Does (Institutional) Christianity REALLY Hate Jesus (teachings)?

RDKirk

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True, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8-10 (the eating meat sacrificed to idols section). There can be differences without the division and quarrels like you bring up. Read the Greek there in 1 Cor 1 and you'll see ego, ego, ego, ego. That is a lot of ego. Study how Paul usually uses the word ego. "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer ego who lives." He tends to use it for the sin or flesh nature.

The two passages that I brought up didn't deplore the differences in thinking of nonessential doctrine, but the unloving nature of some.

I'll agree that as we grow in Christ we will become closer in doctrine, but are you asking every member of the body to be mature immediately?

One last point. If we agree perfectly on all things, then which non-essential wins? How do we determine that?

In Christ,

I'm talking about a home church concept that teaches small, independent home-based churches as the ideal form and large congregations as aberrations.

The original church in Jerusalem had thousands of members, yet the members most frequently met in homes. They considered the entire group of several thousand as all part of the same congregation--the choice of meeting places was a matter of practicality and necessity.

In order for the Body of Christ to carry out Jesus' Mark 10 promise, as well as Paul's 2 Corinthians 8 instructions (seen operational in Acts 2 and Acts 4), the Body of Christ needs sufficient numbers of members so that all gifts are available.
 
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muddleglum

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I'm talking about a home church concept that teaches small, independent home-based churches as the ideal form and large congregations as aberrations.
Isn't that off topic on this thread? What I said was pertinent to the thread. (And would be pertinent to your subject, too.)

Mark 10 promise
Typo? I stopped at the first promise I found, not being very good at mind reading:
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the
children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to
such as these.
 
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timewerx

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Matthew 19:13 is when during His ministry?

THe point is that public prayers are far few in between.

THere's a lot more examples of private, often secretive prayers of Jesus but the least practiced by Jesus is the one being encouraged in the church - corporate praying.


If we based it on Matthew 6 then private/secret prayers are clearly the winner here. Jesus must have a reason why he broke his own rule, unfortunately, he didn't explain himself...
 
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RDKirk

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Isn't that off topic on this thread? What I said was pertinent to the thread. (And would be pertinent to your subject, too.)

Well, a tangent about home churches had started, and that's what I was referring to.


Typo? I stopped at the first promise I found, not being very good at mind reading:
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the
children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to
such as these.

So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.

That promise is fulfilled in the members of the Body of Christ.
 
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RDKirk

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THe point is that public prayers are far few in between.

THere's a lot more examples of private, often secretive prayers of Jesus but the least practiced by Jesus is the one being encouraged in the church - corporate praying.


If we based it on Matthew 6 then private/secret prayers are clearly the winner here. Jesus must have a reason why he broke his own rule, unfortunately, he didn't explain himself...

And so why is the Lord's prayer in the plural?
 
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muddleglum

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THe point is that public prayers are far few in between.

THere's a lot more examples of private, often secretive prayers of Jesus but the least practiced by Jesus is the one being encouraged in the church - corporate praying.


If we based it on Matthew 6 then private/secret prayers are clearly the winner here. Jesus must have a reason why he broke his own rule, unfortunately, he didn't explain himself...
So you agree that the proposition that public prayers were never done by Jesus is false.
That means that you agree that the proposition in the initial post, that Jesus was against all public prayers is false.

This doesn't destroy the initial proposition, which is the subject/topic of the thread, however. That remains to be proved or disproved by further expansion.
Agreed?
 
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Gospelutionary

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What you brought up wasn't the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Muddle, if you look more closely at the OP and the thoughts that developed from it you'll notice that I didn't say that this teaching ALONE (about private instead of public prayer) was the gospel in its entirety, just a part of it, since Jesus is the ONE who brought us the gospel or "good news", and it is all found in those 4 books that have actually come to be called "the gospels".

However, would you agree with me that Jesus' teachings are the gospel? If, in your mind, his teachings are NOT the gospel, what is?





I'm specifying exactly the same thing both Jesus and Paul specified. Love your neighbor. That proceeds only from the Gospel. Until Christ controls you, you will not be able to agape you neighbor.

And until Christ controls you, you will not be able to consider the radically economic ramifications that "love your neighbor as yourself" actually entails. I'll give you a hint though---123456! (1st John 2:3-6) as well as 1st John 3:16-18. Talk about some practical agape!! ;0)


If the age is spiritually dead, wasn't it the same in the apostle's day and age?
It was a bit more of a "green tree".


Dunno if you call an Amish or Beachy Amish church institutionally derived, but in the groups I know they generally wouldn't bat an eye.

But would they actually PRACTICE these kinds of teachings, Muddle (e.g. "sell ALL you have and give to the poor")? That's what "loving your neighbor as if they were you" looks like from Jesus' perspective.


