Just to bring the Israel/Palestinian war into perspective.

[Landon Caeli]

Oh, and why would YOU?

As long as Israelis are safe and sound, that's all I care about. Long live the Zionists!

 

[ViaCrucis]

And if Jesus does actually matter, then why are so many Christian so willing to abandon Him at the drop of a hat, the moment it means it might actually cost you something?
No one said anything about abandoning Christ.

Romans, 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...


God's relationship with governments is different than His dealings with the individual. God institutes government.

When you say God institutes government, do you mean in a broad sense: God wills that human society be in some way structured toward order; or in a narrower sense: God personally institutes governments.

I'm curious how, then, you relate that idea with the following:

The Government of Israel has not only the right to defend against foreign invaders, it has the obligation. This holier than you attitude is misguided.

When the people of a nation acquiesce to a governments leading/misleading it is a de facto agreement. While some citizens of Palestine may not chose leadership by Hamas their silence unfortunately makes them culpable for the actions of Hamas whose stated goal is to remove Israel from existence.

Does God support the Israeli government?
Does God support the Palestinian government?

Because it seems like you support what the Israeli government is doing, but are in opposition to the Palestinian government.

How do we make a determination of which we should support? Do we judge actions? Presumably your disfavor (I am, of course, only assuming you have disfavor, as it seems implied in what you've written above) of the Palestinian government is based upon the actions of that government. Would that be correct?

Then it would also be fair to judge the Israeli government based upon its actions, yes?

Which begs the question: How is the Israeli government more justified than the Palestinian government?

And if the Palestinian people, even those who disagree with Hamas, are still culpable; and thus are acceptable casualties in an armed conflict; then the same would also be true of the Israeli people viz-a-viz their government. In which case you've just argued that when Hamas attacks innocent civilians or bombs Israel and regular people die--that is justifiable casualty in armed conflict.

What makes Israel any different than Palestine/Hamas here? How does "Israel has a right to defend itself" when talking about the current salting the earth and razing cities to rubble kind of conflict going on in Gaza right now not then also have a reciprocal correlation with "Palestine has a right to defend itself" in regard to the events of October 7th, or other acts of Palestinian violence against Israel?

If I can condemn what Hamas did, but can't condemn what Israel has done/is doing--that seems like blatant hypocrisy to me. It's applying two different moral standards based on subjective preference; rather than applying an objective moral standard that applies to everyone.

Either murder is wrong, or it's not. It shouldn't matter whether it's Bob who murders Steve, or Steve who murders Bob. Wrong is wrong is wrong.

If Romans 13 means that God supports Israeli policy against Palestine, then it also means that God supports Palestinian policy against Israel. If silent complacence with a government's evil makes one culpable and thus fit for retribution; then that applies to you, to me, and to everyone. Doesn't that excuse, if not totally justifies, acts of terror?

Perhaps I've misunderstood your position--if so I apologize, and could you introduce more clarity?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

As long as Israelis are safe and sound, that's all I care about. Long live the Zionists!

Is this you're attempt at satire, or are you speaking from a place of sincerity?

If sincere, how do you justify this attitude in the context of being a believing, practicing Christian?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Scripture says we should obey those in authority. It does not say mans authority supercedes Gods. If men believe a law of men is in conflict with righteousness they are to follow conscience. There may be repercussions.

So, for example, rather than just accept Israel's current activity in and toward Gaza, I should instead conform my conscience to what God declares is righteous--right?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Landon Caeli]

Is this you're attempt at satire, or are you speaking from a place of sincerity?

If sincere, how do you justify this attitude in the context of being a believing, practicing Christian?

-CryptoLutheran

This is not a thread about what is Christian or not. There are plenty of forums here for that type of discussion, where I'd be happy to explain it to you. But we're not there, we're here.

We're in politics

 

[Landon Caeli]

So, for example, rather than just accept Israel's current activity in and toward Gaza, I should instead conform my conscience to what God declares is righteous--right?

-CryptoLutheran

Ironic you discussing conscience in light of your previous question to me. Anyways....

 

[rambot]

As long as Israelis are safe and sound, that's all I care about. Long live the Zionists!

So why were you upset at what I said before?

 

[DaisyDay]

Has anyone here cried themselves to sleep thinking about the poor, poor Palestinians? I know I haven't.

You have know idea how it is for those who have experienced near-starvation, devastation and killings of family members by an occupation force. Some people have sympathy for the strong; others for the underdogs.

 

[DaisyDay]

As long as Israelis are safe and sound, that's all I care about. Long live the Zionists!

This is making them and even non-Zionist Jews less safe. Israel is damaging Judaism.

 

[Landon Caeli]

This is making them and even non-Zionist Jews less safe. Israel is damaging Judaism.

When on Oct. 8, not a single person there showed disappointment in what Hamas had done, I knew instinctively which side was morally corrupt. That same side in tue U.S. publicly voiced how they felt "invogorated" and happy by the murders..!

