Sunday Law

Yeah - I was amazed and shocked by it.

But I do not think her proposal has so much to do with combating Sabbath observance (which I am all for) but for combating NO observance.

It's the thin edge of the wedge....

Open you eyes to the message you have received... prophesy will be fulfilled.

God is faithful, God is great!

4 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Please... o lord god forgive us... guide us bring the promise of writing the law of God in our hearts and minds




Christ's Sacrifice Once for All

…King James Bible
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
(Psalm 147:1-20; Romans 3:1-8)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6I n burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Colossians 3:11

Put on the New Self
…and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience

Here's the thing about "Sunday Law". It's not something new. It's not something that's necessarily going to happen in the future (although it could). It already has happened. It already has happened in America. It could happen again... but I think we tend to overlook that and be afraid of it happening in the future, as though it's something new. It's not new. It's actually very old. And when Ellen White talks about it, it's often in the context that her immediate audience - the people she worked with and shepherded every day - was experiencing during her lifetime.

These comments are not intended to contradict, but merely to broaden the perspective on this subject.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Yeah - I was amazed and shocked by it.

But I do not think her proposal has so much to do with combating Sabbath observance (which I am all for) but for combating NO observance.

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Well, if you read all of what Ellen White says about Sunday laws you will find that she says they will be put in place because of the moral decline of the nation. IOW's, they will be enacted to combat NOT going to church, NOT being moral, NOT following God.....

I am aware of that. And Allen's proposal certainly seems to fit that pattern rather well.

That said, there are too many Adventists, too many Messianics and too many Jews who all keep Saturday to have our day of worship legally denigrated.

woobadooba said:

You appear to be overlooking something critical here. Yes, Sunday laws have been established in the past, but not within the context of enforced religion on a worldwide scale.

The Senator in the video was speaking within the context of legislating religion. Not merely enforcing a day of rest from labor as was the case with Sunday laws of the past.

Your comparison is not valid, because it isn't in context with what is implied in the video, nor that which was spoken of by Ellen White.

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You don't have to take anything I say as valid - that's your opinion and you're right to determine what you're going to take seriously or not. But your choice to discredit it doesn't make my opinion or observations completely invalid altogether either. As to the Ellen White thing... I would encourage more research about her life history and the history of the SDA Church. It may not have been on a global scale, but Christians - including those within her family - were being persecuted due to "Sunday Laws" during her lifetime. She spoke directly to her immediate audience at that time. That's not to say that it may not be applicable elsewhere, only to say that is a matter of personal discretion how it may be applied - it may or may not have been intended by her to be applied universally.

I do admit, I didn't watch the video - which is why my comments were not directly addressing the video. What I did submit was more a general cautionary perspective than a direct argument. I'm not interested in debating and arguing this topic.

DaveW-Ohev said:

I am aware of that. And Allen's proposal certainly seems to fit that pattern rather well.

That said, there are too many Adventists, too many Messianics and too many Jews who all keep Saturday to have our day of worship legally denigrated.

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I think I see where I misunderstood part of your post that I originally responded to.

In response to your last paragraph here all I can say is that much that I see happening in the US today, politically, I could never have imagined happening 40 years ago. Our Constitution is under attack on almost a daily basis so to say that our Constitutional rights will never go away is to ignore what is presently happening.

My take on this... I feel that the following statement by Ellen White is helpful when we attempt to understand the nature of the "Mark of the Beast". On one hand she essentially endorses our traditional understanding of this issue, yet she also somewhat cryptically states that there are certain things about the this that we simply don't fully understand yet.

In other words, we should strive to be balanced and humble regarding this. We have more to learn about the Mark of the Beast, so we shouldn't be tempted to think that our understanding about this is flawless. There's definitively more to this than we know today! On the other hand I think it's impossible to downplay the eschatological implications of the fact that the majority of Christendom worships on a common day that God never sanctified.

"The light that we have upon the third angel's message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll; but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. The Lord's command to His servants is: Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. A message that will arouse the churches is to be proclaimed. - 8T p.159

