdom and the power to bind and loose, and that *is* essentially from scripture.

Having said that, there is a place in the bible where Jesus explicitly says that people do not commit adultery if they divorce because of the unfaithfulness of their spouse. Also, there is an interesting difference in biblical translations when it comes to Jesus' admonitions on this subject. Some translate passages as "divorce", others translate passages as a man "putting away his wife". In Jesus' time, these two subjects may have had the same meaning. They do not now.

In the old days, a man putting away his wife, or divorcing her, almost always meant that she was left penniless and homeless on the street and, in the eyes of some less evolved people of those times, "damaged goods". Women did not have the same rights as men and in many countries could not hold jobs or properties. So, when a man divorced his wife back then, he was essentially condemning her to living on the street as a homeless waif in some cases, who might easily die of starvation or exposure. In most modern first world countries, women have more rights and opportunities, there's alimony, there's a social safety net (Well, maybe not when the pro-austerity forces in Europe and the Republicans in the United States get through with us), etc..

Is it possible that in their role of interpreting Jesus' teachings for the modern world and in progressing them forward to their logical conclusions that the Pope might change his policy on divorce in light of what it means in modern society relative to the similar but different institution Jesus was discussing? Or simply say it's a sin but you can be forgiven for it without having to divorce your second wife? Perhaps. There's always hope.

Not that I like divorce, mind you. I just don't like punishing people forever.

Further, secular divorce is different from religious divorce, and the Church's acceptance of secular divorce laws in some countries without trying to overturn them even while teaching against divorce in a religious context provides a precedent for them eventually accepting civil gay marriages while teaching against them in a religious context.

"Faith is a dynamic and ever-changing process, not some fixed body of truth that exists outside our world and our understanding. God's truth may be fixed and unchanging, but our comprehension of that truth will always be partial and flawed at best." -Bishop Gene Robinson
 
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Rhamiel

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F&B, there is nothing in the Bible that says the man who divorces his wife for unfaithfulness is free to remarry

if you look at the practices of the Early Church, you will see that second marriages for even for widows and widowers, were discouraged
many priests who were married lived celibate marriages

you are right, the Church is not Sola Scripture
we believe in the Bible and Tradition
and Tradition does not allow for divorce and remarriage :)
and the Bible clearly calls it adultery
 
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Fish and Bread

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You know, a priest once pointed out to me that Moses got the stone tablets with the 10 commandments on them, there was a big problem with desert nomadic tribes and how they treated their elderly. Some tribes would just tell them they were not useful to society anymore, and pressure them to wander out into the desert and die alone to stop draining resources (Kind of like some elements of Republican Party's response to anyone who can't work or find a job ;) ). So, in the context of those times, "Honor thy mother and thy father" may really have been an admonition to respect all human life and to take care of their elderly instead of tossing them aside. It may not have been, as it is often perceived in more modern times, telling people they most obey everything their mother and their father tell them.

I think there's a lot of stuff in the bible like that.
 
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Rhamiel

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Matthew 19:9

well as you pointed out
we are not sola scripture

the Church has read that in light of the entire scripture and has rightly judged that does not mean that the divorced person is free to remarry
even divorce for no good reason is a sin, that verse is about when it is appropriate to divorce, not so much about getting remarried
 
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LivingWordUnity

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F&B, there is nothing in the Bible that says the man who divorces his wife for unfaithfulness is free to remarry
People who claim that are using a bad translation of Scripture.

Here's a question about it that was answered by EWTN:

inappropriate contenteia and Moichao Question from Don on 5/15/2007:
Father Trigilio. Last week, I listened to you on Catholic Answers Live. A caller asked about the 'exception clause' in Matthew (5:32 and 19:9)relating to divorce. You explained that the real word used was the Greek word 'moichao' which means 'unnatural'.

You further explained that the Greek word 'inappropriate contenteia', meaning 'adultery' was not used. The conclusion was that there has been a complete mistranslation of the Greek and the 'exception clause' really should be, "unless the marriage is unlawful", rather than "except for fornication", or "except for unchastity."

Your explanation was one that I've never heard before. I decided to check with the old Catholic Encyclopedia. Under the word 'divorce', it discusses the 'exception clause' as 'except for fornication.'

