Does (Institutional) Christianity REALLY Hate Jesus (teachings)?

[Gospelutionary]

Seems like an unnecessarily antagonistic question to ask, but when you begin looking closely at Jesus' actual recorded words (teachings) in the 4 gospel accounts you'll begin to notice something strange happening all around you...

What you see being taught and practiced within the overall institutional Christian denominations is almost entirely opposed to or shockingly antithetical to very specific teachings/commands that Christ expected his followers to PRACTICE.

How about we each list a teaching/command of Christ's that we find in the gospels and see whether or not there is any truth to this bold claim.

I'll start with this one:

5“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the churches/synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. 6But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you." (Mt. 6:5-6)

Think about it...not much would even need to be said to point out how clearly opposed the churches are to this teaching/command as it's stated, and that's just ONE so far!

Here we have Jesus (whom most of us consider God in the flesh) telling us to NOT pray out loud/publicly/in church, saying that's how hypocrites pray, but instead, tells us/you to go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Notice how strongly he emphasizes (3 times!) the idea that this is a very private and personal experience---WHENEVER we pray--and there aren't ANY exceptions he's making for "corporate" prayer.

Also, watch how many people jump into this discussion to essentially rationalize why we must do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what our Lord teaches/commands.

Your turn!

Enjoy the show!!!

 

[thesunisout]

Seems like an unnecessarily antagonistic question to ask, but when you begin looking closely at Jesus' actual recorded words (teachings) in the 4 gospel accounts you'll begin to notice something strange happening all around you...

What you see being taught and practiced within the overall institutional Christian denominations is almost entirely opposed to or shockingly antithetical to very specific teachings/commands that Christ expected his followers to PRACTICE.

How about we each list a teaching/command of Christ's that we find in the gospels and see whether or not there is any truth to this bold claim.

I'll start with this one:

5“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the churches/synagogues where everyone can see them.

If Jesus meant that we're not supposed to ever pray in public then why did He violate His own commandment several times, especially in John 17? Also, why did the Apostles pray corporately in Acts 4:24?

 

[single eye]

If Jesus meant that we're not supposed to ever pray in public then why did He violate His own commandment several times, especially in John 17? Also, why did the Apostles pray corporately in Acts 4:24?

Do not forget the command " and as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of God is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses. nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

 

[Architeuthus]

Seems like an unnecessarily antagonistic question to ask

Yes.

What you see being taught and practiced within the overall institutional Christian denominations is almost entirely opposed to or shockingly antithetical to very specific teachings/commands that Christ expected his followers to PRACTICE.

Not so.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

I'll start with this one:

5“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the churches/synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. 6But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you." (Mt. 6:5-6)

Think about it...not much would even need to be said to point out how clearly opposed the churches are to this teaching/command as it's stated, and that's just ONE so far!

I think you have an interesting premise in the op and am in at least essential agreement with it. This is probably taking the idea a little too far, though. I have never understood Jesus to be saying that we're to only pray in private in the quoted passage...only that we should avoid making a public spectacle of praying, that if prayer is from the heart it will be done in private where it's one-on-one between believer and God. At the same time, there are certainly churches in which displays of praying are 'on parade' each Sunday and important for many to show the others sitting around him/her how devout they can be.

It should be interesting to see how you develop the idea in the op.

 

[muddleglum]

What you see being taught and practiced within the overall institutional Christian denominations is almost entirely opposed to or shockingly antithetical to very specific teachings/commands that Christ expected his followers to PRACTICE.

Read Romans 14 a lot.
Your first example shows that you might need to check the cultural background of the time to understand what Jesus was saying. Matthew's Gospel, remember, was pointed to the Jews. The Talmud will give you a different "feel" of the situation and a deeper understanding of the misuse that Jesus was referring to.

In general, though, I agree with you. Try starting a home church. Within a few months, you'll notice that the group has gravitated back to an institutional form. We have a fleshly religion stamped deeply within. Complaining won't help, nor does leaving. The only thing one can do is to bring the focus back to Jesus Christ by word and, especially, deed. As the group is encouraged to grow in Christ, you'll see some changes. Start a "church" within the institution and be a good testimony of what abiding in Christ means.

