Debate- 4 day work week in America

[Dave Darling]

Hey, something I discovered- apparently there is a bill in the legislature in several states in the USA to transition the standard work week in the state from 5 days/week to 4 day/week, everyone would have 3 days off per week! They are considering rolling this out in California and Pennsylvania! Apparently they are already doing this in France and Sweden and it does work, their society still functions, it does not self-destruct! I thought we could get some debate going. My question is this, what do you think this will do to our society? Good idea or bad idea? I am of the opinion that our economy and GDP may take a hit from this but it may be worth it, if we do this we may have people snapping out of being depressed and suicidal and also people walking out of the mental hospital after making a miraculous recovery! What do you think?

 

[Say it aint so]

I worked 4 ten hour days for years and loved it.

 

[Fantine]

Usually the number of hours remain the same but are compressed into four days.

When I was first married, commuting from Queens to Manhattan on the subway each day, I would have killed for a four day work week. I'd walk a mile to the subway (in heels), stand on the subway 45 minutes (in heels), and climb several flights of stairs and walk several blocks to work (in heels.)
Sometimes I'd be so exhausted I'd walk to Radio City Music Hall and take the express bus, which offered me a seat and A/C guaranteed, but it was a longer trip becasue of traffic.
I am sure the time and cost of commuting in places like California influences a 4 day work week decision.
If you and a spouse had different days off, you could cut day care costs by 40%. Wow.

It has been common around here for hospital staffers to work 3 days, 12 hours for quite awhile.

I think it's a great idea, especially in areas where commuting is a huge, time-consuming burden.

 

[jacorian]

Hey, something I discovered- apparently there is a bill in the legislature in several states in the USA to transition the standard work week in the state from 5 days/week to 4 day/week, everyone would have 3 days off per week! They are considering rolling this out in California and Pennsylvania! Apparently they are already doing this in France and Sweden and it does work, their society still functions, it does not self-destruct! I thought we could get some debate going. My question is this, what do you think this will do to our society? Good idea or bad idea? I am of the opinion that our economy and GDP may take a hit from this but it may be worth it, if we do this we may have people snapping out of being depressed and suicidal and also people walking out of the mental hospital after making a miraculous recovery! What do you think?

I think it would take some stress off Americans but there will be some that think it's an outrage. I'd probably go for the idea of work 1 day at home for those businesses that can. This would alleviate traffic congestion & weaken some pollution. The 4 day thing might be a hard sell in Congress so maybe it could be applied every other week. So 5 days on, 4 days on.

 

[Pommer]

I think it would take some stress off Americans but there will be some that think it's an outrage. I'd probably go for the idea of work 1 day at home for those businesses that can. This would alleviate traffic congestion & weaken some pollution. The 4 day thing might be a hard sell in Congress so maybe it could be applied every other week. So 5 days on, 4 days on.

Congressional weeks are up to 4 days/week.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I worked textiles for over 20 years. We had various work weeks. There was the 5 day 3 shift week.
Then they wanted to work 7 days so they added 2, 12 hour shifts on the weekends for a total of 5 shifts.
Then they had 4 shifts. 2 shifts working 3 days and 2 shifts working 4 days. Switching back and forth.

I loved the 5th shift on the weekends. Work 24 and get paid 36.
I would start at noon - midnight Sat, and then noon to midnight Sun and that was my week.
We homeschooled our kids so that was perfect. I taught during the week, and she managed the little ones over the weekend.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Horrible idea. What if you need something immediately on a Friday and can't get it because all the stores selling it are closed? Also, it is less money paid to the employees who work on hourly salaries. And believe it or not, there are people who want to work five days a week.

A better option is doing what Canada does: reducing the term "full time" to be 35 working hours instead of 40 hours, What people need is more time off later in the day, especially if they have kids in K-12 schools. Also, pregnant women get tired in the day so I think they would welcome 7-hour work days.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I do think Americans work too many hours a week. 36 hours should be the max unless you want to work overtime. Alas the economy is set up where we have to work as many hours as possible to get ahead. We could about break even on 40 hours, but if we wanted anything extra then it was overtime for me.

 

[SimplyMe]

Horrible idea. What if you need something immediately on a Friday and can't get it because all the stores selling it are closed? Also, it is less money paid to the employees who work on hourly salaries. And believe it or not, there are people who want to work five days a week.

A better option is doing what Canada does: reducing the term "full time" to be 35 working hours instead of 40 hours, What people need is more time off later in the day, especially if they have kids in K-12 schools. Also, pregnant women get tired in the day so I think they would welcome 7-hour work days.

