The Episcopal Church: Supporting Abortion Since 1967

[seeking.IAM]

You say dogmatic like it's a bad thing.

Then I shall apologize because I do not mean to imply dogmatic is a bad thing. I think it is a reality that some church hierarchies are more specific about beliefs to be adhered to than are others. Our own two faith associations being an example of that. Our participation is a choice. I do not criticize yours. In fact, I have great respect and honor for Orthodoxy, and offer no criticism.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Then I shall apologize because I do not mean to imply dogmatic is a bad thing. I think it is a reality some that some church hierarchies are more specific about beliefs to be adhered to than are others. Our own two faith associations being an example of that. Our participation is a choice. I do not criticize yours. In fact, I have great respect and honor for Orthodoxy, and offer no criticism.

Feel free to criticize my Church. I would expect nothing less from someone who belongs to an institution so radically different in beliefs/values from my own. The idea of allowing for a wide diversity of thought in doctrine (to the point of denying essential Christian proofs) is not an Idea I have much respect for.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Feel free to criticize my Church

No thank you.

 

[The Liturgist]

Here is a web page that links to a number of the General Convention resolutions over the years that relate to abortion: The Episcopal Church’s Views on Abortion

Going by the statements in these resolutions, the church views abortion as a morally complicated matter. For example, here is an excerpt from the 1994 resolution:



I would not call this a pro-abortion view, but rather an acknowledgement of the moral complexity of the issue.

It is my moral conviction, firm belief, but also, based on evidence and logic as applied to scripture and natural law, my considered opinion, that abortion is not morally complex, rather, it is one of the most obvious clear cut examples of wicked selfishness in the world, and I am presently reviewing all the mainline denominations to see if any participated in the collective heroic virtue of the pro-life movement like the Roman Catholics, Southern Baptists and various Evangelical and traditional denominations, like the LCMS, the Continuing Anglicans and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, a movement which led to the reversal of Roe vs. Wade.

Now, I recognize that this view may seem extreme to some, but I am willing to rationally defend it insofar as this is not a mere sentiment but the result of logical analysis, similar to my view of the destructive nature of divorce (which is why I am actually more troubled by denominations hiring divorced people as clergy than active homosexuals, although I am opposed to both, and both were prohibited by the canon law of the early church, along with the ordination of men who castrated themselves or had someone castrate them for reasons other than medical necessity, which was regarded as self-murder, as well as anyone who had ever killed anyone).

 

[The Liturgist]

I suspect it is difficult for one from a dogmatic tradition to understand the variance found in a non-dogmatic tradition. I think the important thing to remember about The Episcopal Church is that we are more about common worship than common thought.

The Episcopal Church used to be a dogmatic denomination. It was when it started moving in the direction of non-dogmatism when the heresy trial against Bishop James Pike failed to secure a conviction that things began to go sideways and the church started to lose members and alienate people.

When the 1928 Book of Common Prayer was released, there was tension between the Anglo Catholic majority and the Low Church minority, but on the whole, the Episcopal Church stood for something. And it could still stand for something now if it adhered to the values of the 1979 BCP.

And there are Episcopal Priests and Bishops, and one remaining conservative seminary, Nashotah House, who despite the best efforts of the other Bishops to drive them out, are present in certain dioceses, although since the attempt by the Episcopal Church to retain the property of the departing Diocese of Fort Worth was ruled illegal by the Supreme Court, which was around the same time as the Roe vs. Wade ruling, some of these Dioceses may be emboldened to depart.

 

[kiwimac]

Abortion is not morally complex, rather, it is one of the most obvious clear cut examples of wicked selfishness in the world, and I am presently reviewing all the mainline denominations to see if any participated in the collective heroic virtue of the pro-life movement like the Roman Catholics, Southern Baptists and various Evangelical and traditional denominations, like the LCMS, the Continuing Anglicans and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, a movement which led to the reversal of Roe vs. Wade.

Twaddle.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Twaddle.

What's twaddle?

 

[The Liturgist]

@kiwimac I would be happy to respond to any questions or counterarguments or to further explain my conviction as to what I and other pro-life Christians regard as the obvious evil of abortion.

