Why are there religious people?

TheBarrd said:

Sir, am I to understand that you are calling me a liar and a hypocrite?

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I was speaking in general terms. Although I do believe that your position in regards to the treatment of murderers quite neatly fits the definition of hypocrisy.

Treat these murderers with sympathy and kindness... shun these other ones over there. Your perception of why girls get abortions has been shown false...so, yea, it fits the term hypocrisy. Would you like me to share the definition with you?

Davian said:

Good gravy. I didn't see that until now.

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Lol seriously?

Ana the Ist said:

I think it speaks to the nature of morality itself. Quite remarkable what people will accept as normal if it's all they've ever known.

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An interesting point. Even many people who think abortion is murder view it differently than infanticide.

Ana the Ist said:

Lol seriously?

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Seriously. I take things very literally, and if I am not paying attention subtleties like that go right on by me...

I like it, though. For me, I went for a regular-name-type username, so it doesn't read so awkward when that condescending religionist starts in on me with his "Ya know, Davian, if you would assume that I am right about everything..."

Cearbhall said:

I've noticed this about some people who are pro-life. I've had this conversation. I asked how they could treat me like a normal person when they quite literally feel that I'm in favor of keeping infanticide legal. They really couldn't manage to conjure up the same feelings towards me that they feel towards the rare psychopath who thinks actual infanticide is moral. I'm not sure this means that their feelings about the matter aren't genuine, however. I suppose even pro-life people have been desensitized.

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I don't hate you for being pro choice, if that's what you are.
It has been well said that a woman doesn't want an abortion in the way that she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche.
She wants an abortion in the way that an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw it's leg off...

I think of people...especially women!...who want to keep abortion legal as caught up in politically correct foolishness. I strongly suspect that a great many of them haven't really given the issue a lot of thought.

Cearbhall said:

An interesting point. Even many people who think abortion is murder view it differently than infanticide.

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I'd say the vast majority.

You know who really sees it as murder? Those abortion clinic bombers in the 80s and such.

TheBarrd said:

I don't hate you for being pro choice, if that's what you are.

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Oh, hatred isn't what I expect from pro-life people, unless they say that they hate people who approve of infanticide. I'm just looking for consistency. Avoidance, disgust, etc.

Davian said:

Seriously. I take things very literally, and if I am not paying attention subtleties like that go right on by me...

I like it, though. For me, I went for a regular-name-type username, so it doesn't read so awkward when that condescending religionist starts in on me with his "Ya know, Davian, if you would assume that I am right about everything..."

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I can't remember my first choices... but I remember at least a few names being rejected before this one was approved.

Lots of folk never catch it. I do remember one guy who replied to me once while quoting me as "an atheist" in all caps, bolded, and italicized like he had figured out my big secret and outed me.

It was hilarious.

TheBarrd said:

I think of people...especially women!...who want to keep abortion legal as caught up in politically correct foolishness. I strongly suspect that a great many of them haven't really given the issue a lot of thought.

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No, I just don't believe in objective morality. Or souls, or Hell, or anything that would make abortion obviously problematic. Nothing to do with being PC. My moral system tends to reflect social contract theory, and under this theory I see zero reason to protect a fetus against a pregnant woman's will. Some people who subscribe to this theory disagree, but I have given it a lot of thought.

Cearbhall said:

An interesting point. Even many people who think abortion is murder view it differently than infanticide.

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There would also be the hypocrisy of those that consider abortion to be murder, but having to contribute to accessible, affordable health care for those same children once they are born to be crossing some sort of line. Puzzling.

Cearbhall said:

Oh, hatred isn't what I expect from pro-life people, unless they say that they hate people who approve of infanticide. I'm just looking for consistency. Avoidance, disgust, etc.

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I'm really not into all that.
I'm more of a peace loving gal, actually...I will try to find a reason to get along, no matter how we may disagree...

However, even I have limits to my patience. I wish sometimes that I didn't...

TheBarrd said:

I'm really not into all that.
I'm more of a peace loving gal, actually...I will try to find a reason to get along, no matter how we may disagree...

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That's impressive. I can't say I would be very loving if someone told me that infanticide should be legal, but good job.

Cearbhall said:

No, I just don't believe in objective morality. Or souls, or Hell, or anything that would make abortion obviously problematic. Nothing to do with being PC. My moral system tends to reflect social contract theory, and under this theory I see zero reason to protect a fetus against a pregnant woman's will. Some people who subscribe to this theory disagree, but I have given it a lot of thought.

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That's right...you are also an atheist.
I wonder...if you knew that the pregnant woman really wanted to keep her baby, but felt pressured to abort...would you offer her the kind of help she would need to give her child life?
What if it meant some sacrifice on your part?

Cearbhall said:

That's impressive. I can't say I would be very loving if someone told me that infanticide should be legal, but good job.

