Is God interested in our health?

[daq]

The story about Noah was written by Jews and is found in Jewish literature. These are facts, not speculations. What clean/unclean meant is defined by the authors (Jews), not by you. BTW, I am not making a point that the story did or did not happen. I am making a point that the clean/unclean is in the Jewish context, no other context can be proven.


Just read few pages forward, there are many commands to kill. I guess you already heard about animal sacrifices, for example. Or about Israel conquering the Palestine with the instruction "do not leave anyone alive".

Exodus 32:25-29 KJV
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

Deuteronomy 33:8-11 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

Right, for example you expect me to believe the Father is a monster who blessed the Levites for physically killing their families at the golden calf incident because that is your carnal minded physical understanding of the Torah. There is no love for the Father in the neanderthal way of thinking.

 

[trophy33]

Exodus 32:25-29 KJV
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

Deuteronomy 33:8-11 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

Right, for example you expect me to believe the Father is a monster who blessed the Levites for physically killing their families at the golden calf incident because that is your carnal minded physical understanding of the Torah. There is no love for the Father in the neanderthal way of thinking.

At this point, you are just arguing with the verses you yourself found and quoted, not with me. So I have nothing to add.

 

[daq]

At this point, you are just arguing with the verses you yourself found and quoted, not with me. So I have nothing to add.

No, I am not arguing with what I quoted: you simply do not understand it because you do not believe there is a difference between ratsach and harag as I already tried to explain to you. Ratsach is physical killing, harag is spiritual cutting off, and if you were a Hebrew in those days, according to your understanding of the commandment in Exodus 32 quoted previously, you would end up a murderer if you carried out the command according to your erroneous understanding.

Moreover the Master himself teaches the same and even expounds the Exodus 32 passage for those with ears to hear and eyes to see. These things have been discussed in the following post, and thread, and in quite a few other places on this board.

The Works of the Law

I've never seen Studyman get mad at anyone and people full of hate are always full of anger. Then why does he keep moving the goal posts and perverting what I post? I posted the quotes from the Master to make one primary point in a debate over one primary thing: hearing is understanding...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Gary K]

I think my points are clear and said in the post you quoted:

a) clean/unclean mean what they mean in the Jewish context (i.e. as defined by the Mosaic Law)

b) "you will not kill/murder" commandment does not mean Jews were not allowed to kill animals for food or for sacrifices or even people in wars or in other contexts.

So you can't point out a logical fallacy. Just like I knew it would be.

 

[trophy33]

No, I am not arguing with what I quoted: you simply do not understand it because you do not believe there is a difference between ratsach and harag... as I already tried to explain to you. Ratsach is physical killing, harag is spiritual cutting off, and if you were a Hebrew in those days, according to your understanding of the commandment in Exodus 32 quoted previously, you would end up a murderer if you carried out the command according to your erroneous understanding.

Moreover the Master himself teaches the same and even expounds the Exodus 32 passage for those with ears to hear and eyes to see. These things have been discussed in the following post, and thread, and in quite a few other places on this board.

The Works of the Law

I've never seen Studyman get mad at anyone and people full of hate are always full of anger. Then why does he keep moving the goal posts and perverting what I post? I posted the quotes from the Master to make one primary point in a debate over one primary thing: hearing is understanding...

www.christianforums.com

You seem to think that you discovered something groundbreaking, while working with a lexicon. But no, Israelites were instructed to kill animals or people many times. Physically.

For example:

Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.
Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death.
Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.
Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.
If a bull gores a man or woman to death, the bull is to be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten
Do not allow a sorceress to live.
Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.

Bring the bull to the front of the tent of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. Slaughter it in the Lord’s presence at the entrance to the tent of meeting. Take some of the bull’s blood and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour out the rest of it at the base of the altar.

Take one of the rams, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. Slaughter it and take the blood and splash it against the sides of the altar. Cut the ram into pieces and wash the internal organs and the legs

Take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. Slaughter it, take some of its blood and put it on the lobes of the right ears of Aaron and his sons, on the thumbs of their right hands, and on the big toes of their right feet. Then splash blood against the sides of the altar.