This has left me very confused. Your explanation on Catholic Answers Live made a great deal of sense. However, it does not align with the old Catholic Encyclopedia. Could you clarify this and perhaps give a reference that I can read? Thank you. Don

Answer by Fr. John Trigilio on 5/28/2007:
I checked the Catholic Answers audio archive and what I actually said was that the original Greek text of the Gospel (Matthew 5:32) uses the word inappropriate contentEIA which means 'illict or unnatural relations' as the only exception to the permanence of marriage (which in reality means there was no valid marriage if it was an unnatural union, as in the case of incest or homosexuality). The Greek word MOICHEIA means 'adultery' and that word is NOT used by the sacred author who wrote the Gospel. Hence, adultery, while still a serious and mortal sin, does not itself invalidate a marriage (unless the person NEVER intended to enter a faithful union from the day of their wedding vows.)

Jesus uses MOICHEIA to describe 'adultery' when He says someone who looks at another's wife commits adultery, but He only uses inappropriate contentEIA once to describe the illict and unnatural sexual relationship, which was my point when I answered on the air last month.

Cheating on your wife or husband is adultery (moicheia) and it is sinful and unlawful. Marrying or attempting marriage with someone you are not allowed to marry because of consanguinity (they are too closely related by blood) or because it is unnatural (incest or homosexual union) is also sinful and unlawful but it is also inappropriate contentEIA which means it is INVALID (because it is unnatural). Being sinful is not enough to invalidate a marriage union. Unnatural prevents the valid marriage union from ever existing in the first place.

(Source)​
 
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dude99

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I just do not want people to go to hell for adultery (and divorce and remarriage is a form of adultery) or homosexual actions, or any other sin :)

just telling people that they are ok while they are sick with sin
this is not love
this patronizing sentimentality and it does not lead to the person having a fuller relationship with Christ
it leaves the person dead in sin
Amen!!!
 
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Catherineanne

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You're right but your analysis is too narrow. What the referendum vote reflects is the loss of moral authority for any and every kind of authority in our culture and probably many other cultures around the world. Secular education and rampant cultural individualism feed egocentric morality and that means that authoritative moral declarations from church, state, philosophy, school, and family are routinely questioned or ignored.

It may be slightly off topic, but that moral authority was not lost, imo. It was abdicated.

To have moral authority only calls for having high morality oneself. It isn't rocket science.
 
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MoreCoffee

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It may be slightly off topic, but that moral authority was not lost, imo. It was abdicated.

To have moral authority only calls for having high morality oneself. It isn't rocket science.
You are right when dealing with individuals; a person cannot have moral authority if he (or she) lives an immoral life. Thus the moral standing of the person is shown by the morals by which they live. But with the Church moral standing depends on God and not on the individuals who fail to live up to the teaching of Christ which is the teaching of the Church. Thus the moral standing of the Church is shown by the moral standing of God who gave the Church that which she teaches - even when many who ought to be teachers and good examples fail to be what they are called to be by God.
 
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ebia

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You are right when dealing with individuals; a person cannot have moral authority if he (or she) lives an immoral life. Thus the moral standing of the person is shown by the morals by which they live. But with the Church moral standing depends on God and not on the individuals who fail to live up to the teaching of Christ which is the teaching of the Church. Thus the moral standing of the Church is shown by the moral standing of God who gave the Church that which she teaches - even when many who ought to be teachers and good examples fail to be what they are called to be by God.
well, you can claim that you still have authority from God while not acting morally yourself. But you'll tend to find people don't take you seriously. And scripture, it seems to me, acknowledges that pretty well
 
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ebia

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I just do not want people to go to hell for adultery (and divorce and remarriage is a form of adultery) or homosexual actions, or any other sin :)

just telling people that they are ok while they are sick with sin
this is not love
this patronizing sentimentality and it does not lead to the person having a fuller relationship with Christ
it leaves the person dead in sin
Francis has a track record of realising that in much of the world people's lives aren't that forward. That people simply aren't in a position to get everything straight first, then come to communion. Ever getting everything straight is beyond them.

Whichever way things end up going on pastorally allowing the remarried to communion (which is not saying it's okay), he'll be thinking more in terms of the poor of Argentina than rich westerners.
 
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Armoured

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Oh I would love to end divorce
I do not really know how to go about that though, I have not seen many places put up votes to see if divorce should be accepted
or I do not see judges making rulings on if divorce should be legal in a country

it is like WWII
we did not just go right into Berlin on the first day of the War
we fought in North Africa, we went to France and Italy
you fight on the front lines
Uhuh.
 
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frenchdefense

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I just do not want people to go to hell for adultery (and divorce and remarriage is a form of adultery) or homosexual actions, or any other sin :)

just telling people that they are ok while they are sick with sin
this is not love
this patronizing sentimentality and it does not lead to the person having a fuller relationship with Christ
it leaves the person dead in sin

I have a problem with this. I always have. To me it seem like bullying wrapped in a veneer of caring.