 

[concretecamper]

I recently published an article about the United Church of Christ supporting abortion, and now I feel its time to call attention to the fact that, unknown to myself when I was a member, the Episcopal Church has officially supported abortion since before Roe vs. Wade, even though many Episcopalians are pro-life. This should surprise no one, and frankly that I didn’t realize it shows how naive I was, considering the abuse of traditionalists within the denomination, the recent display of a crucifix depicting our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ as a woman, and the church failing to discipline liberal parishes like St. Gregory of Nyssa for incorporating a Shinto shrine into their funeral service.

It is also interesting to note this occurred around the same time that the heresy trial against Bishop James Pike of San Francisco, who among other things argued against teaching the doctrine of the Trinity, saying “we need fewer beliefs and more belief,” to which the Episcopal Church should have responded “The Unitarian Universalist Association Welcomes You,” failed to convict and depose the bishop despite his flagrant disregard of the doctrines set forth in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer.

I suggest conservative Episcopalians use caution and avoid donating money directly to the Episcopal Church, where it could be used to finance pro-abortion lobbying and activism. Frankly I wish I could get my money back that I donated.

In this thread on some other pro abortion denominations I outlined possible alternative means of donating to the denominations in question: The United Church of Christ Supports Abortion!

Remember, it was the Anglicans (1930, Lambeth Conference) that first broke from Tradition and approved Contraception. Supporting Abortion is a natural consequence. So sad.

 

[Jipsah]

If a woman in good conscience decides to abort her child because she doesn't want to be burdened by it, what's tragic about it?

Yeah, just off the little nipper. Children are just too burdensome. Same with old folks. "Old and in the way" as the song says. Probably don't wanna tear them limb from limb like we do the unborn, that would upset the squeamish. Just a soft bed and the monoxide mask will do the trick, and you won't have to worry what to do with grandma any more. It's better for everybody that way, innit?

There's a song written on this very subject, by one Willian S. Gilbert, of "Gilbert and Sullivan" fame. It's called "They'll None of 'Em Be Missed":

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list - I've got a little list
Of social offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed - who never would be missed!
There's the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs -
All people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs -
All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat -
All persons who in shaking hands, shake hands with you like THAT -
And all third persons who on spoiling TETE-E-TETES insist -
They'd none of 'em be missed - they'd none of 'em be missed!

There's the n***** serenader, and the others of his race,
And the piano organist - I've got him on the list!
And the people who eat peppermint and puff it in your face,
They never would be missed - they never would be missed!
Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone,
All centuries but this, and every country but his own;
And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy,
And who "doesn't think she waltzes, but would rather like to try";
And that FIN-DE-SIECLE anomaly, the scorching motorist -
I don't think he'd be missed - I'm SURE he'd not be missed!

And that NISI PRIUS nuisance, who just now is rather rife,
The Judicial humorist - I've got HIM on the list!
All funny fellows, comic men, and clowns of private life -
They'd none of 'em be missed - they'd none of 'em be missed!
And apologetic statesmen of the compromising kind,
Such as - What-d'ye-call-him - Thing'em-Bob, and likewise - Never-
mind,
And 'St - 'st - 'st - and What's-his-name, and also - You-know-who-
(The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to YOU!)
But it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list,
For they'd none of 'em be missed - they'd none of 'em be missed!

 

[The Liturgist]

Yeah, just off the little nipper. Children are just too burdensome. Same with old folks. "Old and in the way" as the song says. Probably don't wanna tear them limb from limb like we do the unborn, that would upset the squeamish. Just a soft bed and the monoxide mask will do the trick, and you won't have to worry what to do with grandma any more. It's better for everybody that way, innit?

There's a song written on this very subject, by one Willian S. Gilbert, of "Gilbert and Sullivan" fame. It's called "They'll None of 'Em Be Missed":

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list - I've got a little list
Of social offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed - who never would be missed!
There's the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs -
All people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs -
All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat -
All persons who in shaking hands, shake hands with you like THAT -
And all third persons who on spoiling TETE-E-TETES insist -
They'd none of 'em be missed - they'd none of 'em be missed!

There's the n***** serenader, and the others of his race,
And the piano organist - I've got him on the list!
And the people who eat peppermint and puff it in your face,
They never would be missed - they never would be missed!
Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone,
All centuries but this, and every country but his own;
And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy,
And who "doesn't think she waltzes, but would rather like to try";
And that FIN-DE-SIECLE anomaly, the scorching motorist -
I don't think he'd be missed - I'm SURE he'd not be missed!

