Who Here Believes Born Again Christians...

[BNR32FAN]

I don’t believe that. I don’t believe you can lose salvation. Sad to see so much works based theology.

What is your interpretation of John 15:1-10?

 

[Gregory95]

What are your thoughts on John 15:1-10?

Isn't the passage saying

The born again are grafted into the vine

The faithful do the works God gives them

God prunes them to produce more fruit

Those who do not produce fruit would they not be those who profess faith yet their faith is dead because they don't do works thus this is evident they were never truly saved?

 

[Kenyon Ledford]

Because I think it is an overused word and one that has a meaning beyond our current condition. Meaning, if you say, "I am saved" I am fine with that... but the truth is, we are still awaiting our salvation, our deliverance. I know this because, though we DO belong to God NOW... we are still aging, getting disease, we still die, we are still tempted, we are still exposed to all manner of sin... and one day that won't be anymore. So when we see messiah say, "He who endures until the end will be saved," we get an idea that the word "saved" has a greater meaning than we generally use and I tend to lean toward us "not being there yet." Again, we belong to God now... but until we are removed from this sin hole world we live in.... are we really saved? I don't think so... and that's why messiah says, "He who endures until then end..."

Blessings.
Ken

Then you don't believe God when he says you are saved if you believe?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Isn't the passage saying

The born again are grafted into the vine

The faithful do the works God gives them

God prunes them to produce more fruit

Those who do not produce fruit would they not be those who profess faith yet their faith is dead because they don't do works thus this is evident they were never truly saved?

Yes in a sense but closer examination reveals that Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and failing to abide in Him. This takes place right after the Last Supper. Judas has already left the group to go betray Jesus and only Jesus and His faithful 11 apostles are walking with Him to the olive grove in Gethsemane. Notice verse 2 The Father cuts off or removes branches who are “in Christ” if they don’t bear fruit. Jesus tells His apostles to remain or abide in Him and says anyone who does not abide will be thrown away to wither then thrown into the fire to burn. The Greek word translated to thrown or cast means to throw or cast away without regard or care to one’s wellbeing often in a violent or intense manner. Jesus then proceeds to pray to The Father for the 11 faithful apostles saying they do not belong to this world. According to John 6:64 Jesus already knew they believed. So if eternal security is true then Jesus would be warning His apostles of doing something they would be incapable of doing. That doesn’t seem likely.

 

[Ken Rank]

Then you don't believe God when he says you are saved if you believe?

Yes... but I don't ignore the many verses that also say you WILL BE saved. We're saved in the sense that we belong to Him and thus the verses that indicate we are saved. Yet, we also WE WILL saved hence the verses that indicate this. And, I gave you clear images... we belong to Him and are sons of God when we submit our hearts and walk in faith AND if we endure till the end we will be saved.

Both concepts exist, I am not pitting one against the other. I am simply trying to find a way to reconcile the notion that both concepts exist in Scripture without having to ignore one.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes... but I don't ignore the many verses that also say you WILL BE saved. We're saved in the sense that we belong to Him and thus the verses that indicate we are saved. Yet, we also WE WILL saved hence the verses that indicate this. And, I gave you clear images... we belong to Him and are sons of God when we submit our hearts and walk in faith AND if we endure till the end we will be saved.

Both concepts exist, I am not pitting one against the other. I am simply trying to find a way to reconcile the notion that both concepts exist in Scripture without having to ignore one.

If you believe that salvation can be revoked then it makes perfect sense and doesn’t contradict each other.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then you don't believe God when he says you are saved if you believe?

Notice the definition of the Greek word translated to believe. The authors of the New Testament wrote in Greek so to fully understand the message they are trying to convey we need to understand the Greek definitions of the words. Please allow me to provide a few key words that are often misunderstood due to inaccurate translations from the Greek to English language.

believe

G4100


G4100


Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

faith

G4102


G4102


Lemma:

πίστις


Transliteration:

pístis


Pronounce:

pis'-tis


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

believer

G4103


G4103


Lemma:

πιστός


Transliteration:

pistós


Pronounce:

pis-tos'


Part of Speech:

Adjective


Language:

greek


Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

These definitions reflect the understanding and teachings of the church since the very beginning of Christianity.

 

[Dale]

In the 19th century Americans started moving west and three institutions went with them. There was vaudeville, traveling entertainment. There was lyceum, traveling education and culture. And there was the itinerant preacher, offering a new style of preaching called "hell fire and brim stone". It was very entertaining, only loosely based on scripture, and pastors didn't even try to compete. Instead they switched to preaching public morality and philosophy. Eventually an entire generation grew up not knowing the first thing about the religion they claimed to believe. That is why most Christian churches don't teach doctrines, and most members don't know what they are supposed to believe.

2 Timothy 4:
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Most Methodist ministers in the 19th century were itinerant in the sense that they followed a route, giving two or three church services a day. Historically, the Methodists and the Baptists were the largest religious groups in the US. I don't know how you go from there to saying that most churches don't have doctrines.

 

[Ken Rank]

If you believe that salvation can be revoked then it makes perfect sense and doesn’t contradict each other.

Did I say that? I love when people assume and then publicly make statements like this. I merely pointed out that the bible says we are saved when we come in faith and that we will be saved upon the coming of messiah. If you don't have an answer for that, just remain quiet. Don't come up with off the wall ideas and attach them to others who don't believe that just so you don't have to deal with the Scripture.