This is what you are to offer on the altar regularly each day: two lambs a year old.

Various random places just in Exodus (NIV)

 

[trophy33]

So you can't point out a logical fallacy. Just like I knew it would be.

Indeed Gary, indeed.

 

[daq]

You seem to think that you discovered something groundbreaking, while working with a lexicon. But no, Israelites were instructed to kill animals or people many times. Physically.

For example:

Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.
Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death.
Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.
Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.
If a bull gores a man or woman to death, the bull is to be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten
Do not allow a sorceress to live.
Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.

Bring the bull to the front of the tent of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. Slaughter it in the Lord’s presence at the entrance to the tent of meeting. Take some of the bull’s blood and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour out the rest of it at the base of the altar.

Take one of the rams, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. Slaughter it and take the blood and splash it against the sides of the altar. Cut the ram into pieces and wash the internal organs and the legs

Take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. Slaughter it, take some of its blood and put it on the lobes of the right ears of Aaron and his sons, on the thumbs of their right hands, and on the big toes of their right feet. Then splash blood against the sides of the altar.

This is what you are to offer on the altar regularly each day: two lambs a year old.

Various random places just in Exodus (NIV)

It takes about ten times more work to refute an error or explain a misconception than it does for someone to post the error and-or misconception: so even your small post is way too much for me to wade through and try to explain every detail when I know you are not actually interested to begin with.

I offered what I know will help to point you on a path to find the truth on your own: what you do with that is between you and Elohim, whose spiritual Word we are discussing here. If you are going to start posting scripture lists, and expecting me to wade through them and try to answer every little thing, just so you can post another list without paying any attention to the answers you receive, then I know you will not stop until you think you have a "gotcha moment", thus we are done, at least for now.

 

[trophy33]

It takes about ten times more work to refute an error or explain a misconception than it does for someone to post the error and-or misconception: so even your small post is way too much for me to wade through and try to explain every detail when I know you are not actually interested to begin with.

I offered what I know will help to point you on a path to find the truth on your own: what you do with that is between you and Elohim, whose spiritual Word we are discussing here. If you are going to start posting scripture lists, and expecting me to wade through them and try to answer every little thing, just so you can post another list without paying any attention to the answers you receive, then I know you will not stop until you think you have a "gotcha moment", thus we are done, at least for now.

Thats fine with me, you are right I am not interested in some complicated "explanation" of such obvious verses, anyway.

 

[daq]

Thats fine with me, you are right I am not interested in some complicated "explanation" of such obvious verses, anyway.

Yes, you've made it quite obvious, but I'll leave you with one thing.

John 18:29-31 KJV
29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?
30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.
31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death: [αποκτεινω]

John 19:6-7 KJV
6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, [αποθνησκω] because he made himself the Son of God.

They are playing word games to avoid outright lying: but they surely know something you do not.

 

[trophy33]

Yes, you've made it quite obvious, but I'll leave you with one thing.

John 18:29-31 KJV
29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?
30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.
31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death: [αποκτεινω]

John 19:6-7 KJV
6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, [αποθνησκω] because he made himself the Son of God.

They are playing word games to avoid outright lying: but they surely know something you do not.

Jews were not allowed to put any man to death because of the Roman law. They ignored it in practice many times (like when stoning Stephen), but here, before the Roman prefect Pilate, the Jewish officials had to submit to their official status in the Roman empire.

Legally, "Jews had lost this power since the time that Archelaus was deposed, and Judæa became a Roman province (A.D. 6 or 7)".
Biblehub - John 18:31 commentaries

In summary, the Mosaic Law instructed Jews to put men to death in many instances, however, the Roman power took this from them. It has nothing to do with your views.

 

[daq]

Jews were not allowed to put any man to death because of the Roman law. They ignored it in practice many times (like when stoning Stephen), but here, before the Roman prefect Pilate, the Jewish officials had to submit to their official status in the Roman empire.