And that NISI PRIUS nuisance, who just now is rather rife,
The Judicial humorist - I've got HIM on the list!
All funny fellows, comic men, and clowns of private life -
They'd none of 'em be missed - they'd none of 'em be missed!
And apologetic statesmen of the compromising kind,
Such as - What-d'ye-call-him - Thing'em-Bob, and likewise - Never-
mind,
And 'St - 'st - 'st - and What's-his-name, and also - You-know-who-
(The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to YOU!)
But it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list,
For they'd none of 'em be missed - they'd none of 'em be missed!

I did see The Mikado in London in 2002 performed by the revived D’Oyle Carte Company, at the Savoy Theatre, shortly before they went out of business. Since that time I don’t believe there has been any Gilbert and Sullivan at the Savoy Theatre; when I stayed at the Savoy Hotel for a week of pure luxury in 2011 the Savoy Theatre was showing Legally Blonde: The Musical.

 

[The Liturgist]

What does the Episcopalian Church do to actively discourage abortion of convenience in it's members?

Indeed, this is a critical point. Now to be sure, there are individual parishes within the Episcopal Church, and even dioceses, which are still adhering to scriptural doctrine. So individual Episcopalian parishes are still helping to discourage abortion.

Still others are essentially preaching an orthodox doctrine in a broad church, inoffensive way, which seeks to avoid the divisive issue, which I understand, but feel is not quite doing enough. Old North Church in Boston exemplified this with the delicate manner in which the rector or vicar or whoever the regular assigned priest for that congregation handled it. However he really did not have much of a choice, I expect.

However as my retired traditional Episcopalian friend explained, the problem is largely with the seminaries, in that there are really only one, maybe two or three left, which are solidly traditional, Nashotah House coming to mind as one of them.

So the problem is not that all Episcopal parishes or dioceses are pro-abortion, which is certainly not the case, but rather, that a large number of its seminaries are at a minimum, “pro-choice”, which is a doctrinal position most Christians and indeed I think most Anglicans regard as contradicted by scripture, tradition and reason, and making matters worse, the Episcopal Church as an Anglican province has been supporting abortion since 1967, which is something only a small minority of Anglican provinces are doing. This event also coincided with the first signs of a decline of membership.

 

[The Liturgist]

Indeed, some Episcopalians don't even believe in Christianity, like Spong. I think the diversity of thought is a problem for the Episcopalian Church and broader Anglican communion in general.

I only reference that subreddit as an example of what the average active layman in the Episcopal Church says and believes. There are apparently also many priests on that subreddit giving similar advice. I've had official statements quoted but it's hard for me to believe the average Episcopalian, even the average Episcopalian prelate has any real problem with abortion of convenience. Especially when they are insistent on protecting the right to procure one on that basis.

That said, this diversity of thought does permit the continued activity of traditionalists, at least for now. There are denominations which are more “progressive” and less tolerant of, for example, pro life views or scriptural views on human sexuality than the Episcopal Church.

Now the exciting development in North America, much more so than the Diocese of Fort Worth recently being allowed by the US Supreme Court to keep its property despite joining ACNA, is the development of the Continuing Anglican churches which started forming largely due to the controversies in the late 1970s, which have organized themselves into low church and Anglo Catholic churches, and some of these Anglo Catholic churches are doctrinally equivalent to the Western Rite Vicarates of the Antiochian Orthodox Church and ROCOR, enumerating seven sacraments and seven ecumenical councils and in some cases rejecting the filioque. I think EO-Anglican dialogue with these Continuing Anglican churches should occur, because they stand a chance of working, in contrast to the dialogue between the Episcopal Church and the Eastern Orthodox bishops St. Tikhon of Moscow and his St. Rafael Hawaheeny of Brooklyn, who later founded what became the Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America, who found their work with high church Episcopalians undermined by low church Episcopalians.

Something similiar happened in Parliament in the UK in 1928 in which the majority of Anglican MPs voted in favor of adopting the beautiful Deposited Book, but were voted down by a minority of low churchmen who were aided by MPs who were not Anglican.

 

[The Liturgist]

Do you mean hoping that lots and lots of abortions happen? No, that's not an appropriate position for an Episcopalian.

Indeed, I don’t think anyone in the Episcopal Church favors that.

However, there was a sinister element among early advocates of abortion that was connected to the Eugenics movement which does add to the discomfort of Pro-Life Christians who are aware of it.