 

[RDKirk]

If Jesus meant that we're not supposed to ever pray in public then why did He violate His own commandment several times, especially in John 17? Also, why did the Apostles pray corporately in Acts 4:24?

What we see condemned in scripture are people making self-serving prayers about private matters in the public for the purpose of being seen and praised or for the purpose of influencing others.

There is a substantial difference between public prayers and corporate prayers. A public prayer is as I described above. A corporate prayer--notice that the word "corporate" means "body"--is a prayer said among believers of one accord, one purpose, a common mind, and the prayer is said by them together toward that one purpose.

After they [Peter and John} were released, they went to their own people and reported everything the chief priests and the elders had said to them.

When they heard this, they all raised their voices to God and said, “Master, You are the One who made the heaven, the earth, and the sea, and everything in them. You said through the Holy Spirit, by the mouth of our father David Your servant:

Why did the Gentiles rage
and the peoples plot futile things?
The kings of the earth took their stand
and the rulers assembled together
against the Lord and against His Messiah.

“For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

And now, Lord, consider their threats, and grant that Your slaves may speak Your message with complete boldness, while You stretch out Your hand for healing, signs, and wonders to be performed through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

When they had prayed, the place where they were assembled was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak God’s message with boldness. -- Acts 4.

But I don't disagree with your primary premise, and I would say that the specific reason it occurs is because we in the Body of Christ--especially those of us in the West--do not see ourselves as citizens of Heaven who are merely deployed as ambassadors to these various nations in the world, but see ourselves as natives of those nations.

From that error, most of these other problems a spawned.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Try starting a home church. Within a few months, you'll notice that the group has gravitated back to an institutional form. We have a fleshly religion stamped deeply within. Complaining won't help, nor does leaving.

True dat.

 

[RDKirk]

Read Romans 14 a lot.
Your first example shows that you might need to check the cultural background of the time to understand what Jesus was saying. Matthew's Gospel, remember, was pointed to the Jews. The Talmud will give you a different "feel" of the situation and a deeper understanding of the misuse that Jesus was referring to.

In general, though, I agree with you. Try starting a home church. Within a few months, you'll notice that the group has gravitated back to an institutional form. We have a fleshly religion stamped deeply within. Complaining won't help, nor does leaving. The only thing one can do is to bring the focus back to Jesus Christ by word and, especially, deed. As the group is encouraged to grow in Christ, you'll see some changes. Start a "church" within the institution and be a good testimony of what abiding in Christ means.

A home "church" isn't what the early Christians were doing. They met in homes, but they did not consider those congregations to be independent of the Body of Christ. See 2 Corinthians 8, around 12-16.

 

[muddleglum]

A home "church" isn't what the early Christians were doing. They met in homes, but they did not consider those congregations to be independent of the Body of Christ. See 2 Corinthians 8, around 12-16.

True... So... What is your point? I'm lost. Are you saying that all church groups in the world must have the same institutional polity? I kinda doubt that, but...
Perhaps you are assuming some situation that I haven't the foggiest notion of. Sounds like a good assumption on my part.

 

[timewerx]

Also, why did the Apostles pray corporately in Acts 4:24?

Because the apostles lost the way when Jesus left them. I don't regard most of non-Gospel books as inspired anymore.

Jesus faithfully practiced what he taught in Matthew 6 Read below v v

Mark 1:35
And rising very early in the morning, while it was still dark, he departed and went out to a desolate place, and there he prayed.

Luke 6:12
In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God.

Luke 5:16
But he would withdraw to desolate places and pray.

Matthew 14:23
And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray

Matthew 26:42
Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed,

Luke 22:41
And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,

Luke 11:1
Now Jesus was praying in a certain place....

Mark 14:35
And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed....


Many Non-Gospel teachings in fact, contradict or undermine the teachings of Jesus

In fact, Jesus Himself did not teach, nor practice corporate praying
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[muddleglum]

Because the apostles lost the way when Jesus left them. I don't regard most of non-Gospel books as inspired anymore.

