Gay Marriage Referendum in Ireland today...

S.ilvio

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Ireland votes today on whether to extend marriage to gay couples.

Opinion polls suggest it will be carried by at least 60-40.

Personally I am voting No and think it may be a lot closer than 60-40, but I think it will still be passed.
 
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S.ilvio

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my parents just got back from a cruise to England, Scotland, and Ireland, they said in the Irish country side they saw lots of posters for "vote against gay marriage" and in Dublin it is "vote for gay marriage"
Ths is very true.

Dublin, where I live is pro gay marriage. The big question is will Dublin vote in large enough numbers to get it across the line.

We will know in about 18 hours...
 
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High Fidelity

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I would vote yes. I think civil rights should be applied equally to everyone. Churches could of course still choose who they want to marry or not marry based upon any criteria they choose, just as today.

Is that for certain, though?

And even if it is, that'll probably be the next vote.

If a bakery can't refuse a gay couple then why would a church be allowed to?
 
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LoAmmi

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Is that for certain, though?

And even if it is, that'll probably be the next vote.

If a bakery can't refuse a gay couple then why would a church be allowed to?

I can't speak for Ireland, but let's use another example for the US:

If a bakery can't refuse a white woman with a black man, why would a church be allowed to?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96577

It seems like they can. Religious institutions in the US have an exemption to discrimination laws that businesses do not have. They are allowed to discriminate.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Is that for certain, though?

In the US, yes. Our first amendment to the constitution carves out a special protection for churches. Churches reject marrying heterosexuals all the time for reasons ranging from psychological immaturity to previous divorces to basically any reason they want to. We even have precedent for churches being allowed to deny marriage to people who are protected against discrimination when it comes to employment and patronage at businesses. There are independent congregationalists churches in the south that occasionally make the news for refusing to marry interracial couples, and no legal action is taken against them.

What legalizing gay marriage means in the US is that gays can get married by a judge at a court house, and by any religion that chooses to perform gay marriages (Like the Unitarian Universalists, who endorse gay marriage). Religions that don't want to perform gay marriages don't have to. We're seeing that they don't have to right now, as 30+ states now have gay marriage and there has not been even one case I've heard of where a church that refuses to perform them gets in legal trouble.

I am not familiar enough with Irish law to know if it's the same there or not. I would assume so, but I don't know for sure. One would think the Catholic Church would still have enough pull in Ireland to get an exemption if it's not explicitly granted .

And even if it is, that'll probably be the next vote.

In the US, a vote to force religions to marry gay people against their beliefs would be invalided in court. The constitution trumps other law.

If a bakery can't refuse a gay couple then why would a church be allowed to?

A bakery is a public accommodation, like a restaurant or a hotel. They do not have the same special protections we afford to churches and other religious meeting places performing religious rituals.
 
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High Fidelity

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I can't speak for Ireland, but let's use another example for the US:

If a bakery can't refuse a white woman with a black man, why would a church be allowed to?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96577

It seems like they can. Religious institutions in the US have an exemption to discrimination laws that businesses do not have. They are allowed to discriminate.

Interesting. Given how conservative Ireland was, it wouldn't surprise me if something like that exists as well. One can only hope.
 
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High Fidelity

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In the US, yes. Our first amendment to the constitution carves out a special protection for churches. Churches reject marrying heterosexuals all the time for reasons ranging from psychological maturity to previous divorces to basically any reason they want to. We even have precedent for churches being allowed to deny marriage to people who are protected against discrimination when it comes to employment and patronage at businesses. There are independent congregationalists churches in the south that occasionally make the news for refusing to marry interracial couples, and no legal action is taken against them.

What legalizing gay marriage means in the US is that gays can get married by a judge at a court house, and by any religion that chooses to perform gay marriages (Like the Unitarian Universalists, who endorse gay marriage). Religions that don't want to perform gay marriages don't have to. We're seeing that they don't have to right now, as 30+ states now have gay marriage and there has not been even one case I've heard of where a church that refuses to perform them gets in legal trouble.

I am not familiar enough with Irish law to know if it's the same there or not. I would assume so, but I don't know for sure. One would think the Catholic Church would still have enough pull in Ireland to get an exemption if it's not explicitly granted .



In the US, a vote to force religions to marry gay people against their beliefs would be invalided in court. The constitution trumps other law.



A bakery is a public accommodation, like a restaurant or a hotel. They do not have the same special protections we afford to churches and other religious meeting places performing religious rituals.

I appreciate the long reply but I am just leaving, if you'd be a gentleman and PM me a reminder to check it later, that'd be great.
 
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Rhamiel

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In the US, a vote to force religions to marry gay people against their beliefs would be invalided in court. The constitution trumps other law.
I am not so much worried about a vote in that regard
I am worried about activist judges forcing churches to comply

and you are right, the courts have not forced churches to marry mixed race couples in the past
but things change very quickly nowadays
 
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Antigone

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Surprising numbers. Unfortunate numbers.

What's unfortunate is that this is coming from Patrick Bateman.

I am not so much worried about a vote in that regard
I am worried about activist judges forcing churches to comply

Gay marriage has been legal over here since 2001, coming up on a decade and a half now, and nobody has even attempted to force churces to perform same-sex marriages.
 
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Rhamiel

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Gay marriage has been legal over here since 2001, coming up on a decade and a half now, and nobody has even attempted to force churces to perform same-sex marriages.

ok, maybe you are right?
maybe not

either way, it is not a good thing
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Well if Ireland has fallen, I struggle to see many other countries standing a chance.
It's a sign of the times, and it is just as Scripture describes the world's rebellion just before the end. Satan has been unleashed and knows that his time is short.
 
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