An excuse, if you will, to infer in peoples lives under the guise of "christian love"

How about if we find out what your favorite sins are and I'll get a bunch of homosexuals to get up in your grill about them ?

Would the be cool with you ?
 
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Rhamiel

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I have a problem with this. I always have. To me it seem like bullying wrapped in a veneer of caring.

An excuse, if you will, to infer in peoples lives under the guise of "christian love"

How about if we find out what your favorite sins are and I'll get a bunch of homosexuals to get up in your grill about them ?

Would the be cool with you ?

an excuse to interfere in peoples lives?
why would I want to interfere in peoples lives though?

do you know who had the most advanced cultures in the Ancient World?
the City States of Greece, Imperial Rome and Han China
now my knowledge of Han China is sorely lacking, but most Westerners are aware of the wonders of Classical Greece and Rome
the theatre, political life, philosophy, legal codes, military strategies, the sciences
even religion, G.K. Chesterton said that while Pagan Rome was violent to Christians, that the relatively "gentle paganism" of the Romans was more conducive to the spread of Christianity

I seem to be meandering off topic
well the Greeks and Romans, with their art and laws and science, were more then ok with homosexual actions
Greek pederasty, Roman orgies

and they had an amazing culture

my point is, if I was not concerned for the state of their soul, I would not really care what gay people did
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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Take Up Your Cross
23And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.24"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.…
Romans 13:10

  1. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.





Take Up Your Cross
23And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.24"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.…
 
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frenchdefense

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an excuse to interfere in peoples lives?
why would I want to interfere in peoples lives though?

You're the one who brought it up you tell me.

do you know who had the most advanced cultures in the Ancient World?
the City States of Greece, Imperial Rome and Han China
now my knowledge of Han China is sorely lacking, but most Westerners are aware of the wonders of Classical Greece and Rome
the theatre, political life, philosophy, legal codes, military strategies, the sciences
even religion, G.K. Chesterton said that while Pagan Rome was violent to Christians, that the relatively "gentle paganism" of the Romans was more conducive to the spread of Christianity

...and institutionalize pederasty, brutal imperialism, slavery, gladiatorial games, misogyny and some very gruesome legal practices including torture of non-citizen witnesses to ensure "truthfulness during their testimony.

But. what is your point exactly, one the topic were are discussing ?

I seem to be meandering off topic
well the Greeks and Romans, with their art and laws and science, were more then ok with homosexual actions
Greek pederasty, Roman orgies

and they had an amazing culture
...ok.....

my point is, if I was not concerned for the state of their soul, I would not really care what gay people did[/QUOTE]

....and I"m still stand by my original post since you don't seem to have addressed it.
 
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Rhamiel

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I have a problem with this. I always have. To me it seem like bullying wrapped in a veneer of caring.

An excuse, if you will, to infer in peoples lives under the guise of "christian love"

How about if we find out what your favorite sins are and I'll get a bunch of homosexuals to get up in your grill about them ?

Would the be cool with you ?

all of us are called to correct our brothers and sister
to encourage them practice the virtues and avoid sins

as you will see on here, whenever I talk to someone who struggles with SSA, I am not really "up in their grill" I try to be respectful and loving

it is odd that you divide people up by sexual preference
that should not matter when it comes to our Christian duty to love each other
but if some brother or sister in Christ who struggles with SSA held me to accountability on my sins, I would not resent them

that has happened before, one of my friends on Facebook is attracted to both men and women, and she has called me out when I have made mistakes

she is a very good Christian and I respect her very much, she understands natural law and knows that homosexual actions are sinful

a lot of the time, this "up in your grill" attitude that some people get is not about holding people responsible, but rather as a way to deflect criticism
 
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parousia70

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Jesus referred often to the Old Testament, and said that He didn't come to abolish it, but to fulfill it.
....Leviticus 20:13 states, "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination…." To suggest that this verse is invalid today is to advocate the dangerous practice of redefining or deleting what God has said.

So you are saying He didn't quite Fulfill THAT part of the OT then?

Homosexuality and has no place among professing Christians.

So you are saying the Work of Christ on the cross is insufficient for the redemption of the soul of the homosexual?

Yes now it is a common believe that gays were born that way, but I do not believe it so. Yet the bible is clear we are born of sin and Jesus Christ who defeated sins of the world and is the saviour of the world.

Well, He either defeated them or He didn't.
Your position on that is unclear.. on one hand you Say Christ, Fulfilled, Defeated, etc... yet on the other Hand you seem to imply He really wasn't very successful.
 
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