Reconciliation

[Fizzywig]

A Christian verse on "reconciliation" can be found at Colossians 1:20

It speaks of the reconciliation of "all things".

A Buddhist take on this ( Mahayana Buddhism ) would be of the two truths, i.e. the absolute and the relative ( or "conventional" ) being "not two", or that "samsara" ( this world of birth and death ) being the same as "nirvana". Thus this world is not betrayed for some imagined "other". But is such a reconciliation possible?

Given your own Faith, what does the "reconciliation of all things" mean? What would be your hope?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Colossians 1:19-20: "For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things, whether on Earth or in Heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Well in Christianity, this clearly speaks of the Trinity, the fullness of God's own existence in Jesus on the Cross. This speaks of the mystery of the Incarnation, of death and Atonement. How everything is dependant upon God, of Jesus as the Logos.
But mostly it speaks of the very fact of all existence being brought unto God, of repair. Of course though, to reconcile something there must be something which separated us from God initially, our Sin.

I don't think any explanation can be more succinct or complete than the verses themselves, hence I quoted them in full.

 

[Job8]

Given your own Faith, what does the "reconciliation of all things" mean? What would be your hope?

Reconciliation implies an existing enmity. Sin, which is present in every human being, not only separates from God, but also creates enmity between Darkness and Light. When Christ died on the Cross He was not only paying the penalty for the sins of the whole world, but was also making it possible for God to be reconciled to sinners, and by extension, to "all things" (the universe) which were also tainted with sin and the effects of sin. Scripture says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

The important thing to note is that while God is now reconciled to all through the blood of Christ and the total sacrifice of Christ, sinners must be reconciled to God through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption. Those who reject Christ, reject God, reject the Gospel, and reject God's written Word will not be reconciled, but the wrath of God will abide on them (John 3:36).

 

[Arthra]

There was a prayer revealed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá that speaks very much to the issue of reconciliation:


"O Lord! Draw up the people from the abyss of the ocean of hatred and enmity, and deliver them from the impenetrable darkness. Unite their hearts, and brighten their eyes with the light of peace and reconciliation. Deliver them from the depths of war and bloodshed, and free them from the darkness of error. Remove the veil from their eyes, and enlighten their hearts with the light of guidance. Treat them with Thy tender mercy and compassion, and deal not with them according to Thy justice and wrath which cause the limbs of the mighty to quake."

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BP/bp-153.html

 

[Fizzywig]

Reconciliation implies an existing enmity. Sin, which is present in every human being, not only separates from God, but also creates enmity between Darkness and Light. When Christ died on the Cross He was not only paying the penalty for the sins of the whole world, but was also making it possible for God to be reconciled to sinners, and by extension, to "all things" (the universe) which were also tainted with sin and the effects of sin. Scripture says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

The important thing to note is that while God is now reconciled to all through the blood of Christ and the total sacrifice of Christ, sinners must be reconciled to God through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption. Those who reject Christ, reject God, reject the Gospel, and reject God's written Word will not be reconciled, but the wrath of God will abide on them (John 3:36).

As I see it one component of reconciliation is to recognise that the "wrath" of God (or gods) is a product of the infant mind of the human race, as is the thought of Gods who need to incarnate and sacrifice themselves for the "sins" of the world.

Mythology is worth study and has much to teach regarding the human situation, but to see such things as historical fact within time/space history is to my own mind misguided and in fact invites the very things it is claimed to heal.

 

[Noxot]

if we were with Christ on the cross then there would be no more wrath. reconciliation of all things means the free return of everything which is something greater than having been only made good (which is an accidental quality) which as we see in this world is something that often did not last.

so I see it as hell being wiped out in favor of heaven but no one can be forced into it which is why it exist in the first place (because some will hell to be)

I do not believe like many do that evil is required for good to be. this reality does not need evil in order for it to be, in fact if it had no evil it would be a lot better off. what reality does require is freedom and evil can come about because of freedom. I believe that good is required for evil to be but that is only because evil is something less than perfect and so is contained by what is superior.

 

[Job8]

Mythology is worth study and has much to teach regarding the human situation, but to see such things as historical fact within time/space history is to my own mind misguided and in fact invites the very things it is claimed to heal.