By the way, I want to make it clear, this thread while specific to the Episcopal Church is directly related to another thread I posted about the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ and the United Church of Canada, all three of which are doing basically the same thing as the Episcopal Church, sometimes on a larger scale.

I somewhat regret having not ”bundled” the Episcopal Church with another denomination, because I think other mainline churches are likely engaged in this activity. The reason why I did not is that I had not come across such a report yet, but I would not be surprised at all to find more pro abortion activism from the leadership of the mainline churches, whereas since I follow news concerning the Episcopal Church closely I became aware of this fact soon after posting my thread concerning the UMC, UCC and United Church of Canada, which is also now extremely pro-assisted suicide, which is obviously contrary to scripture.

The other reason is that as you know, I particularly love the Episcopal Church and desire it to reform itself above all other denominations. This does not mean a hyper politicized church that specifically engages in partisan campaigning opposite what the Episcopal Church at the denominational level engages in, but rather just the opposite: a de-politicized Episcopal Church which preaches the Gospel and all of Scripture, even those parts which have become unpopular with secular society, in a manner consistent with the beliefs of the Early Church, especially at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople and Ephesus, with which most Anglicans agree, which a large number of Episcopal parishes currently do, actually, and do a very good job at.

My fear is the progressive trajectory of the Episcopal Church, especially with the new BCP being worked on, and the dwindling number of traditional seminaries, and also the extent to which a combination of certain liberal bishops and the existence of ACNA is causing an expedited departure of traditionalists, particularly Evangelical episcopalians, which is different from the relationship between the Episcopal Church and the Continuing Anglican churches, which often have a surprisingly cordial relationship, for example, in Las Vegas, the relationship between St. George Anglican Church, part of the Anglican Province of Christ the King, and the Episcopalian community in the city.

The ultimate reason however, for posting this thread, as well as the threads I posted about the UMC, the United Church of Christ, etc, is as stated in the OP, and that is to advise the large number of traditionalists who remain in these denominations because they were baptized there, and don’t want to switch, that they should donate to the church in a careful manner so as to make sure their donation goes to benefit specific church charities or their individual parish and is not used for activities which are in opposition to the pro-life movement.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I question seminaries' degree of influence. To what degree can an institution of learning "educate out" a conservative or traditional stance from an individual? I'd rather think it begins earlier than that during the discernment level of candidates for the priesthood. That is the first opportunity to screen out candidates not conforming to particular theology or convention. Once the gate is opened, the die is cast...to mix a metaphor. I have degrees from a state university and from a Catholic university. I can't say the bent of either changed me very much from what I brought into them in the first place.

 

[The Liturgist]

I question seminaries' degree of influence. To what degree can an institution of learning "educate out" a conservative or traditional stance from an individual? I'd rather think it begins earlier than that during the discernment level of candidates for the priesthood. That is the first opportunity to screen out candidates not conforming to particular theology or convention. Once the gate is opened, the die is cast...to mix a metaphor. I have degrees from a state university and from a Catholic university. I can't say the bent of either changed me very much from what I brought into them in the first place.

It is not so much a case of “educating out.” Seminaries have immense power over seminarians; while this depends on the seminary, typically the rector can wash out students at any time. The seminary is also responsible for everything that goes into formation, and a left leaning seminary can have different ideas about what constitutes formation than a right leaning one.

It should also be noted that the element of formation is extremely critical in terms of the work seminaries do, in that it really can “educate out” particular positions. People who go into the ministry are often very caring, and the Episcopal Church to its credit does something I think churches should do, which is screen postulants for narcissism and certain other behavioral disorders which could make them a danger to the laity. I myself was screened when I went through seminary, but my understanding from my retired friend Fr. Steve is the Episcopal Church has particularly vigorous testing, which is good.

But what this means practically is that people going in there are going in there for the right ethical reasons, with a willingness and a trust to go through priestly formation, and it really is the case that seminaries can influence the belief system of seminarians, particularly in cases where we are talking about, for instance, human sexuality, where the traditional Biblical doctrine is very much against the grain of secular culture, and indeed there has been, for instance, in the case of homosexuality, instances where some churches have horribly and disproportionately treated persons engaged in that activity while in some cases turning a blind eye to adultery occurring even among clergy, which is of course wrong, and this fact in isolation can be used to maneuver students, along with the all too familiar hermeneutic of the Levitical Code being specific to Judaism and St. Paul either talking about something else, or otherwise being out of date, et cetera. We must not forget that in addition to the existence of denominations like the Metropolitan Community Church, which is a liturgical church that primarily caters to that community, there are numerous publications. And that is just one issue. Seminaries are in a position to advance other things such as Critical Race Theory, etc.

