Navigating the Road to Bible Prophecy... Modern Futurism and Preterism:

BABerean2 · May 24, 2015

Navigating the Road to Bible Prophecy:

We have some here who have driven off the road and gone into the ditch on one side of the road by only seeing the second question in Matthew 24:3.

We also have others who have gotten out of the ditch on one side and then overcorrected and have gone into the ditch on the other side of the road. They only see the first question in Matthew 24:3.

The disciples asked two questions and Jesus answered both questions in Matthew chapter 24.

At the risk of having almost everyone here upset with me, the link below contains the origin of both viewpoints.

Both modern Futurism and modern Preterism came out of the Papal Counterreformation.

See the link below.

Origin of Modern Versions of Futurism and Preterism
http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/antichrist.html

tranquil · May 24, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Navigating the Road to Bible Prophecy:

We have some here who have driven off the road and gone into the ditch on one side of the road by only seeing the second question in Matthew 24:3.

We also have others who have gotten out of the ditch on one side and then overcorrected and have gone into the ditch on the other side of the road. They only see the first question in Matthew 24:3.

The disciples asked two questions and Jesus answered both questions in Matthew chapter 24.

At the risk of having almost everyone here upset with me, the link below contains the origin of both viewpoints.

Both modern Futurism and modern Preterism came out of the Papal Counterreformation.

See the link below.

Origin of Modern Versions of Futurism and Preterism
http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/antichrist.html

Very good article.

But the problem is somewhat the same: by saying that the Catholic church is/ was the antichrist from 538 AD to 1798, it is merely reinforcing the preterist position that all prophecy is done, put a bow on it.

Clearly, political things are progressing quickly to some sort of culmination point.

Also, there has to be a reason for end-times propaganda (of which includes: "time-travel" (antichrist thinks to "change times"), "wormholes", "aliens", "aliens are demons", "whisked away rapture" (performed by aliens ostensibly) etc, etc.

So, really, the only upshot to the article would be to say that the end times are faked - which in turn would fulfill the futurist position, but leaving the Catholic church in charge until God really decided to intervene, yes?

BABerean2 · May 24, 2015

tranquil said:
Very good article.

But the problem is somewhat the same: by saying that the Catholic church is/ was the antichrist from 538 AD to 1798, it is merely reinforcing the preterist position that all prophecy is done, put a bow on it.

Clearly, political things are progressing quickly to some sort of culmination point.

Also, there has to be a reason for end-times propaganda (of which includes: "time-travel" (antichrist thinks to "change times"), "wormholes", "aliens", "aliens are demons", "whisked away rapture" (performed by aliens ostensibly) etc, etc.

So, really, the only upshot to the article would be to say that the end times are faked - which in turn would fulfill the futurist position, but leaving the Catholic church in charge until God really decided to intervene, yes?

You are correct about the current "end-time-deceptions".
Most people have been brainwashed to the degree that they will believe almost anything they see on their Television, or computer screen.

I do not believe all prophecy is done. In this respect I am a Futurist, although I have rejected much of what is taught today in the American evangelical Church. It is not what was taught by the Apostles of Christ.

We are headed toward a Globalist system.
Some of the wealthiest, most powerful people in the world are promoting the agenda.
Our nation is being set up for a fall to facilitate this agenda.
Order of out Chaos is their methodology.

The pretribbers are telling us not to worry, because we will be out of here before it happens.

The other side is telling us it has already happened.

I still believe it comes down to the two questions asked by the disciples in Matthew 24:3.
The first half of Matthew chapter 24 answers the first question and the end of the chapter answers the second question.

Christ is coming back for us, at some point in the future.
He will destroy this rotten, sin-cursed world and bring in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
He has bought us with His Blood.
We will live with Him for an eternity.

.

gospelfer · May 24, 2015

Berean, the questions of origins is moot -- except as an antiquarian interest.

All movements (and the ideas that animate them) can be cast as reactions against other existing movements, institutions or ideas. Hence, we can argue that all ideas art indelibly tainted by their hostility to some movement, institution, or idea.

Poisoning the well is a sophmoric game. We either engage other's ideas on their merits, or concede that are own ideas have little merit. The only people on this forum who regularly engage in poisoning the well are the preterists, and this is because preterism is weak. If you don't believe me, see this thread where all the typical preterist weaknesses are on parade.

BABerean2 · May 24, 2015

gospelfer said:
Berean, the questions of origins is moot -- except as an antiquarian interest.