I'm not for those people! Any of those people! Know that!

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is not a thread about what is Christian or not. There are plenty of forums here for that type of discussion, where I'd be happy to explain it to you. But we're not there, we're here.

We're in politics

Honestly, this comes across as you admitting that you can't answer my question, or you don't want to because you know it probably won't be a good look.

This shouldn't be difficult: If Christians engage the political through a Christian filter, indeed as all people engage the political through their own filters of values, virtues, beliefs, etc Then asking for a Christian basis for something seems like a totally valid question to ask.

So either your position is defensible from an explicitly Christian perspective, or it's not. Either you can make that argument, or you can't.

"We're in politics" isn't a valid reason to avoid this particular dimension of political discourse here.

And what you stated isn't, by the way, purely political--it is also a moral statement and a moral valuation which you've made. It's a moral position with political ramifications; not just "pure politics".

Asking for a Christian foundation for a moral position and its political ramifications is a totally valid question and discussion to have.

I don't need you to say what is and isn't Christian in some theological way--theology is better left on the theology board if we are just talking theology. But when faith meets politics, politics is a perfectly fine place to have that conversation.

So, again, what is the basis in your Christian faith that would justify the statement you made to which I responded. Is there one?

Ironic you discussing conscience in light of your previous question to me. Anyways....

If by ironic you mean totally consistent, then I guess it's ironic. My question to you is actually one related to conscience. I would assume that would be obvious; but in case it wasn't:

I subscribe to a presumption that a Christian is conscience-bound to her or his Christian religion. In the abstract that would mean a conscience which is in conformity with the broad-stroke values and principles of the Christian faith as received in Scripture, the historic Christian tradition, in the concept of Christian virtues rooted in the idea of righteousness; of an objective right and wrong, and so on and so forth. Meaning that if my beliefs, or my ideas about something, are in conflict with the teachings of my espoused Christian faith, then that indicates a failing on my part to have right beliefs and ideas. If I, for example, believe that profaning the Name of God is okay, but this goes against the commandment that says to not profane the Name of God; then I'm the one who has erred. In fact we would call this error sin. I have sinned, I am sinning, in thought, word, and deed. And I am, therefore, according to the precepts of the Christian religion to confess and repent, because sin is something that creates a misalignment and injury to my relationship with God--I am actively resisting the sanctifying work of God who, by His grace, wants to make me more like Jesus. Therefore biblical injunctions such as "Have this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus" or "Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" are applicable to me; and that these are for my benefit because God's intended purpose for my life is to be conformed to Him; because my own way of doing things is a way which runs counter to God. That my inclination toward sin is bad, that I need the Savior, I need grace, I need redemption, and salvation, and sanctification.

Just a basic idea that I am not the one who determines right and wrong; I am not lord nor chief nor captain; that my life is not my own it was bought with a price. And that in my baptism, Jesus has claimed me as His own; and I am therefore--if I should call myself "Christian"--obligated to fealty to Christ the Lord. I am to obey Him, I am to be conformed to Him, and my existence is to be shaped and identified by Him. Therefore, conscience is, in Christ, bound to God.

In which case, a Christian should have their values, principles, and overall moral alignment shaped by the fact that they are a Christian.

In which case; there is nothing ironic at all. How I view other people is directly related to Divine Command and Christian conscience. Do you disagree with that?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DaisyDay]

When on Oct. 8, not a single person there showed disappointment in what Hamas had done, I knew instinctively which side was morally corrupt. That same side in tue U.S. publicly voiced how they felt "invogorated" and happy by the murders..!

Where is "there"?

I'm not for those people! Any of those people! Know that!

Any of what people? Innocent Gazans such as babies and toddlers? Or maybe those who are conceived but yet unborn in a Gazan womb?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Honestly, this comes across as you admitting that you can't answer my question, or you don't want to because you know it probably won't be a good look.

This shouldn't be difficult: If Christians engage the political through a Christian filter, indeed as all people engage the political through their own filters of values, virtues, beliefs, etc Then asking for a Christian basis for something seems like a totally valid question to ask.

So either your position is defensible from an explicitly Christian perspective, or it's not. Either you can make that argument, or you can't.

"We're in politics" isn't a valid reason to avoid this particular dimension of political discourse here.

And what you stated isn't, by the way, purely political--it is also a moral statement and a moral valuation which you've made. It's a moral position with political ramifications; not just "pure politics".

Asking for a Christian foundation for a moral position and its political ramifications is a totally valid question and discussion to have.

I don't need you to say what is and isn't Christian in some theological way--theology is better left on the theology board if we are just talking theology. But when faith meets politics, politics is a perfectly fine place to have that conversation.

So, again, what is the basis in your Christian faith that would justify the statement you made to which I responded. Is there one?