Legally, "Jews had lost this power since the time that Archelaus was deposed, and Judæa became a Roman province (A.D. 6 or 7)".
Biblehub - John 18:31 commentaries

In summary, the Mosaic Law instructed Jews to put men to death in many instances, however, the Roman power took this from them. It has nothing to do with your views.

It would be insulting to Pilate to answer in such a way after he just told them to judge the Meshiah according to their own Torah, as if to remind Pilate of Roman law, when he had just given them permission to do what he said. Moreover we have a good idea of how the early church understood this passage because we have this episode recounted in the Acts of Pilate, a.k.a. Gospel of Nicodemus, wherein Pilate responds to them, Has Elohim forbidden you to kill, and allowed me?

Gospel of Nicodemus 3:1 (M.R. James Translation)
1 And Pilate was filled with indignation and went forth without the judgement hall and saith unto them: I call the Sun to witness that I find no fault in this man. The Jews answered and said to the governor: If this man were not a malefactor we would not have delivered him unto thee. And Pilate said: Take ye him and judge him according to your law. The Jews said unto Pilate: It is not lawful for us to put any man to death. Pilate said: Hath God forbidden you to slay, and allowed me?
Gospel of Nicodemus

Other texts even contain the scripture quote from Exodus 20:13. It is very clear how the early church understood this exchange, even if the work is not canonical: they understood this exchange to mean that the Yhudim were speaking of the Torah, not Roman law.

 

[trophy33]

It would be insulting to Pilate to answer in such a way after he just told them to judge the Meshiah according to their own Torah, as if to remind Pilate of Roman law, when he had just given them permission to do what he said. Moreover we have a good idea of how the early church understood this passage because we have this episode recounted in the Acts of Pilate, a.k.a. Gospel of Nicodemus, wherein Pilate responds to them, Has Elohim forbidden you to kill, and allowed me?

Gospel of Nicodemus 3:1 (M.R. James Translation)
1 And Pilate was filled with indignation and went forth without the judgement hall and saith unto them: I call the Sun to witness that I find no fault in this man. The Jews answered and said to the governor: If this man were not a malefactor we would not have delivered him unto thee. And Pilate said: Take ye him and judge him according to your law. The Jews said unto Pilate: It is not lawful for us to put any man to death. Pilate said: Hath God forbidden you to slay, and allowed me?
Gospel of Nicodemus

Other texts even contain the scripture quote from Exodus 20:13. It is very clear how the early church understood this exchange, even if the work is not canonical: they understood this exchange to mean that the Yhudim were speaking of the Torah, not Roman law.

I see no point in discussing an apocryphal work, composed of several unknown authors in the Middle ages. Is this the actual source of your views?

 

[daq]

I see no point in discussing an apocryphal work, composed of several unknown authors in the Middle ages.

The existing forms of the text are estimated to be no earlier than fourth or fifth century, but "It can be shown that the work behind the Christian Acts of Pilate must have originated very early", certainly not the Middle ages. Moreover there are some very ancient concepts spoken by the Yhudim in this account which are not necessary to go into here for obvious reasons.

Gospel of Nicodemus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Is this the actual source of your views?

Of course not, see Exodus 20:13, which started this whole discussion. One either believes it or one does not, and those who see death everywhere in the Torah only see death because they choose death, (Dt 30:11-20), and do not believe what Exo 20:13 says without adding to it or diminishing from it. And the same invariably end up making the Elohim of the Hebrews out to be a hypocrite because of a natural minded understanding of the Living Oracles of the Living Elohim who is Spirit.

"You shall not kill." ...... "Okay, now I am angry: go kill everyone."

Utter caveman buffoonery.

 

[trophy33]

The existing forms of the text are estimated to be no earlier than fourth or fifth century, but "It can be shown that the work behind the Christian Acts of Pilate must have originated very early", certainly not the Middle ages. Moreover there are some very ancient concepts spoken by the Yhudim in this account which are not necessary to go into here for obvious reasons.