All movements (and the ideas that animate them) can be cast as reactions against other existing movements, institutions or ideas. Hence, we can argue that all ideas art indelibly tainted by their hostility to some movement, institution, or idea.

Poisoning the well is a sophmoric game. We either engage other's ideas on their merits, or concede that are own ideas have little merit. The only people on this forum who regularly engage in poisoning the well are the preterists, and this is because preterism is weak. If you don't believe me, see this thread where all the typical preterist weaknesses are on parade.

Poisoning of the well mainly comes from those who use personal attacks to defend their doctrine.
It also comes from those who intentionally ignore the scripture that disproves their doctrine.
The third point is a denial of the historical record, whether it be the desolation of the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 167 BC, the early Christians leaving Jerusalem just before 70 AD, the fulfillment of Luke 21:24, or the origin of the modern Dispensational viewpoint.

When combined these things show which doctrines are false, very quickly.

Comments like... "... working for the enemy." have become very common on this forum.

I hoped what we were all looking for is the doctrine taught be the Apostles of Christ.

Sadly, this is not the case.

Most only want to hold onto their legalist doctrine and are willing to use personal attacks to achieve their goal.
Some even justify the attacks by proclaiming they are the ones proclaiming Biblical truth.

.

gospelfer · May 25, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Poisoning of the well mainly comes from those who use personal attacks to defend their doctrine.
It also comes from those who intentionally ignore the scripture that disproves their doctrine.
The third point is a denial of the historical record, whether it be the desolation of the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 167 BC, the early Christians leaving Jerusalem just before 70 AD, the fulfillment of Luke 21:24, or the origin of the modern Dispensational viewpoint.

When combined these things show which doctrines are false, very quickly.

Comments like... "... working for the enemy." have become very common on this forum.

I hoped what we were all looking for is the doctrine taught be the Apostles of Christ.

Most only want to hold onto their legalist doctrine and are willing to use personal attacks to achieve their goal.
Some even justify the attacks by proclaiming they are the ones proclaiming Biblical truth.
.

Well, sometimes debate becomes heated, but I have not seen too many actual personal attacks here.

As far as I know nobody has denied any historical record -- though there is disagreement of how it prophecy matches history.

Also, as far as I can tell, there is nobody here who does not hold to the teachings of Christ. Everybody here believes Christ's gospel.

Presumably we all hold our beliefs sincerely, and as long as we argue honestly and attempt to account for the whole truth, we shall be blameless for the vigor of our debate.

Obviously, I am a futurist. I also believe that the futurist position can take on the preterist one on every matter, and in the minutest detail. I don't think the same can be said for the futurist position. But of course, that is just to say I am a futurist.

In any case, poisoning the well is a logical fallacy. When we say an idea came from Catholics (or Protestants) with the expectation that this will influence the argument, we are deploying this fallacy. It is an attempt to frighten the weak-minded or gullible with being attached to some hated, feared, or despised group of people. In this case it is the Catholic church. I myself don't have much use for the RC church, but I recognize that shouting "Catholic!" at ideas of which I disapprove is not valid argument.

BABerean2 · May 25, 2015

gospelfer said:
Well, sometimes debate becomes heated, but I have not seen too many actual personal attacks here.

As far as I know nobody has denied any historical record -- though there is disagreement of how it prophecy matches history.

Also, as far as I can tell, there is nobody here who does not hold to the teachings of Christ. Everybody here believes Christ's gospel.

Presumably we all hold our beliefs sincerely, and as long as we argue honestly and attempt to account for the whole truth, we shall be blameless for the vigor of our debate.

Obviously, I am a futurist. I also believe that the futurist position can take on the preterist one on every matter, and in the minutest detail. I don't think the same can be said for the futurist position. But of course, that is just to say I am a futurist.

In any case, poisoning the well is a logical fallacy. When we say an idea came from Catholics (or Protestants) with the expectation that this will influence the argument, we are deploying this fallacy. It is an attempt to frighten the weak-minded or gullible with being attached to some hated, feared, or despised group of people. In this case it is the Catholic church. I myself don't have much use for the RC church, but I recognize that shouting "Catholic!" at ideas of which I disapprove is not valid argument.

Have you ever studied the Reformer's view of the antichrist?

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
What religious system completely perverted the New Testament and has killed more Christians than anyone else? It's leader allows others to bow down to him and kiss his ring. His title means "substitute" for Christ.

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
This system has completely imbedded itself within almost every nation.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
It's priests are arrayed in robes of purple and scarlet.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
During the Reformation, millions of those who tried to leave the system were martyred.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
What city is known as the city of seven hills?