Luke 12:32 is in context of: Luke 12:21: "So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." 22: And He said to His disciples, "For this reason I say to you,...
This is also in the more general context of Jesus' contact with rich people like Lazarus.
Luke 11, 12, 14? what specifically?
If you read the specific passages in Luke that I gave you'll notice that Jesus isn't singling out any specific rich individuals like he did in Luke 18. Read these and see for yourself how Jesus was addressing EVERYONE (e.g. "whosoever") with the same thing he said to people like Lazarus--Luke 11:41; 12:22-34; 14:25-33

AFTER reading these specific passages, please feel free to share with us how it is that somehow Jesus didn't mean we should follow these teachings and who (if not Him) we should turn to as the way, truth, and life.

The situation in Acts 2 and 4 is too complex to develop on this thread.
Not really. It lines up exactly with the passages above from the mouth of Christ. However, I can imagine how many people would hope and wish that it weren't so, and that's where much of so-called christian scholarship enters---to save us from Jesus' actual teachings!

Also when you use Acts 4. Don't forget the context contains:
Acts 5:4: "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Don't worry Muddle, I didn't forget that. But what you seem to fail to notice is how it actually strengthens the impact of Jesus' command to sell all and give to the poor IF you want to be a disciple/follower of his. All Peter was saying is that IF they freely chose to follow Jesus then that is what was expected from those who made that voluntary choice to make him their lord.


Oh, He meant it when He said, "So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
BTW, did you eat lunch? Who paid for it? How do you reconcile the verses?
Not sure how that relates but I'm sure you'll be happy to skip over some of the other important things I just shared to tell me! ;0)


Nope. Marx, I believe, explained it as primitive Communism. There is a difference.
Fine, let's call it primitive communism. Happy now?


I was out pointing from the Christian perspective that complaining won't help. I was pointing out from my own experience that leaving won't help either. That goes more broadly than what I wrote in my post. Often the Hutterites, for instance, are wary about people coming in. Those usually exit fairly quickly.
I still don't see how you equate challenging what passes for Christianity with complaining. Have you ever or do you still find yourself challenging certain doctrines from time to time? And why not just join up with any old church you randomly selected out of a phonebook? My guess is that you have some issues/challenges with other denominations which is why you don't accept or align yourself with them. True or false, Muddle? Some would probably damn you to hell for not joining their particular "flavor" or denomination and suggest that you might as well sit down, shut up & swallow camels too.


I merely pointed out that you didn't understand where Jesus came from: Love God and your neighbor as yourself. If you are focusing to love God then you will not be focusing to boost yourself as a God, which is the heart of what praying like that verse means. You can go to your closet and pray about how good you are, too. That type of self-worship came up in another place.

'Sides, check post #2. Thesunisout got here long before me.

And I'm also merely pointing out that you have yet to realize what living by faith and loving your neighbor as yourself actually means. This has nothing to do with anyone boosting themselves up as God---it's all about letting God--Jesus--call ALL the shots, even when it looks like complete madness from an economic standpoint!
 
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muddleglum

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Muddle, if you look more closely at the OP and the thoughts that developed from it you'll notice that I didn't say that this teaching ALONE (about private instead of public prayer) was the gospel in its entirety, just a part of it, since Jesus is the ONE who brought us the gospel or "good news", and it is all found in those 4 books that have actually come to be called "the gospels".

However, would you agree with me that Jesus' teachings are the gospel? If, in your mind, his teachings are NOT the gospel, what is?
I would say that picking up all the pieces of Jesus' practical teachings and placing them all together would only get you another Law to follow by works. It has already been shown that your picking prayer was actually cherry-picking verses and misunderstanding Christ's intent.

I would point out BTW, that you seemed to miss my point anyway, but I'll let that pass.

If you read the specific passages in Luke that I gave you'll notice that Jesus isn't singling out any specific rich individuals like he did in Luke 18. Read these and see for yourself how Jesus was addressing EVERYONE (e.g. "whosoever") with the same thing he said to people like Lazarus--Luke 11:41; 12:22-34; 14:25-33
I'll skip the first passage, because you don't seem to understand it in context. As to the other two, go back to the Sermon on the Mount where He says to be perfect, even as the Father in heaven is perfect. What did Christ mean? Have you attained to that? Isn't it what will drive what those other two verses say?

AFTER reading these specific passages, please feel free to share with us how it is that somehow Jesus didn't mean we should follow these teachings and who (if not Him) we should turn to as the way, truth, and life.
Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?

Not really. It lines up exactly with the passages above from the mouth of Christ. However, I can imagine how many people would hope and wish that it weren't so, and that's where much of so-called christian scholarship enters---to save us from Jesus' actual teachings!
Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?

Don't worry Muddle,
Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart? And by the way, my name is Muddleglum. Is there any reason you cannot accept that as my name?