Gospel of Nicodemus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As I said, its an apocryphal book composed of various authors in the middle ages. Also, your quotation seems to a specific translation, not found in other translations. Also, your interpretation of the quote does not seem to be supported by the quote itself. However, this is not important for me, so this is the last note about it.

Of course not, see Exodus 20:13, which started this whole discussion. One either believes it or one does not, and those who see death everywhere in the Torah only see death because they choose death, (Dt 30:11-20), and do not believe what Exo 20:13 says without adding to it or diminishing from it. And the same invariably end up making the Elohim of the Hebrews out to be a hypocrite because of a natural minded understanding of the Living Oracles of the Living Elohim who is Spirit.

"You shall not kill." ...... "Okay, now I am angry: go kill everyone."

Utter caveman buffoonery.

You created a huge ideological construct upon one thing - your individual and extraordinary view of one sentence in the book of Exodus - while ignoring like hundred of sentences in the book of Exodus, Deuteronomy and other ones, not supporting your view.

Which is absurd, for obvious reasons. Thats why nobody who knows the Bible or history agrees with your view.

 

[daq]

As I said, its an apocryphal book composed of various authors in the middle ages. Also, your quotation seems to a specific translation, not found in other translations. Also, your interpretation of the quote does not seem to be supported by the quote itself. However, this is not important for me, so this is the last note about it.


You created a huge ideological construct upon one thing - your individual and extraordinary view of one sentence in the book of Exodus - while ignoring like hundred of sentences in the book of Exodus, Deuteronomy and other ones, not supporting your view.

Which is absurd, for obvious reasons. Thats why nobody who knows the Bible or history agrees with your view.

Bloviation is good for the anger index once in a while, good for you, for letting off some steam: but now back to reality, the fact remains that you take different Hebrew words and render them all as physical killing in the translation scriptorium of your mind. However, just because all of your favorite highly esteemed, highly paid, natural minded translator teams like the NIV do and say the same things that you also do and say does not mean you and they and the natural minded world are correct to trample the scripture in that way.

Things that differ are not the same: such a casual, liberal, nonchalant view toward the scripture is killing you, yes, putting you to death, and I would strongly suggest that you not to take that literally because Elohim does not go around physically killing His beloved creation.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Therefore, from the point of view of the Jewish authors, Noah already knew the concept of clean and unclean animals before it was given by Moses. Similarly like they pushed the Sabbath back to the creation week, before it was given by Moses. Jewish authors after Babylon wrote these events as a retrospection, to create their specific Jewish mythological history.

I agree what was reaffirmed or crystallised has been stressed as applying at earlier times in some way. Revelation was a repeated occurrence (obviously there was more detail in that to Abraham, that hadn't come down to those escaping Egypt, or else was similar enough). The items in at least four books of the pentateuch will have been recited (with a few master written copies at that time for training reciters) from the time of Joshua. The "Ur of the Chaldees" which Abraham's family came from was either south of Babylon, or if further north, within its cultural sphere. They and everybody else walked, alongside pack animals. Tribute was often extorted from Sodom, near Abraham's region (Gen 14). Each people, even nearby ones, recorded their unique experiences distinctly. The exile caused the expansion of mass literacy among Hebrews as they no longer had a central worship place so had to form synagogues. Some OT books show signs of compilation at later dates but I think not the substance of those four.

 

[Leaf473]

(responding to post #100 over here.)

Those are great scriptures, Acts 15:28 and Leviticus 17:11. Which passage would you like to talk about first?

 

[Gary K]

(responding to post #100 over here.)

Those are great scriptures, Acts 15:28 and Leviticus 17:11. Which passage would you like to talk about first?

The NT because you claim the OT doesn't apply to you.

 

[Leaf473]

The NT because you claim the OT doesn't apply to you.

Okay... Is it your belief that if a person eats meat from a standard grocery store in the USA that they are not abstaining from blood? Is that the issue?

 

[Gary K]

Okay... Is it your belief that if a person eats meat from a standard grocery store in the USA that they are not abstaining from blood? Is that the issue?

That's exactly right. Ever bought hamburger and it had blood in the styrofoam tray that functions as the bottom of the package?