After the invention of the printing press, those who led the Reformation identified only one institution as the antichrist system found in scripture.

Many today are clueless to this truth.

Even to this day, this system holds tremendous wealth and influence over the nations of the world.

Most Protestants today have no idea what the word means.

Pro testant

What were the Reformers protesting?

When you get some time do a little research on the "Counterreformation".

The question is not, who is poisoning the well.

The question is... Why did Ribera promote Futurism and why did Alcazar promote Preterism?

City of Seven Hills
pinterest.com/pin/67342956901832129/

Straightshot · May 25, 2015

"Poisoning of the well mainly comes from those who use personal attacks to defend their doctrine"

When you do this BaB, and you do .... your going to get the same back on you from some

So you should stop it if you don't like it

And the reformers did not understand Bible prophecy .... and their approach was a proprietary thing specifically against the RCC .... a total misfire .... and they were antisemitic to the core

So the reformers rant, still held by some today, is not a good source for truth

BABerean2 · May 25, 2015

Straightshot said:
"Poisoning of the well mainly comes from those who use personal attacks to defend their doctrine"

When you do this BaB, and you do .... your going to get the same back on you from some

So you should stop it if you don't like it

And the reformers did not understand Bible prophecy .... and their approach was a proprietary thing specifically against the RCC .... a total misfire .... and they were antisemitic to the core

So the reformers rant, still held by some today, is not a good source for truth

The biggest mistake the Reformers made was to retain some of the RCC doctrine, especially infant baptism.

Neither circumcision on the 8th day, nor the sprinkling water on infants imparts any type of salvation.

Salvation only comes from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, as one's Savior.

The RCC system completely corrupted the teachings of the New Testament.

Many of the arguments we are seeing here are part of the CounterReformation, still at work hundreds of years after it started.

.

gospelfer · May 25, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
What religious system completely perverted the New Testament and has killed more Christians than anyone else? It's leader allows others to bow down to him and kiss his ring. His title means "substitute" for Christ.

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
This system has completely imbedded itself within almost every nation.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
It's priests are arrayed in robes of purple and scarlet.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
During the Reformation, millions of those who tried to leave the system were martyred.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
What city is known as the city of seven hills?

Even to this day, this system holds tremendous wealth and influence over the nations of the world.

What were the Reformers protesting?

The question is not, who is poisoning the well
The question is... Why did Ribera promote Futurism and why did Alcazar promote Preterism?

Revelation repeatedly paints the harlot as an enormously wealthy entity to whom the rest of the world sells its goods in order to make a living. This simply rules out the Catholic church. Yes, in personal terms, the Church is wealthy; you and I will never have as much money as the Church. But in national terms, the Church is almost unnoticeable. At the end of the latter days, when the harlot is destroyed, John paints the shipping of the world standing off, in anguish over their loss in trade. Right now, if the RC church disappeared, the world economy wouldn't even notice it.

John also makes clear that the seven heads/mountains are a sequence. Rome's hills are simultaneous.

There are other reasons why the RC church cannot be the harlot; but these two are the most brutally obvious.

Like anything that's been around for 2000 years, the RC church has some ugly history attached to it. Also, some of its doctrine is uncommonly silly. But, as I'm sure you are aware, the Protestant church did some killing of its own, too. I have doubts as to your history: the RC church has martyred millions of Protestants? I don't see how this could be true unless your definition of "martyr" is a lot looser than most people would grant. I suppose if all the protestants killed in the Thirty Years War were counted as martyrs you could get to "millions". But many Catholics were killed in that war too.

If you really want to find a slaughterer of Christians, I suggest looking no further than Islam. If you want, you can find current pictures of Christian girls, still in their dresses, but missing their heads. This is going on right now. The Armenian genocide was not a war, and it was not ethnic; it was the slaughter of 1.5 million Christian men women and children by the Turks -- less than 100 years ago. Right now in large parts of the formerly Christian west, you cannot public criticize Islam's prophet without putting yourself in mortal danger.

Even as Islam steamrolls the world, there will be little redoubts of Christianity, but instead of being united against the true danger of the age, they will be squabbling with each other over ancient disagreements -- exactly like the Jewish Zealots fighting the Romans in 70 AD.

Wake up folks.

BABerean2 · May 25, 2015

gospelfer said:
Revelation repeatedly paints the harlot as an enormously wealthy entity to whom the rest of the world sells its goods in order to make a living. This simply rules out the Catholic church. Yes, in personal terms, the Church is wealthy; you and I will never have as much money as the Church. But in national terms, the Church is almost unnoticeable. At the end of the latter days, when the harlot is destroyed, John paints the shipping of the world standing off, in anguish over their loss in trade. Right now, if the RC church disappeared, the world economy wouldn't even notice it.