And even if you graduate that does not mean you get appointed even as a curate, since in addition to the seminary education, in denominations where it is required, having a good relationship with a bishop is still critical. However, in the Episcopal Church the seminaries can greatly influence your chances of getting an assignment. And often this involves an extended period of service as a deacon due to the declining number of active congregations, so there is not a shortage of vocations like in the Roman Catholic Church.

The most important means by which a progressive seminary can screen out traditionalists however is upfront. Postulants have to be approved. If a postulant makes it known they are a traditionalist regarding human sexuality or are pro-life, there are a great many seminaries in the mainline churches that won’t accept that student. Nashotah House has only a limited capacity. So there is a very finite supply of traditionalist and pro-life clergy and a narrow pipeline to supply them, especially since my understanding is that some graduates of Nashotah House go on to serve in ACNA rather than the Episcopal Church. So the remaining conservative dioceses in the Episcopal Church are in a kind of catch-22.

But that being said, there are some excellent Episcopalian parishes doctrinally, in fact, a great many, and my main point in this thread is that pro-life Episcopalians simply need to make sure their donations are going to charities the Episcopal Church supports or to the direct upkeep of their parish or their parish priest, or otherwise exercise due dilligence to ensure they are not going to this. For example, during my year in the Episcopal Church, if I had known about this issue, I would have donated differently. I still would have donated, but differently.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Nashotah House has only a limited capacity. So there is a very finite supply of traditionalist and pro-life clergy and a narrow pipeline to supply them

My Nashotah House rector was open and affirming. I don't know how Nashotah House let that heretic slip through the cracks.

 

[The Liturgist]

My Nashotah House rector was open and affirming. I don't know how Nashotah House let that heretic slip through the cracks.

Well because obviously there is no respect in which your beliefs could be regarded as doctrinally unsound on the principles of dogmatic theology. I mean, you and I have a difference of opinion on moral theology and the trajectory of the Episcopal Church, but I have always regarded you as a friend and it has always been clear to me that we are brethren in Christ, and I value your relationship. I would imagine it is the same at Nashotah House.

Now, I should state that I don’t know the specifics of individual Episcopalian seminaries; I am only repeating what my retired friend and other traditionalist colleagues in the Episcopalian community had to say about the situation, in addition to my knowledge in general of how seminaries operate.

By the way I thought you were a layman; I did not realize you were a cleric in the Episcopal Church!

 

[seeking.IAM]

I mean, you and I have a difference of opinion on moral theology

I believe our opinions of moral theology may not be as great as is our respective tolerance levels for those that think differently than we do.

and the trajectory of the Episcopal Church,

I have yet to attend any faith body where I agreed with everything and I doubt I ever shall. That includes The Episcopal Church. Nonetheless, within this body I obviously have decided what I value about the worship experience outweighs any places where I differ. I have strong belief that the church should be open to all. And, I do like that about us.

By the way I thought you were a layman; I did not realize you were a cleric in the Episcopal Church!

You were correct initially. I am but a humble pew warmer and frequent Senior Warden of the Vestry. I am a psychotherapist. I watched the burdens on my dad, a Methodist preacher. I long ago decided being clergy was just too crazy of a job, even for me.

 

[The Liturgist]

Nonetheless, within this body I obviously have decided what I value about the worship experience outweighs any places where I differ. I have strong belief that the church should be open to all. And, I do like that about us.

I think we are actually of the same opinion here.

The only difference is that I believe that the national Episcopal Church, and all churches, should not take positions against pro-life movements, but that the principles concerning the dignity of human life put forward by Pope John Paul II I think make sense for Christians even who are not Roman Catholic. And likewise, I cannot countenance changing doctrine or qualifications for marriage regarding human sexuality contra scripture, but I did put Westboro Baptist Church on my list of the most problematic parish churches for a reason.

Actually, this beautiful service at Park Street Church contains a homily which outlines my exact position on sexual morality, including my regret that churches have harmed or driven out gay people, while in some cases concealing adultery on the part of clergy.