You didn't read the post about Jesus praying in post two of Does (Institutional) Christianity REALLY Hate Jesus (teachings)? didn't you? That mentioned John 17. So you better not accept the Gospel of John, either.
Matthew 19:13: Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.(NASB)
Drop Matthew, too.
Mark 14:35: And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by.(NASB) (They heard Him! See the rest of the passage and compare with the parallel passages.)
Luke 9:18: And it happened that while He was praying alone, the disciples were with Him, and He questioned them, saying, "Who do the people say that I am?"(NASB)
That cleans out the Gospels completely.
What does that mean? Is there a contradiction? If it looks like a contradiction, assume that you don't understand something and patiently wait. Sooner or later you'll do a face-palm. I remember quite a lot of them.
Perhaps you need to recheck the other parts of the N.T. just in case. There just isn't a plain contradiction that I can find after looking at the entire context: historical, cultural, linguistical. You might find that what you consider as uninspired is actually very much inspired.

 

[Gospelutionary]

I think you have an interesting premise in the op and am in at least essential agreement with it. This is probably taking the idea a little too far, though. I have never understood Jesus to be saying that we're to only pray in private in the quoted passage...only that we should avoid making a public spectacle of praying, that if prayer is from the heart it will be done in private where it's one-on-one between believer and God. At the same time, there are certainly churches in which displays of praying are 'on parade' each Sunday and important for many to show the others sitting around him/her how devout they can be.

It should be interesting to see how you develop the idea in the op.

Appreciate all the input guys, thanks.

DD45, I think it's interesting to make note of the passages (below) timewerx shared with us that show Jesus practicing exactly what he taught/commanded us to do. As I said in the OP, many people will attempt to explain away very clear teachings like this in favor of the traditions of men that we sometimes equate to a level of Godliness..."And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others." (Mark 7:13) Here we have Jesus, "THE word of God, become flesh and dwelt among us" telling us very clearly that we usually prefer our traditions over his infinite wisdom.

BTW, I actually have no real beef with corporate prayer per se, I just wonder how uncomfortable folks might be gathered together to pray "to your father in secret and in silence". (Mt. 6:6)

If Jesus meant that we're not supposed to ever pray in public then why did He violate His own commandment several times, especially in John 17? Also, why did the Apostles pray corporately in Acts 4:24?

I don't know about you, but I'm gonna let Jesus do whatever he wants, even if that intially appears to us as if he's "breaking his own rules"! The better question is probably this: what did he tell YOU to do?

Mark 1:35
And rising very early in the morning, while it was still dark, he departed and went out to a desolate place, and there he prayed.

Luke 6:12
In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God.

Luke 5:16
But he would withdraw to desolate places and pray.

Matthew 14:23
And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray

Matthew 26:42
Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed,

Luke 22:41
And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,

Luke 11:1
Now Jesus was praying in a certain place....

Mark 14:35
And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed....

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/atheists-preaching-the-gospel-heads-up-atheists.7880399/

 

[Gospelutionary]

Read Romans 14 a lot.
Your first example shows that you might need to check the cultural background of the time to understand what Jesus was saying. Matthew's Gospel, remember, was pointed to the Jews. The Talmud will give you a different "feel" of the situation and a deeper understanding of the misuse that Jesus was referring to.

Muddle, it's interesting that while I'm trying to point back to Christ's actual teachings, you direct me to Romans 14 as if that would somehow supersede anything Christ taught. Even Paul says, "if I or an angel of heaven preach a gospel CONTRARY to Christ's let us be accursed/damned".

Are you saying, Muddle, that Jesus' teachings in the gospel of Matthew are NOT to be practiced/followed by Christians today?

In general, though, I agree with you. Try starting a home church. Within a few months, you'll notice that the group has gravitated back to an institutional form. We have a fleshly religion stamped deeply within. Complaining won't help, nor does leaving. The only thing one can do is to bring the focus back to Jesus Christ by word and, especially, deed. As the group is encouraged to grow in Christ, you'll see some changes. Start a "church" within the institution and be a good testimony of what abiding in Christ means.