hi, im new here but not new to the subject matter of a NSL. the history of
the US has included religious law at it`s foundation from the beginning. the
constitution specifically forbid`s imposition of any law of a religious nature
unless it is also clearly necessary for the orderly governing of the nation.
EGW describes a condition of great national crisis when religious leaders will
urge introduction of a sunday law to turn away God`s fierce wrath from the
nation, abrogating the principles of the constitution. Efforts were made to
introduce a NSL into law in the 1888 US congress, but were beaten back to
a large extent by A.T. Jones,yes THAT A.T.Jones of the Minneapolis General
Conference fame. since that failure religious organizations, especially the
conservative Evangelicals, have tried to attack the non-religious clause of
the constitutions on several fronts(homosexuality, abortion, etc.), fronts
which in principle we SDA`s may agree with but oppose imposing on others
& making them the law of the land. evangelical activists currently have a very loud voice in political affairs, & I can`t see that influence waning in the near future, in spite of the lax moral standards favored by the majority.
events on a global scale seem to be tending toward a huge threat to world
peace & security revolving around the Muslim fundamentalist crowd, and
especially aimed at usurping christianity as the predominant religious power.
we in america have already seen the havoc that terrorist teams have been
able to inflict. other christian nations have also been attacked. this could
very well be the wave of the future, setting the stage for a powerful and
charasmatic christian figure to emerge & bring on religious warfare. IMHO

spybirddave said:

hi, im new here but not new to the subject matter of a NSL. the history of
the US has included religious law at it`s foundation from the beginning. the
constitution specifically forbid`s imposition of any law of a religious nature
unless it is also clearly necessary for the orderly governing of the nation.
EGW describes a condition of great national crisis when religious leaders will
urge introduction of a sunday law to turn away God`s fierce wrath from the
nation, abrogating the principles of the constitution. Efforts were made to
introduce a NSL into law in the 1888 US congress, but were beaten back to
a large extent by A.T. Jones,yes THAT A.T.Jones of the Minneapolis General
Conference fame. since that failure religious organizations, especially the
conservative Evangelicals, have tried to attack the non-religious clause of
the constitutions on several fronts(homosexuality, abortion, etc.), fronts
which in principle we SDA`s may agree with but oppose imposing on others
& making them the law of the land. evangelical activists currently have a very loud voice in political affairs, & I can`t see that influence waning in the near future, in spite of the lax moral standards favored by the majority.
events on a global scale seem to be tending toward a huge threat to world
peace & security revolving around the Muslim fundamentalist crowd, and
especially aimed at usurping christianity as the predominant religious power.
we in america have already seen the havoc that terrorist teams have been
able to inflict. other christian nations have also been attacked. this could
very well be the wave of the future, setting the stage for a powerful and
charasmatic christian figure to emerge & bring on religious warfare. IMHO

Click to expand...

I can see this being very possible.

Wouldn't a Sunday law as envisioned by Adventists be manifested by the prohibition of all buying and selling on the 1st day of the week? Isn't this a preposterous idea considering our culture?

ricker said:

Wouldn't a Sunday law as envisioned by Adventists be manifested by the prohibition of all buying and selling on the 1st day of the week? Isn't this a preposterous idea considering our culture?

Click to expand...

Not at all. I live in a very secular country, yet shops (with a few exceptions such as petrol stations) are all closed on Sundays. The government has said it wants to allow shops in general to be open on Sundays, but the majority of people is actually against this, so it's doubtful that we'll ever have the opportunity to go shopping on Sunday here in my country.

Now, if there already are Sunday laws mandating shops to be closed on Sunday in my super-secular country, it doesn't require much fantasy to imagine that this easily could happen in the US as well.

Ubuntu said:

Not at all. I live in a very secular country, yet shops (with a few exceptions such as petrol stations) are all closed on Sundays. The government has said it wants to allow shops in general to be open on Sundays, but the majority of people is actually against this, so it's doubtful that we'll ever have the opportunity to go shopping on Sunday here in my country.

Now, if there already are Sunday laws mandating shops to be closed on Sunday in my super-secular country, it doesn't require much fantasy to imagine that this easily could happen in the US as well.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your perspective. I'm not sure what you know of "American" culture, but Sunday is a big shopping day, in general the only things prohibited are auto sales and in certain states liquor. Also there is the sports world, where NASCAR and the NFL and other sports events have a huge Sunday tradition. I used to race motorcycles whose events were exclusively on Sundays, where of course money was exchanged.

Wouldn't the SDA (EGW) scenario of not allowing buying or selling on the first day of the week also include such things as gasoline? Is this prophesy selective concerning the products, or services, or entertainment sold on Sunday? Just wondering.

To change the conversation slightly, I don't see how laws prohibiting buying and selling on Sunday would cause a violent public castigation of people who choose to worship and rest on the seventh day of the week.

A lot of USA retail, hotel, and entertainment industries have much greater sales (meaning quantity of customers and purchases) on Saturdays than on Sundays. Its a bigger shopping day. Sunday is good for shopping too, but there's a lot more on Saturday.

ricker said:

I appreciate your perspective. I'm not sure what you know of "American" culture, but Sunday is a big shopping day, in general the only things prohibited are auto sales and in certain states liquor. Also there is the sports world, where NASCAR and the NFL and other sports events have a huge Sunday tradition. I used to race motorcycles whose events were exclusively on Sundays, where of course money was exchanged.