Have a great day.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did I say that? I love when people assume and then publicly make statements like this. I merely pointed out that the bible says we are saved when we come in faith and that we will be saved upon the coming of messiah. If you don't have an answer for that, just remain quiet. Don't come up with off the wall ideas and attach them to others who don't believe that just so you don't have to deal with the Scripture.

Have a great day.

No you misunderstood me brother Ken I was not implying that you believe that salvation can be revoked I was saying that IF you believe that salvation can be revoked then the scriptures don’t contradict each other. In answer to your question what is the Greek definition of the word faith? (Hint) I just posted it along with the definitions of the Greek words for believe and believer in post #147.

 

[Kenyon Ledford]

I don't know why we're debating this. Someone earlier in this thread said they didn't
need to accept Christ in their heart or follow Jesus. They became a Christian by getting
baptized as an infant. Lock Thread.

 

[Gregory95]

True because we do have free will to my understanding

It seems this breaks down into 2 sides

Side A once you are saved you are always saved ( anyone who believes this verses please)

Side B you have freewill thus it is YOUR decision to accept Christs offer and follow Him also if you leave Him you loose salvation ( it seems to me this is true please show verses )

Yes in a sense but closer examination reveals that Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and failing to abide in Him. This takes place right after the Last Supper. Judas has already left the group to go betray Jesus and only Jesus and His faithful 11 apostles are walking with Him to the olive grove in Gethsemane. Notice verse 2 The Father cuts off or removes branches who are “in Christ” if they don’t bear fruit. Jesus tells His apostles to remain or abide in Him and says anyone who does not abide will be thrown away to wither then thrown into the fire to burn. The Greek word translated to thrown or cast means to throw or cast away without regard or care to one’s wellbeing often in a violent or intense manner. Jesus then proceeds to pray to The Father for the 11 faithful apostles saying they do not belong to this world. According to John 6:64 Jesus already knew they believed. So if eternal security is true then Jesus would be warning His apostles of doing sin they would be incapable of doing. That doesn’t seem likely.

 

[Kaon]

are going to hell by not following certain verses in the bible? I have seen more than twice here, people say that eternal damnation is someone's lot if...

And that is despite that person being born again.

Once you accept Christ into your heart and life, you are saved. God does not take that back. All of Romans practically is God backing up that promise.

I'm gobsmacked by the Christians here who think if you don't follow the entire Bible to the letter God will revoke that promise and send you to hell.

Who here believes that?

There are a lot of people who believe they are born again, but are not.

The same number will be surprised when they are rejected at the Resurrection, as they believe they are living for the Word of God Himself. It is a matter of carnal consequence that the lot of us are confused about salvation, and spiritual (re)birth.

Once you are saved, you are saved. However, the definition of saved is foreign to a lot of people who believe they are saved.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

I don't know why we're debating this. Someone earlier in this thread said they didn't
need to accept Christ in their heart or follow Jesus. They became a Christian by getting
baptized as an infant. Lock Thread.

That almost sounds like something I said - but not quite. I absolutely do believe that Christians are called to follow Jesus. God has good deeds in store for Christians to do.

 

[Oldmantook]

are going to hell by not following certain verses in the bible? I have seen more than twice here, people say that eternal damnation is someone's lot if...

And that is despite that person being born again.

Once you accept Christ into your heart and life, you are saved. God does not take that back. All of Romans practically is God backing up that promise.

I'm gobsmacked by the Christians here who think if you don't follow the entire Bible to the letter God will revoke that promise and send you to hell.

Who here believes that?

That depends if you are referring to legalism which is the opposite of licentiousness. Both extremes will send you to the lake of fire. However, the Bible does require obedience to God as a life-style in order to have eternal life. Read Hebrews 5:9 which states that obedience (in addition to belief) is required for eternal life. Since you referred to Romans, read Romans 8:13 that warns if believers practice sin in their lives, they will die (spiritual death). Do not be deceived, habitual sin in the life of the believer results in spiritual death and separation from God. The ongoing practice of sin is the evidence that such a person has not genuinely repented and therefore is not forgiven. That does not apply to occasional sins that we repent of, since no one is without sin (1 John 1:8,10).

 

[Oldmantook]

There are a lot of people who believe they are born again, but are not.

The same number will be surprised when they are rejected at the Resurrection, as they believe they are living for the Word of God Himself. It is a matter of carnal consequence that the lot of us are confused about salvation, and spiritual (re)birth.

Once you are saved, you are saved. However, the definition of saved is foreign to a lot of people who believe they are saved.

One can be genuinely saved but yet still fall away. The NT is replete with warnings against apostasy which can only apply to a regenerate believer. It is impossible for the unsaved to depart/apostatize from the faith since they were never part of the faith to begin with. Only believers can depart from the faith they were once a part of. Therefore once saved, not necessarily always saved.

 

[Kenyon Ledford]

There are a lot of people who believe they are born again, but are not.

The same number will be surprised when they are rejected at the Resurrection, as they believe they are living for the Word of God Himself. It is a matter of carnal consequence that the lot of us are confused about salvation, and spiritual (re)birth.

Once you are saved, you are saved. However, the definition of saved is foreign to a lot of people who believe they are saved.

So true.

 

[Kenyon Ledford]

Do you mean me? I was baptized as an infant.

 

[Kenyon Ledford]

That almost sounds like something I said - but not quite. I absolutely do believe that Christians are called to follow Jesus. God has good deeds in store for Christians to do.

Me: How did you become saved?
You: Me? I was baptized as an infant.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Me: How did you become saved?
You: Me? I was baptized as an infant.

Your point?