Why would a store be closed on Friday? Being on a 5-day work week, stores still manage to be open on weekends (typically stores stagger days off, with most days off some combination of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday). Having a 4 day work week would not change that.

Nor does it hurt hourly workers, as they still are given a base of a 40-hour work week -- just with an extra day off. And I'm sure that some employers, that work with a minimum of staff and depend on customers working overtime to pick up the slack, will be more than happy to have a worker come in to work overtime on their day off.

Oddly, studies have found that people are more productive working 10 hour days, 4 days a week, rather than 8 hours over 5 days. Yes, they have to cover childcare for 2 extra hours a day, but they lose an entire day of childcare in exchange -- additionally losing a full day of commute time (which might be an hour or more per day for a young family)

As for pregnant women, that is a different discussion -- though it does highlight how the US has some of the worst benefits for pregnancy and child birth (and the weeks/month after child birth) of developed (first world, and even second world) nations.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Why would a store be closed on Friday? Being on a 5-day work week, stores still manage to be open on weekends (typically stores stagger days off, with most days off some combination of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday). Having a 4 day work week would not change that.

The day of the week makes no difference if you are a customer and need something right away. You can suddenly run out of something anytime. But I can see where you are going with this.

Nor does it hurt hourly workers, as they still are given a base of a 40-hour work week - just with an extra day off. And I'm sure that some employers that work with a minimum of staff and depend on customers working overtime to pick up the slack will be more than happy to have a worker come in to work overtime on their day off.

Nobody is going to be paid for a 40-hour work week without working 40 hours.

You are assuming every employer hires people who want to work overtime. Even if they do have such people, it would hurt the company's bottom line because of the "time and a half" overtime pay requirement for anyone who works five 10-hour days. Many people in the retail industries ironically will lose their jobs for being the most devoted workers if they do that.

Oddly, studies have found that people are more productive working 10 hour days, 4 days a week, rather than 8 hours over 5 days. Yes, they have to cover childcare for 2 extra hours a day, but they lose an entire day of childcare in exchange - additionally losing a full day of commute time (which might be an hour or more per day for a young family)

Staggering days off still does not solve the problem of parents working 10-hour days. I think most people would tell you their current 8-hour days is too much. If we are going to keep the full-time schedule at 40 hours, 8x5 is the only way that makes sense.

As for pregnant women, that is a different discussion - though it does highlight how the US has some of the worst benefits for pregnancy and child birth (and the weeks/month after child birth) of developed (first world, and even second world) nations.

That is correct. In socialist countries, new moms get a lot more paid maternity leave than American women do. I read a sad article in The Guardian about a woman having an abortion because she was ineligible for any paid leave and her husband did not have a living wage job, so she had to keep hers. Stories like that make me think the real solution for working moms is work-at-home jobs.

My older sister is a full-time oncologist, but oner day a week she works at home to take care of her three kids.

 

[friend of]

I would also be happy with a 7 hour workday

 

[Occams Barber]

Hey, something I discovered- apparently there is a bill in the legislature in several states in the USA to transition the standard work week in the state from 5 days/week to 4 day/week, everyone would have 3 days off per week! They are considering rolling this out in California and Pennsylvania! Apparently they are already doing this in France and Sweden and it does work, their society still functions, it does not self-destruct! I thought we could get some debate going. My question is this, what do you think this will do to our society? Good idea or bad idea? I am of the opinion that our economy and GDP may take a hit from this but it may be worth it, if we do this we may have people snapping out of being depressed and suicidal and also people walking out of the mental hospital after making a miraculous recovery! What do you think?

After reading through 10 posts it is apparent that there is a misunderstanding about what "a four-day week" actually means.

It's not doing the same number of weekly working hours in 4 days.

A four-day week means reducing your working hours by 20%, working these hours over 4 days and (drumroll) getting the same pay. So, if you currently work a 40-hour week your hours would reduce to 32 hours, and you would get the same pay. Over time cuts in after 32 hours. By the way we (Australia) cut the work week to 38hours back in 1983.

The 20% reduction is what California is proposing. My guess is that the Pennsylvania, Sweden and France examples mentioned in the OP are the same or similar.

It's happening (slowly) in a few countries including Australia.