Wouldn't the SDA (EGW) scenario of not allowing buying or selling on the first day of the week also include such things as gasoline? Is this prophesy selective concerning the products, or services, or entertainment sold on Sunday? Just wondering.

To change the conversation slightly, I don't see how laws prohibiting buying and selling on Sunday would cause a violent public castigation of people who choose to worship and rest on the seventh day of the week.

Click to expand...

I agree with Jojo here; Saturday is the big shopping day in the western industrialized world and I don't think US is any different from the rest of the world in this respect.

I understand why you don't feel that Sunday laws are very likely at the moment, but you have to remember that adventists never have claimed that you'll wake up one day and suddenly Sunday laws will have been implemented while you slept!

Sure, many adventists are paying close attention to everything the pope (and the religious right in the US) does in anticipation of Sunday laws, so it's possible to get the impression that we think that Sunday laws suddenly will be manifested out of the blue, but that's not the understanding of Ellen White and our theologians.

We've always believed that Sunday laws will come as a response to some kind of major crisis. People will be increasingly desperate and they will turn to religion for answers. They will be told by the religious leaders that God is angry because the Sunday has been desecrated:

“As men depart further and further from God, Satan is permitted to have power over the children of disobedience. He hurls destruction among men. There is calamity by land and sea. Property and life are destroyed by fire and flood.” {RH July 16, 1901, par. 5}

“Men in responsible positions [...] from the sacred desk, will urge upon the people the observance of the first day of the week […]. They will point to calamities on land and sea—to the storms of wind, the floods, the earthquakes, the destruction by fire—as judgments indicating God’s displeasure because Sunday is not sacredly observed. These calamities will increase more and more, one disaster will follow close upon the heels of another; and those who make void the law of God will point to the few who are keeping the Sabbath of the fourth commandment as the ones who are bringing wrath upon the world. This falsehood is Satan’s device that he may ensnare the unwary.{ST January 17, 1884, par. 12}

History abundantly demonstrates that religious groups have been singled out for persecution before, so I'm afraid that this isn't paranoia but a quite realistic expectation. When you are different from the majority you always risk unwanted attention from bigots… If you want a Biblical illustration of this you should read the book of Esther. History has a tendency of repeating itself.

The Bible doesn't say that those that accept the mark of the beast won't be allowed to buy or sell... only those that reject the mark.

Ubuntu said:

I agree with Jojo here; Saturday is the big shopping day in the western industrialized world and I don't think US is any different from the rest of the world in this respect.

I understand why you don't feel that Sunday laws are very likely at the moment, but you have to remember that adventists never have claimed that you'll wake up one day and suddenly Sunday laws will have been implemented while you slept!

Sure, many adventists are paying close attention to everything the pope (and the religious right in the US) does in anticipation of Sunday laws, so it's possible to get the impression that we think that Sunday laws suddenly will be manifested out of the blue, but that's not the understanding of Ellen White and our theologians.

We've always believed that Sunday laws will come as a response to some kind of major crisis. People will be increasingly desperate and they will turn to religion for answers. They will be told by the religious leaders that God is angry because the Sunday has been desecrated:

“As men depart further and further from God, Satan is permitted to have power over the children of disobedience. He hurls destruction among men. There is calamity by land and sea. Property and life are destroyed by fire and flood.” {RH July 16, 1901, par. 5}

“Men in responsible positions [...] from the sacred desk, will urge upon the people the observance of the first day of the week […]. They will point to calamities on land and sea—to the storms of wind, the floods, the earthquakes, the destruction by fire—as judgments indicating God’s displeasure because Sunday is not sacredly observed. These calamities will increase more and more, one disaster will follow close upon the heels of another; and those who make void the law of God will point to the few who are keeping the Sabbath of the fourth commandment as the ones who are bringing wrath upon the world. This falsehood is Satan’s device that he may ensnare the unwary.{ST January 17, 1884, par. 12}

History abundantly demonstrates that religious groups have been singled out for persecution before, so I'm afraid that this isn't paranoia but a quite realistic expectation. When you are different from the majority you always risk unwanted attention from bigots… If you want a Biblical illustration of this you should read the book of Esther. History has a tendency of repeating itself.

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So you are saying that an event, or events, will turn the US to total Sunday observance, and therefore turn them against those who aren't Christians who rest on Sunday. I'm just wondering how this much heightened traditional Christian philosophy would not single out such groups as Muslims, who number far more and are growing, before the SDA's.

Edit to add: I am a Lutheran who works at a secular job every Sunday afternoon after I've worshipped Sunday morning. No resting all day here!