Muddle, as this thread progresses you'll start to understand how unbelievably difficult it would be to start a home church, in this spiritually dead day and age, based exclusively on the teachings of Jesus. Try this crowd-pleaser next time you're invited to an institutionally derived home church and tell me how many people show up for the next meeting:

"…32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.34"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Luke 11, 12, 14; Acts 2 & 4).

But I suppose this is where many step in to enlighten me about how "Jesus didn't REALLY mean that"...

And thank God!! I mean---can you imagine how terrible this world would look if we ACTUALLY loved our neighbors as ourselves to the point where all our wealth and possessions were shared and distributed among anyone who had need?!? Isn't that just coded language for communism?!

You say that complaining and leaving doesn't help---have you ever heard of the lives and work of folks like Martin Luther, Soren Kierkegaard, Leo Tolstoy? Please don't assume or equate challenges to an anti-christ institution as mere "complaining", as if you knew where I've come from, what I have and have not been involved with over many years.

You said it yourself:

"The only thing one can do is to bring the focus back to Jesus Christ by word and, especially, deed."

And while you can't see any of my deeds via this medium of exchange, you do know that I am trying exactly as you say---to bring the focus back to Christ---but strangely enough you were the first to mention that what Jesus said in Matthews gospel doesn't apply to us as his followers in the 21st century. Strange indeed!

 

[muddleglum]

Muddle, it's interesting that while I'm trying to point back to Christ's actual teachings, you direct me to Romans 14 as if that would somehow supersede anything Christ taught. Even Paul says, "if I or an angel of heaven preach a gospel CONTRARY to Christ's let us be accursed/damned".

What you brought up wasn't the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are you saying, Muddle, that Jesus' teachings in the gospel of Matthew are NOT to be practiced/followed by Christians today?

I'm specifying exactly the same thing both Jesus and Paul specified. Love your neighbor. That proceeds only from the Gospel. Until Christ controls you, you will not be able to agape you neighbor.

Muddle, as this thread progresses you'll start to understand how unbelievably difficult it would be to start a home church, in this spiritually dead day and age,

If the age is spiritually dead, wasn't it the same in the apostle's day and age?

based exclusively on the teachings of Jesus. Try this crowd-pleaser next time you're invited to an institutionally derived home church and tell me how many people show up for the next meeting:

Dunno if you call an Amish or Beachy Amish church institutionally derived, but in the groups I know they generally wouldn't bat an eye.

"…32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.34"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Luke 11, 12, 14; Acts 2 & 4).

Luke 12:32 is in context of: Luke 12:21: "So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." 22: And He said to His disciples, "For this reason I say to you,...
This is also in the more general context of Jesus' contact with rich people like Lazarus.
Luke 11, 12, 14? what specifically?

The situation in Acts 2 and 4 is too complex to develop on this thread.

Also when you use Acts 4. Don't forget the context contains:
Acts 5:4: "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

But I suppose this is where many step in to enlighten me about how "Jesus didn't REALLY mean that"...

Oh, He meant it when He said, "So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
BTW, did you eat lunch? Who paid for it? How do you reconcile the verses?

And thank God!! I mean---can you imagine how terrible this world would look if we ACTUALLY loved our neighbors as ourselves to the point where all our wealth and possessions were shared and distributed among anyone who had need?!? Isn't that just coded language for communism?!

Nope. Marx, I believe, explained it as primitive Communism. There is a difference.

You say that complaining and leaving doesn't help---have you ever heard of the lives and work of folks like Martin Luther, Soren Kierkegaard, Leo Tolstoy? Please don't assume or equate challenges to an anti-christ institution as mere "complaining", as if you knew where I've come from, what I have and have not been involved with over many years.

I was out pointing from the Christian perspective that complaining won't help. I was pointing out from my own experience that leaving won't help either. That goes more broadly than what I wrote in my post. Often the Hutterites, for instance, are wary about people coming in. Those usually exit fairly quickly.

You said it yourself:

"The only thing one can do is to bring the focus back to Jesus Christ by word and, especially, deed."