OB

10 Australian companies have embraced the 4-day week. Here's what they say about it

New research from Swinburne University suggests the four-day work week really can be win-win for workers and bosses.

theconversation.com

Guide to The 4-Day Workweek California Bill (& 2023 Update)

Curious about the 4-day workweek California bill? Our career experts explain this bill and how it could redefine work for employers and employees.

resumegenius.com

4 Day Week Global

Join us as we change the future of work! The 4 Day Week is a reduced-hour working model, which seeks to prioritise working smarter to produce better productivity in less time.

www.4dayweek.com

 

[RocksInMyHead]

The 20% reduction is what California is proposing. My guess is that the Pennsylvania, Sweden and France examples mentioned in the OP are the same or similar.

Pretty much. The Pennsylvania proposal is a voluntary pilot program that would give businesses a tax incentive to shift to a 4-day work week (32 hours/week with no reduction in pay or benefits) for 3 years. Assuming that they get enough participation (and that it passes in the first place), that seems like the best way to do this for now, since there just isn't a lot of data available and the impacts on various industries will be different.

 

[Kale100]

8 hour days are the worst. It's not your whole day, so there's the hope to want to be done and go do something, but it's usually not enough time to do anything significant. A 12+ hour day means that your whole day is work, you let it sink in and make peace with it. A 6 hour or shorter day means your day doesn't revolve around work, it's like an intermission. I like a mix, 1-2 long days and 4-5 short days.

 

[RDKirk]

Hey, something I discovered- apparently there is a bill in the legislature in several states in the USA to transition the standard work week in the state from 5 days/week to 4 day/week, everyone would have 3 days off per week! They are considering rolling this out in California and Pennsylvania! Apparently they are already doing this in France and Sweden and it does work, their society still functions, it does not self-destruct! I thought we could get some debate going. My question is this, what do you think this will do to our society? Good idea or bad idea? I am of the opinion that our economy and GDP may take a hit from this but it may be worth it, if we do this we may have people snapping out of being depressed and suicidal and also people walking out of the mental hospital after making a miraculous recovery! What do you think?

Are you certain they're proposing a 40-hour week and not a 32-hour week?

Because otherwise, it's not something that needs legislation. There are jobs now that offer employees 40 hours in four 10-hour days. My favorite such week was Monday-Tuesday-Thursday-Friday. Work two days, off a day, work two days, off two days. I loved it.

But that doesn't require legislation. Forcing employers to a 32-hour work week, though, would require legislation.

Unless the intent is to force employers to give all workers at least 32 hours a week, which would please a lot of part-time workers.

 

[Fantine]

Technology has made some jobs obsolete, and the end isn't in sight. At some point the unemployment rate could grow so high that the only way to prevent riots and keep the workforce gainfully employed will be to reduce the FT work week, perhaps by job sharing.

When I was in my early twenties commuting to NYC I would have gladly taken a pay cut to work a 4 day 10 hour work week. I walked a mile to the subway in heels, stood on the subway for up to 45 minutes in heel, climbed up all those stairs in heels, walked another four blocks or so in heels and did the same thing on the way home. It was the 1970's, and if I saw one of the old black trains lumbering into the station, knowing I'd face another summer ride without A/C, my heart would sink.

One day I wound up at the podiatrist's with searing, shooting pains up my right foot. We were so foolish in the 1970's. No one wore sneakers and left heels in their desk drawers.

Orthotics were the cure, but when the pain ended I was back to my heels routine. My commuting days were a bad memory.

No wonder why people who worked from home during the pandemic resist going back to one hour plus commutes on overcrowded subways.

 

[mark46]

Technology has made some jobs obsolete, and the end isn't in sight. At some point the unemployment rate could grow so high that the only way to prevent riots and keep the workforce gainfully employed will be to reduce the FT work week, perhaps by job sharing.

When I was in my early twenties commuting to NYC I would have gladly taken a pay cut to work a 4 day 10 hour work week. I walked a mile to the subway in heels, stood on the subway for up to 45 minutes in heel, climbed up all those stairs in heels, walked another four blocks or so in heels and did the same thing on the way home. It was the 1970's, and if I saw one of the old black trains lumbering into the station, knowing I'd face another summer ride without A/C, my heart would sink.

One day I wound up at the podiatrist's with searing, shooting pains up my right foot. We were so foolish in the 1970's. No one wore sneakers and left heels in their desk drawers.

Orthotics were the cure, but when the pain ended I was back to my heels routine. My commuting days were a bad memory.

No wonder why people who worked from home during the pandemic resist going back to one hour plus commutes on overcrowded subways.

You do know that unemployment rates are the lowest in decades, and participation rates are also among the lowest in history. Currently, there are TWO jobs open for every ONE worker who is looking for work. Even this extremely low unemployment rate is misleading, since many are unemployed because of mental issues or cannot pass drug tests.