John also makes clear that the seven heads/mountains are a sequence. Rome's hills are simultaneous.

There are other reasons why the RC church cannot be the harlot; but these two are the most brutally obvious.

Like anything that's been around for 2000 years, the RC church has some ugly history attached to it. Also, some of its doctrine is uncommonly silly. But, as I'm sure you are aware, the Protestant church did some killing of its own, too. I have doubts as to your history: the RC church has martyred millions of Protestants? I don't see how this could be true unless your definition of "martyr" is a lot looser than most people would grant. I suppose if all the protestants killed in the Thirty Years War were counted as martyrs you could get to "millions". But many Catholics were killed in that war too.

If you really want to find a slaughterer of Christians, I suggest looking no further than Islam. If you want, you can find current pictures of Christian girls, still in their dresses, but missing their heads. This is going on right now. The Armenian genocide was not a war, and it was not ethnic; it was the slaughter of 1.5 million Christian men women and children by the Turks -- less than 100 years ago. Right now in large parts of the formerly Christian west, you cannot public criticize Islam's prophet without putting yourself in mortal danger.

Even as Islam steamrolls the world, there will be little redoubts of Christianity, but instead of being united against the true danger of the age, they will be squabbling with each other over ancient disagreements -- exactly like the Jewish Zealots fighting the Romans in 70 AD.

Wake up folks.

It is not about wealth. It is about control.

Murder by any group is wrong, whether is be the RCC, the Protestants who killed witches, or the Moslems of today.

In recent years, the Pope was photographed kissing a copy of the Koran.

Look at the number of priests who have molested boys.

Have you ever read Foxe's Book of the Martyrs?

Are you denying the purpose of the Counterreformation?

Do you know anything about the Council of Trent?
.

Straightshot · May 25, 2015

The Pope and his church is a joke Bab .... and the Muslims are after his head

Rome and the Pope are not in the prophetic scriptures at all .... all of this just a part of apostate "Christianity"

....

BABerean2 · May 25, 2015

Straightshot said:
The Pope and his church is a joke Bab .... and the Muslims are after his head

Rome and the Pope are not in the prophetic scriptures at all .... all of this just a part of apostate "Christianity"

....

It looks like the Counterreformation is alive and well here.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

Straightshot · May 25, 2015

"It is not about wealth. It is about control."

The RCC has become relic of the past today ... just look at what happened in
Ireland

The RCC churches are empty in Europe .... and being replaced with mosques

The church has no control over any issues in the political world .... all the little man in the white dress can do is to exclaim his condemnations

The Muslims have all but wiped out the Coptic Christians in the Middle East

You would do better to pick the Muslims as your whipping post today .... but this one is lethal so be careful ..... they want your head

gospelfer · May 25, 2015

BABerean2 said:
It is not about wealth. It is about control.

Murder by any group is wrong, whether is be the RCC, the Protestants who killed witches, or the Moslems of today.
In recent years, the Pope was photographed kissing a copy of the Koran.
Look at the number of priests who have molested boys.
Have you ever read Foxe's Book of the Martyrs?
Are you denying the purpose of the Counterreformation?
Do you know anything about the Council of Trent?
.

The RC church now has less control and less power over its adherent than at any time in history. Whatever sillyness has crept into the RC church over the millennia, I still regard them as Christians espousing the basic tenets of Christianity. Yes, I know there are a bunch of stupid un-scriptural things super-added into their faith, but the basic Christian tenets are still there.

Yes, the current pope seems wobbly (prone to liberation theology and multiculturism).

I'm simply not interested in the Protestant/Catholic conflict; we have bigger fish (existential fish!) to fry. Islam is knocking at the door, and I would choose Catholicism and its small stupidities over the never-ending spiritual darkness of Islam every time. It is a question of priorities, and recognizing the danger of the age.

BABerean2 · May 26, 2015

gospelfer said:
The RC church now has less control and less power over its adherent than at any time in history. Whatever sillyness has crept into the RC church over the millennia, I still regard them as Christians espousing the basic tenets of Christianity. Yes, I know there are a bunch of stupid un-scriptural things super-added into their faith, but the basic Christian tenets are still there.

Yes, the current pope seems wobbly (prone to liberation theology and multiculturism).