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I don't think most pro choice people actually think of abortion as "infanticide". I've heard far too many tell me that "it isn't really a baby"...

TheBarrd said:

I wonder...if you knew that the pregnant woman really wanted to keep her baby, but felt pressured to abort...would you offer her the kind of help she would need to give her child life?

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Of course I would! I only want the option of a safe abortion to be available to her. I'm not "pro-abortion." I'm pro-choice, meaning that I want each woman to be free to make her own decision. Even if I would do something different in her situation, that doesn't matter to me. Pressuring someone to have an abortion is just as bad as keeping them from having an abortion, in my opinion.

TheBarrd said:

What if it meant some sacrifice on your part?

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What relation do I have to this hypothetical woman that I would have to make sacrifices?

Cearbhall said:

Of course I would! I only want the option of a safe abortion to be available to her. I'm not "pro-abortion." I'm pro-choice, meaning that I want each woman to be free to make her own decision. Even if I would do something different in her decision, that doesn't matter to me.

What relation do I have to this hypothetical woman that I would have to make sacrifices?

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Didn't you say something earlier about a "social contract"? Aren't we all members of the same society?
Suppose this girl needs, I dunno...shelter, financial help, or even just someone who will drive her to her doctor and to the hospital when the time comes?
I'm not asking you to do anything I have not done myself, by the way...I have taken several of these young girls into my own home, I have bought baby equipment and maternity clothes with my own money, and I have made sure that they have had transportation when they needed it.
Let me tell you, there is nothing at all like the experience of being able to place a beautiful, living infant in the arms of the new mother, where there would have been nothing but a one more little corpse, rotting somewhere in a dumpster behind some abortion clinic. At least, not in my experience.
Yes, I have stayed with enough new moms that the hospital knows me, and even lets me carry the new baby from the delivery room to the nursery...what a joy it is to me to cuddle these little ones in my arms, knowing that, without volunteers like me, they would have been nothing but abortion statistics.

I'm sure that all but the very most cold hearted of atheists can understand what I am saying here...

TheBarrd said:

Didn't you say something earlier about a "social contract"? Aren't we all members of the same society?

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Social contract theory refers to the way that humans develop morals in order to allow for the existence of mutually beneficial relationships, and ultimately, a society. A simple example is that murder is socially unacceptable because otherwise we would have to live like the people in The Purge year-round and nothing would ever get done. Most of us gladly give up the opportunity to kill people so that we can live in a productive society. In the case of abortion, eliminating a fetus that the pregnant woman doesn't want to carry to term does not harm the society. The fetus has not yet entered society, and no one who functions as a part of society is under threat of being aborted.

TheBarrd said:

Suppose this girl needs, I dunno...shelter, financial help, or even just someone who will drive her to her doctor and to the hospital when the time comes?

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I would answer that my personal responsibility for providing each option isn't very high, since I don't care what decision she makes. If I were someone who would condemn her for making a certain choice, as a pro-life person might, then I would have a greater amount of responsibility for making the other options accessible to her.

And yes...several of these girls stay in touch with me. One of my "grandkids" is about to turn eighteen. Hard to imagine...seems like only yesterday his Momma was crying on my shoulder, scared to her toenails...she kept her little boy, and found her a nice young man to marry...together, they have three more kids. He works in the logging woods, and makes pretty good money, so I'm happy to say that her story has a happy ending...

Cearbhall said:

Social contract theory refers to the way that humans develop morals in order to allow for the existence of mutually beneficial relationships, and ultimately, a society. A simple example is that murder is socially unacceptable because otherwise we would have to live like the people in The Purge year-round and nothing would never get done. In the case of abortion, eliminating a fetus that the pregnant woman doesn't want to carry to term does not harm the society. The fetus has not yet entered society, and no one who functions as a part of society is under threat of being aborted.

I would answer that my personal responsibility for providing each option isn't very high, since I don't care what decision she makes. If I were someone who would condemn her for making a certain choice, as a pro-life person might, then I would have a greater amount of responsibility for making the other options accessible to her.

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So, in other words, caring for her would fall to someone like me, right?

TheBarrd said:

I'm not asking you to do anything I have not done myself, by the way...I have taken several of these young girls into my own home, I have bought baby equipment and maternity clothes with my own money, and I have made sure that they have had transportation when they needed it.

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That's wonderful.

TheBarrd said:

Let me tell you, there is nothing at all like the experience of being able to place a beautiful, living infant in the arms of the new mother, where there would have been nothing but a one more little corpse, rotting somewhere in a dumpster behind some abortion clinic. At least, not in my experience.

Yes, I have stayed with enough new moms that the hospital knows me, and even lets me carry the new baby from the delivery room to the nursery...what a joy it is to me to cuddle these little ones in my arms, knowing that, without volunteers like me, they would have been nothing but abortion statistics.

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I'm happy that you find fulfillment in your work, and I'm grateful to all of the people who help make all options available to pregnant women.