I didn't forget that. But what you seem to fail to notice is how it actually strengthens the impact of Jesus' command to sell all and give to the poor IF you want to be a disciple/follower of his. All Peter was saying is that IF they freely chose to follow Jesus then that is what was expected from those who made that voluntary choice to make him their lord.
Peter didn't say that and quite rightfully too. You'll notice that in 4:34 the tenses of "sold" and "brought" are present active participle and imperfect active indicative respectively? That mean that AS there was need. If there was no need, then they didn't sell, but retained the land. I keep thinking you are saying to sell all right off, find the poor (and note that in this case it was only the poor of the Church, not all the poor) and give them all the money. You are saying giving to the apostles was the same thing as giving to the poor? That isn't literally what Jesus said, but that's fine. We should be careful to understand the logos of the passage, not just follow the words without understanding.

Not sure how that relates but
Why not answer the question? It might lead you to realize that we aren't that much different. Did you give all to the poor? All? Then how do you eat? Could you tell me how you, yourself, follow those verses? You might say exactly the same thing I do.

I'm sure you'll be happy to skip over some of the other important things I just shared to tell me! ;0)
Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?

Fine, let's call it primitive communism. Happy now?
Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?

I still don't see how you equate challenging what passes for Christianity with complaining. Have you ever or do you still find yourself challenging certain doctrines from time to time? And why not just join up with any old church you randomly selected out of a phonebook?
There are ways to bring things up and I don't complain nor switch people's names around to denigrate them. Speak the truth in love.

My guess is that you have some issues/challenges with other denominations which is why you don't accept or align yourself with them. True or false,...?
False. God often leads me to places I disagree vehemently with in some doctrines but I have learned to speak lovingly to them and encourage them to the Gospel, then encourage them to abide in Christ, and only then encourage them to understand the practical to follow it.

Some would probably damn you to hell for not joining their particular "flavor" or denomination and suggest that you might as well sit down, shut up & swallow camels too.
Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?

And I'm also merely pointing out that you have yet to realize what living by faith and loving your neighbor as yourself actually means. This has nothing to do with anyone boosting themselves up as God---it's all about letting God--Jesus--call ALL the shots, even when it looks like complete madness from an economic standpoint!
You can look at my bankbook? You can read my mind? I very seriously doubt it.
 
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Gospelutionary

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I would say that picking up all the pieces of Jesus' practical teachings and placing them all together would only get you another Law to follow by works. It has already been shown that your picking prayer was actually cherry-picking verses and misunderstanding Christ's intent.

I would point out BTW, that you seemed to miss my point anyway, but I'll let that pass.


I'll skip the first passage, because you don't seem to understand it in context. As to the other two, go back to the Sermon on the Mount where He says to be perfect, even as the Father in heaven is perfect. What did Christ mean? Have you attained to that? Isn't it what will drive what those other two verses say?


Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?


Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?


Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart? And by the way, my name is Muddleglum. Is there any reason you cannot accept that as my name?


Peter didn't say that and quite rightfully too. You'll notice that in 4:34 the tenses of "sold" and "brought" are present active participle and imperfect active indicative respectively? That mean that AS there was need. If there was no need, then they didn't sell, but retained the land. I keep thinking you are saying to sell all right off, find the poor (and note that in this case it was only the poor of the Church, not all the poor) and give them all the money. You are saying giving to the apostles was the same thing as giving to the poor? That isn't literally what Jesus said, but that's fine. We should be careful to understand the logos of the passage, not just follow the words without understanding.


Why not answer the question? It might lead you to realize that we aren't that much different. Did you give all to the poor? All? Then how do you eat? Could you tell me how you, yourself, follow those verses? You might say exactly the same thing I do.

Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?

Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?


There are ways to bring things up and I don't complain nor switch people's names around to denigrate them. Speak the truth in love.


False. God often leads me to places I disagree vehemently with in some doctrines but I have learned to speak lovingly to them and encourage them to the Gospel, then encourage them to abide in Christ, and only then encourage them to understand the practical to follow it.


Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you look to your own heart?


You can look at my bankbook? You can read my mind? I very seriously doubt it.
 
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single eye

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Any reason you need to say it like that? Shouldn't you have looked to your own heart before replying, Muddle?
To receive "agape" we must cease trying to prove that we already have it. It is not possible to give what we have not yet received.
 
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....

Your turn!

Here is few more:

People seem to think that Jesus is as great as God, even though:

You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

People pray Jesus, even though he taught to pray God.

Pray like this: 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy…
Matt. 6:9

People think Jesus is God, yet they make pictures of him, which is against God’s commandments.

"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:4-6

People deny marrying, even though Bible says:

Now the Spirit says clearly that in the last times some people will abandon the faith by following deceitful spirits, the teachings of demons, and the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences have been burned by a hot iron. They will try to stop people from marrying…
1 Timothy 4:1-3

Priests are fathers even though Jesus denied it.

Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven.
Mat. 23:4-12

Jesus said also these “unorthodox” sayings according to the Bible

How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don't seek the glory that comes from the only God?
John 5:44

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

Sad thing, that people don’t be faithful to words of Jesus, because:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.”
John. 8:51
 
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