I'm simply not interested in the Protestant/Catholic conflict; we have bigger fish (existential fish!) to fry. Islam is knocking at the door, and I would choose Catholicism and its small stupidities over the never-ending spiritual darkness of Islam every time. It is a question of priorities, and recognizing the danger of the age.

He who is against Christ is antichrist. How many people of the world are now in the RCC system and how many people in the world are in the Islamic system? Should the two groups be compared or added together.
We should know what the Reformers would say? They were willing to give their lives in order to leave the system that had completely corrupted the New Testament.

There are only two sides in the spiritual battle in which we are now engaged? This is the big picture.

The size of the fish is not important. The question is... "Whose side is the fish on?"

1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I do not hate any person in either system.
However, both systems are corrupt.
Therefore, both groups need to hear the truth.

My wife and I are now supporting a missionary couple who are part of a radio ministry reaching out to the Muslims in the Middle East.

Straightshot · May 26, 2015

The Muslim is the most overt

The RCC is the more subtle

Both work toward the same ending, but just in a different way

.... and the devil is in the details

The Muslim transgressors are the most dangerous and I believe that these will get closest to the goal .... and in the process will even cut the RCC to a lessor rival

Watch what is going on in the Middle East and Europe as we speak

The Lord will settle the controversy between Israel and the Muslims

gospelfer · May 26, 2015

BABerean2 said:
He who is against Christ is antichrist. How many people of the world are now in the RCC system and how many people in the world are in the Islamic system? Should the two groups be compared or added together.
We should know what the Reformers would say? They were willing to give their lives in order to leave the system that had completely corrupted the New Testament.

There are only two sides in the spiritual battle in which we are now engaged? This is the big picture.

The size of the fish is not important. The question is... "Whose side is the fish on?"

I do not hate any person in either system.
However, both systems are corrupt.
Therefore, both groups need to hear the truth.

Catholics are Christians. The assert all the basic tenets of Christianity. On top of this they add a bunch of unnecessary, confusing, and even dangerous stuff.

However, Catholics are not to be confused with Muslims. Nobody should be confused with Muslims.

Islam lays upon its devotee the responsibility to subjugate the world by force. In order to achieve this end, Muslims are allowed to lie, cheat, murder, and rape. Islam appeals to all that is worst in men, and it is on the march.

BABerean2 · May 26, 2015

gospelfer said:
Catholics are Christians. The assert all the basic tenets of Christianity. On top of this they add a bunch of unnecessary, confusing, and even dangerous stuff.

However, Catholics are not to be confused with Muslims. Nobody should be confused with Muslims.

Islam lays upon its devotee the responsibility to subjugate the world by force. In order to achieve this end, Muslims are allowed to lie, cheat, murder, and rape. Islam appeals to all that is worst in men, and it is on the march.

There are probably millions of Catholics who have accepted Christ as their savior and are most certainly Christians.

My parents were Lutherans and had me sprinkled as a baby. I went to church with my parents.
For most of my life, I was no more a Christian than my wife's cat.

Unless one is born-again, they are not a Christian.

It took me a while to finally find the truth or it could be said, He found me.

I came to understand that I was made of rotten flesh, who could not save myself.

He bought me with His Blood.

Sadly, there are millions of people sitting in churches of all denominations who think they are Christians, because someone sprinkled them with water when they were a baby or for some other reason that has nothing to do with salvation.

They need to be born-again as it was explained to Nicodemus.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Born of water here refers to the water in the womb of the mother. Nobody has ever gained salvation, only through water baptism. I was sprinkled as a child, but have no memory of it, and was then immersed after I became a believer, many years later.)

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is not about being baptized.
It is not about being good.
It is not about your parents.
It is not about going to Church.
It is not about praying the prayer.
It is not about walking the aisle.

It is about the gift of Grace purchased on a blood stained Cross, by the God-man who came down and became a sacrifice for rotten sinners like me.

It is not about what I did. It is about what He did.
.

Interplanner · May 26, 2015

To add a bit more clarity, Bab, it is not something that takes place within you (although things do). It is the dismissal of debt (or, realization that it is dismissed in Christ). The debt of sin. That is what it means to be justified from our sins, which Paul explained is what the whole history of Israel was moving toward, ie, toward a day when that astounding message would be told around the world, Acts 13's sermon (it is neglect of this sermon which creates so many misconstrued eschatologies). It is also why Paul used the term 'imputed' or 'credited' so many times. Our sin problem is first a problem of accounts/debts/bankruptcy. We are either too arrogant or too futile to realize this is the first problem. Then the 2nd problem is inner change. But when we keep the first thing first, the 2nd will start changing.

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