And while you can't see any of my deeds via this medium of exchange, you do know that I am trying exactly as you say---to bring the focus back to Christ---but strangely enough you were the first to mention that what Jesus said in Matthews gospel doesn't apply to us as his followers in the 21st century. Strange indeed!

I merely pointed out that you didn't understand where Jesus came from: Love God and your neighbor as yourself. If you are focusing to love God then you will not be focusing to boost yourself as a God, which is the heart of what praying like that verse means. You can go to your closet and pray about how good you are, too. That type of self-worship came up in another place.

'Sides, check post #2. Thesunisout got here long before me.

 

[shadowhunter]

I'd like to point out a common method of argumentation, of which the OP is an example.

First you state the spiritual nature of a teaching, then criticize it based on a judgement of its outward manifestation.
If one agrees with the spiritual teaching, they are battered with the outward manifestations. Who knows the heart behind the prayers offered, public or private? So why do we contrast the spiritual with the outward manifestation? Why make literalist arguments concerning a spiritual matter?

If we have become a group of Pharisees, we can discuss the legal nitty gritty of the literal word. But it is just a distraction from the spiritual reality of loving God and loving your neighbor. Can I love God while I pray, whether in private or public? Isn't that the heart of the issue? Shouldn't all questions concerning the practice of the church revolve around the first and second laws of Christ?

 

[RDKirk]

True... So... What is your point? I'm lost. Are you saying that all church groups in the world must have the same institutional polity? I kinda doubt that, but...
Perhaps you are assuming some situation that I haven't the foggiest notion of. Sounds like a good assumption on my part.

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.

What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? 1 Corinthians 1

 

[muddleglum]

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.

What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? 1 Corinthians 1

True, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8-10 (the eating meat sacrificed to idols section). There can be differences without the division and quarrels like you bring up. Read the Greek there in 1 Cor 1 and you'll see ego, ego, ego, ego. That is a lot of ego. Study how Paul usually uses the word ego. "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer ego who lives." He tends to use it for the sin or flesh nature.

The two passages that I brought up didn't deplore the differences in thinking of nonessential doctrine, but the unloving nature of some.

I'll agree that as we grow in Christ we will become closer in doctrine, but are you asking every member of the body to be mature immediately?

One last point. If we agree perfectly on all things, then which non-essential wins? How do we determine that?

In Christ,

 

[timewerx]

You didn't read the post about Jesus praying in post two of Does (Institutional) Christianity REALLY Hate Jesus (teachings)? didn't you? That mentioned John 17. So you better not accept the Gospel of John, either.
Matthew 19:13: Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.(NASB)
Drop Matthew, too.
Mark 14:35: And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by.(NASB) (They heard Him! See the rest of the passage and compare with the parallel passages.)
Luke 9:18: And it happened that while He was praying alone, the disciples were with Him, and He questioned them, saying, "Who do the people say that I am?"(NASB)
That cleans out the Gospels completely.
What does that mean? Is there a contradiction? If it looks like a contradiction, assume that you don't understand something and patiently wait. Sooner or later you'll do a face-palm. I remember quite a lot of them.
Perhaps you need to recheck the other parts of the N.T. just in case. There just isn't a plain contradiction that I can find after looking at the entire context: historical, cultural, linguistical. You might find that what you consider as uninspired is actually very much inspired.

Jesus only did it once and at a time when his departure is nearing. Coincidence?

he did not asked them to practice such thing either.

none of the verses you quoted encourages corporate praying

 

[muddleglum]

none of the verses you quoted encourages corporate praying

But, I would have assumed, they would discourage cherry picking passages to say that Jesus never prayed except in privacy. That was the point that you and this thread brought up.
And "encourages corporate praying" is certainly not the same as "prohibits corporate praying," which is also the point of this thread, so at least you aren't that far from me.

As I said before, the type of prayer that Jesus was denouncing was the type of "look at me" prayers certain of the Rabbis were doing. The "Fall down and worship my ego because I can really pray" type that turns people to love human idols instead of loving the Lord our God.

Edit: typo