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As long as Israelis are safe and sound, that's all I care about. Long live the Zionists!Oh, and why would YOU?
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As long as Israelis are safe and sound, that's all I care about. Long live the Zionists!Oh, and why would YOU?
And if Jesus does actually matter, then why are so many Christian so willing to abandon Him at the drop of a hat, the moment it means it might actually cost you something?
No one said anything about abandoning Christ.
Romans, 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...
God's relationship with governments is different than His dealings with the individual. God institutes government.
The Government of Israel has not only the right to defend against foreign invaders, it has the obligation. This holier than you attitude is misguided.
When the people of a nation acquiesce to a governments leading/misleading it is a de facto agreement. While some citizens of Palestine may not chose leadership by Hamas their silence unfortunately makes them culpable for the actions of Hamas whose stated goal is to remove Israel from existence.
As long as Israelis are safe and sound, that's all I care about. Long live the Zionists!
Scripture says we should obey those in authority. It does not say mans authority supercedes Gods. If men believe a law of men is in conflict with righteousness they are to follow conscience. There may be repercussions.
This is not a thread about what is Christian or not. There are plenty of forums here for that type of discussion, where I'd be happy to explain it to you. But we're not there, we're here.Is this you're attempt at satire, or are you speaking from a place of sincerity?
If sincere, how do you justify this attitude in the context of being a believing, practicing Christian?
-CryptoLutheran
Ironic you discussing conscience in light of your previous question to me. Anyways....So, for example, rather than just accept Israel's current activity in and toward Gaza, I should instead conform my conscience to what God declares is righteous--right?
-CryptoLutheran
You have know idea how it is for those who have experienced near-starvation, devastation and killings of family members by an occupation force. Some people have sympathy for the strong; others for the underdogs.Has anyone here cried themselves to sleep thinking about the poor, poor Palestinians? I know I haven't.
This is making them and even non-Zionist Jews less safe. Israel is damaging Judaism.As long as Israelis are safe and sound, that's all I care about. Long live the Zionists!
When on Oct. 8, not a single person there showed disappointment in what Hamas had done, I knew instinctively which side was morally corrupt. That same side in tue U.S. publicly voiced how they felt "invogorated" and happy by the murders..!This is making them and even non-Zionist Jews less safe. Israel is damaging Judaism.
This is not a thread about what is Christian or not. There are plenty of forums here for that type of discussion, where I'd be happy to explain it to you. But we're not there, we're here.
We're in politics
Ironic you discussing conscience in light of your previous question to me. Anyways....
Where is "there"?When on Oct. 8, not a single person there showed disappointment in what Hamas had done, I knew instinctively which side was morally corrupt. That same side in tue U.S. publicly voiced how they felt "invogorated" and happy by the murders..!
Any of what people? Innocent Gazans such as babies and toddlers? Or maybe those who are conceived but yet unborn in a Gazan womb?I'm not for those people! Any of those people! Know that!
How about you start a thread on it and PM me the destination. This is a place where atheists and non-Christians like to post, who probably don't want to listen to our sermons on Christianity. We should respect them enough to not put them through that... Well, at least I do.Honestly, this comes across as you admitting that you can't answer my question, or you don't want to because you know it probably won't be a good look.
This shouldn't be difficult: If Christians engage the political through a Christian filter, indeed as all people engage the political through their own filters of values, virtues, beliefs, etc Then asking for a Christian basis for something seems like a totally valid question to ask.
So either your position is defensible from an explicitly Christian perspective, or it's not. Either you can make that argument, or you can't.
"We're in politics" isn't a valid reason to avoid this particular dimension of political discourse here.
And what you stated isn't, by the way, purely political--it is also a moral statement and a moral valuation which you've made. It's a moral position with political ramifications; not just "pure politics".
Asking for a Christian foundation for a moral position and its political ramifications is a totally valid question and discussion to have.
I don't need you to say what is and isn't Christian in some theological way--theology is better left on the theology board if we are just talking theology. But when faith meets politics, politics is a perfectly fine place to have that conversation.
So, again, what is the basis in your Christian faith that would justify the statement you made to which I responded. Is there one?
If by ironic you mean totally consistent, then I guess it's ironic. My question to you is actually one related to conscience. I would assume that would be obvious; but in case it wasn't:
I subscribe to a presumption that a Christian is conscience-bound to her or his Christian religion. In the abstract that would mean a conscience which is in conformity with the broad-stroke values and principles of the Christian faith as received in Scripture, the historic Christian tradition, in the concept of Christian virtues rooted in the idea of righteousness; of an objective right and wrong, and so on and so forth. Meaning that if my beliefs, or my ideas about something, are in conflict with the teachings of my espoused Christian faith, then that indicates a failing on my part to have right beliefs and ideas. If I, for example, believe that profaning the Name of God is okay, but this goes against the commandment that says to not profane the Name of God; then I'm the one who has erred. In fact we would call this error sin. I have sinned, I am sinning, in thought, word, and deed. And I am, therefore, according to the precepts of the Christian religion to confess and repent, because sin is something that creates a misalignment and injury to my relationship with God--I am actively resisting the sanctifying work of God who, by His grace, wants to make me more like Jesus. Therefore biblical injunctions such as "Have this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus" or "Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" are applicable to me; and that these are for my benefit because God's intended purpose for my life is to be conformed to Him; because my own way of doing things is a way which runs counter to God. That my inclination toward sin is bad, that I need the Savior, I need grace, I need redemption, and salvation, and sanctification.
Just a basic idea that I am not the one who determines right and wrong; I am not lord nor chief nor captain; that my life is not my own it was bought with a price. And that in my baptism, Jesus has claimed me as His own; and I am therefore--if I should call myself "Christian"--obligated to fealty to Christ the Lord. I am to obey Him, I am to be conformed to Him, and my existence is to be shaped and identified by Him. Therefore, conscience is, in Christ, bound to God.
In which case, a Christian should have their values, principles, and overall moral alignment shaped by the fact that they are a Christian.
In which case; there is nothing ironic at all. How I view other people is directly related to Divine Command and Christian conscience. Do you disagree with that?
-CryptoLutheran
You can think of me as Scrooge if you think it's bad that I lack the same sympathy you have for the babies. It's true that I lack sympathy for them because of their parents.Where is "there"?
Any of what people? Innocent Gazans such as babies and toddlers? Or maybe those who are conceived but yet unborn in a Gazan womb?
Hamas did the bombing, not all the Palestinians.Do you think the Palestinians will think twice next time they get the urge to commit a terrorist attack against innocent Israeli citizens?
Except, of course, for "Palestine, Texas", they will need some place to displace all of the Arabs already living in Texas to.I think if Bible Belt USA folk want to keep bombing Palestinians, maybe instead they should just give the Jews Texas, ship them all over and let them call Texas Israel and make it a Jewish country. Arabs will be happy, Jews will be happy and Bible belt USA folk will be happy. No need to kill and bomb people any more.
Yes, and keep expanding their borders over time too. And the rest of the world can paint USA folks as murderous and genocidal and antisemite when they complain about Texas being stolen from them.Except, of course, for "Palestine, Texas", they will need some place to displace all of the Arabs already living in Texas to.
conscience to what God declares is righteous--right?
Absolutely.So violating Romans 13 is “okay” if one is obeying God rather than the Government that God caused to be in place?