If by ironic you mean totally consistent, then I guess it's ironic. My question to you is actually one related to conscience. I would assume that would be obvious; but in case it wasn't:

I subscribe to a presumption that a Christian is conscience-bound to her or his Christian religion. In the abstract that would mean a conscience which is in conformity with the broad-stroke values and principles of the Christian faith as received in Scripture, the historic Christian tradition, in the concept of Christian virtues rooted in the idea of righteousness; of an objective right and wrong, and so on and so forth. Meaning that if my beliefs, or my ideas about something, are in conflict with the teachings of my espoused Christian faith, then that indicates a failing on my part to have right beliefs and ideas. If I, for example, believe that profaning the Name of God is okay, but this goes against the commandment that says to not profane the Name of God; then I'm the one who has erred. In fact we would call this error sin. I have sinned, I am sinning, in thought, word, and deed. And I am, therefore, according to the precepts of the Christian religion to confess and repent, because sin is something that creates a misalignment and injury to my relationship with God--I am actively resisting the sanctifying work of God who, by His grace, wants to make me more like Jesus. Therefore biblical injunctions such as "Have this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus" or "Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" are applicable to me; and that these are for my benefit because God's intended purpose for my life is to be conformed to Him; because my own way of doing things is a way which runs counter to God. That my inclination toward sin is bad, that I need the Savior, I need grace, I need redemption, and salvation, and sanctification.

Just a basic idea that I am not the one who determines right and wrong; I am not lord nor chief nor captain; that my life is not my own it was bought with a price. And that in my baptism, Jesus has claimed me as His own; and I am therefore--if I should call myself "Christian"--obligated to fealty to Christ the Lord. I am to obey Him, I am to be conformed to Him, and my existence is to be shaped and identified by Him. Therefore, conscience is, in Christ, bound to God.

In which case, a Christian should have their values, principles, and overall moral alignment shaped by the fact that they are a Christian.

In which case; there is nothing ironic at all. How I view other people is directly related to Divine Command and Christian conscience. Do you disagree with that?

-CryptoLutheran

How about you start a thread on it and PM me the destination. This is a place where atheists and non-Christians like to post, who probably don't want to listen to our sermons on Christianity. We should respect them enough to not put them through that... Well, at least I do.

Try the "Christian's only" politics section. That's where something like that belongs. Not here.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Where is "there"?

Any of what people? Innocent Gazans such as babies and toddlers? Or maybe those who are conceived but yet unborn in a Gazan womb?

You can think of me as Scrooge if you think it's bad that I lack the same sympathy you have for the babies. It's true that I lack sympathy for them because of their parents.

A lot of people feel the same way as me. Sorry to say, but it is what it is.

 

[Landon Caeli]

But then again, none of you post about your sadness about the Israeli babies murdered or kidnapped by the evil ones.

Are those who support evil, evil themselves? Take that to the Christians only section too.

 

[stevil]

Do you think the Palestinians will think twice next time they get the urge to commit a terrorist attack against innocent Israeli citizens?

Hamas did the bombing, not all the Palestinians.

The Isreales stole Arab land after world war 2, They have continued to steal land and continued to bomb and subjigate palistinians since.
It is no wonder the Arabs and Palestinians aren't happy.

I think if Bible Belt USA folk want to keep bombing Palestinians, maybe instead they should just give the Jews Texas, ship them all over and let them call Texas Israel and make it a Jewish country. Arabs will be happy, Jews will be happy and Bible belt USA folk will be happy. No need to kill and bomb people any more.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I think if Bible Belt USA folk want to keep bombing Palestinians, maybe instead they should just give the Jews Texas, ship them all over and let them call Texas Israel and make it a Jewish country. Arabs will be happy, Jews will be happy and Bible belt USA folk will be happy. No need to kill and bomb people any more.

Except, of course, for "Palestine, Texas", they will need some place to displace all of the Arabs already living in Texas to.

 

[stevil]

Except, of course, for "Palestine, Texas", they will need some place to displace all of the Arabs already living in Texas to.

Yes, and keep expanding their borders over time too. And the rest of the world can paint USA folks as murderous and genocidal and antisemite when they complain about Texas being stolen from them.

 

[Palmfever]

conscience to what God declares is righteous--right?

You seem to be bent on discussing what 'you perceive' as Israels wrongdoing. Yet, you have no replies concerning the atrocities of Hamas. Should you desire to engage in honest dialogue perhaps we will continue, regardless I grow weary of what I see as a predisposition to adhere to a fallacious narrative. Perhaps it would be best if you sought for more information from sources other than the lamestream news media.

Proverbs 18:17
“The first to state his case seems right,
until his opponent begins to cross-examine him.”

Hamas, appears to be more proficient at BS than Israel, or maybe their simple lies are more palatable to the liberal mindset.

As to your question on whether or not you should just conform your conscience to what God declares is righteous. I would unequivocally say yes. I do not however suspect that your version of what is righteous aligns with mine, then we would not be having this conversation.
In Christ

 

[Palmfever]

So violating Romans 13 is “okay” if one is obeying God rather than the Government that God caused to be in place?

Absolutely.