Now, in 2023, we need MORE workers, just as do most of the industrial West, all of whom who have aging populations. We need more tech workers. We need more farm workers, more construction workers, and more hospitality workers. We need more electricians, more plumbers and more truck drivers.

BOTTOM LINE
Yes, the future will indeed be shorter work weeks. However, this is NOT a current need. The current need is more workers, amd pre qualified workers.

Just BTW, lots of companies would love to have more workers with fewer hours, so that they can pay lower benefits. Many employees are purposely limited to below 32 hours for that reason.

FINALLY, many insist on working from home. Many companies resist. If the market forces more companies to allow this, there is a very, very easy solution. If particular jobs can be done efficiently, then these workers can just as easily be located in Poland, Estonia, India or the Phillipines. If forced, companies will develop models for off-site workers. This will NOT benefit the US workforce.

 

[RDKirk]

Technology has made some jobs obsolete, and the end isn't in sight. At some point the unemployment rate could grow so high that the only way to prevent riots and keep the workforce gainfully employed will be to reduce the FT work week, perhaps by job sharing.

When I was in my early twenties commuting to NYC I would have gladly taken a pay cut to work a 4 day 10 hour work week. I walked a mile to the subway in heels, stood on the subway for up to 45 minutes in heel, climbed up all those stairs in heels, walked another four blocks or so in heels and did the same thing on the way home. It was the 1970's, and if I saw one of the old black trains lumbering into the station, knowing I'd face another summer ride without A/C, my heart would sink.

One day I wound up at the podiatrist's with searing, shooting pains up my right foot. We were so foolish in the 1970's. No one wore sneakers and left heels in their desk drawers.

Orthotics were the cure, but when the pain ended I was back to my heels routine. My commuting days were a bad memory.

No wonder why people who worked from home during the pandemic resist going back to one hour plus commutes on overcrowded subways.

Why couldn't you wear sneakers for the commute and switch to heels on the job? I've been seeing women doing that since the 80s.

 

[RDKirk]

You do know that unemployment rates are the lowest in decades, and participation rates are also among the lowest in history. Currently, there are TWO jobs open for every ONE worker who is looking for work. Even this extremely low unemployment rate is misleading, since many are unemployed because of mental issues or cannot pass drug tests.

[/QUOTE]

And many of those who are employed are "underemployed" and not making enough to make ends meet with any savings.

Now, in 2023, we need MORE workers, just as do most of the industrial West, all of whom who have aging populations. We need more tech workers. We need more farm workers, more construction workers, and more hospitality workers. We need more electricians, more plumbers and more truck drivers.

BOTTOM LINE
Yes, the future will indeed be shorter work weeks. However, this is NOT a current need. The current need is more workers, amd pre qualified workers.

Just BTW, lots of companies would love to have more workers with fewer hours, so that they can pay lower benefits. Many employees are purposely limited to below 32 hours for that reason.

That is true, which is why this push to limit the work week to 32 hours is cynically pro-business, not pro-worker. That's why there is a push to reduce hours for individuals despite a need for more hours worked.

FINALLY, many insist on working from home. Many companies resist. If the market forces more companies to allow this, there is a very, very easy solution. If particular jobs can be done efficiently, then these workers can just as easily be located in Poland, Estonia, India or the Phillipines. If forced, companies will develop models for off-site workers. This will NOT benefit the US workforce.

Yes, this is also true, and I've seen it happening from the inside. "Working from home" can be anywhere on the globe.

Interestingly, a growing number of Gen Zers have figured this out and actually want to go to the office. Their apartments and their parents basements are unpleasant and uncomfortable for work anyway...they actually want to get out of their hovels and into pleasant work spaces with people around (I think these are the same Gen Zers who are saying "Go outside...touch grass"). They are also realizing "out of sight, out of mind," and they need to be kept in mind when layoffs happen.

 

[Brihaha]

Being in my 50s now, I don't think I would even like working four days a week lol. I have a really nice gig three days a week and it is plenty. I don't know how my body handled all those years of 12 hour shifts and swinging from days to nites every couple weeks. After my four days off every week, I look forward to going back to work for a few days. And my body, though undeniably worn out, is able to withstand another week of work.

Reflecting on the past, it seems asinine how I was literally killing myself to earn a living. There's a line in the movie Good, Bad and the Ugly where a character asks "If you work for a living, why do you kill yourself working?" I thought it was just a cheesy bit of dialog to segue into the next scene. It wasn't until I aged a bit before I truly understood the profound truth of the question. What kind of living can killing oneself be? Ungratifying.