It would appear that your mind is misguided about this critical matters. Please read and study the Bible if you want the truth.

 

[Noxot]

most Christians fail to account for the spiritual world being a real thing and so don't consider that they might be under the influence of evil spirits. most human beings are unaware of such and so they have a kind of disadvantage when it comes to attempting to rightly divide the Word.

regardless the devil walks about as a lion seeking whom he might drink up.

there is a real war going on and there are many different beings that desire to hurt or help a person. so we should make absolutely certain that we understand Gods nature and our own least we be found to worship a lamb that speaks with the voice of a dragon. I know that from time to time they can blind me as well.

the outer garment of a thing is nothing compared to the one who is either wearing it among his fellow countrymen or having it ripped off by savage psychos.

 

[Fizzywig]

It would appear that your mind is misguided about this critical matters. Please read and study the Bible if you want the truth.

Ah ha! Appearances can be deceptive, especially on Internet Discussion Forums where the possibility of a reconciling tankard of ale is not on offer. I agree with you that these matters are critical and I thus wonder why the "truth" of them is more often than not determined for so many by the chance matter of where they are born and into what culture, and their very first indoctrinations by "those who know". I have read and studied the Bible, in some depth, for very many years and perhaps could have been labelled a liberal Christian. Yet along with the Bible I also looked deeply at the Buddhist texts, and many others.

You stated earlier......Those who reject Christ, reject God, reject the Gospel, and reject God's written Word will not be reconciled, but the wrath of God will abide on them.

This you identify as "truth". Fine, your choice. I hope you have given all this the equal critical examination as I have sought to do. Eventually, when still seeing myself as some sort of liberal Christian, and because of my own study of the Bible, I identified Christ with the Eternal Word ( Logos ) through Whom all things are made, and knew God as God was known throughout the whole world of Faith, witnessed to by many who had/have never heard of Jesus. Their lives and words testified to the fact that indeed they DID know God in the spirit, and that God was for them that in which they lived and moved and had their being. I came to see that there was a vast difference between the written word and the Living Word, and thus, like many Christians, saw no need to tie salvation to knowledge of, or acceptance of, Jesus. I came to see that the "wrath" of God was no more than to live without the knowledge of the Love of God, a love as given by pure grace, pure gift, and came to see that such was eventually to be realised by ALL, and therefore that Universalism was the only viable belief.

Now I have found that all I came to see in the Christian Faith is far more clearly expounded in Pure Land Buddhism, which does not tie itself down to a whole list of what to me are totally unbelievable dogmas and doctrines and historical events that stretch credulity to the limits and beyond.

 

[Hieronymus]

As I see it one component of reconciliation is to recognise that the "wrath" of God (or gods) is a product of the infant mind of the human race, as is the thought of Gods who need to incarnate and sacrifice themselves for the "sins" of the world.

That's hardly plausible.

Mythology is worth study and has much to teach regarding the human situation, but to see such things as historical fact within time/space history is to my own mind misguided and in fact invites the very things it is claimed to heal.

Why?
It is recorded history afterall.

 

[Fizzywig]

That's hardly plausible.Why?
It is recorded history afterall.

Given the various mythologies of various cultures, which include many God's, many incarnations, even dying and rising saviours, it is all too plausible. To continue to think in terms of God's "wrath" given more insightful understandings, only contributes to the whole problem of "reconciliation".

And though certain events recorded in the Bible do have some verification from sources other than the Bible itself, many of even the main events are questioned by reputable scholars. And virtually none at all have the supporting evidence that can be found for, say, the crossing of the Rubicon by Julius Caesar.

 

[Hieronymus]

Given the various mythologies of various cultures, which include many God's, many incarnations, even dying and rising saviours,

That Zeitgeist gobbledegook has ben debunked over and over for years now, it is just not true.

it is all too plausible.

Nah, not really. Not at all actually.

To continue to think in terms of God's "wrath" given more insightful understandings, only contributes to the whole problem of "reconciliation".

I think He would disagree with that.
Who's will will be done, you think?

And though certain events recorded in the Bible do have some verification from sources other than the Bible itself, many of even the main events are questioned by reputable scholars.

Reputable to whom?

And virtually none at all have the supporting evidence that can be found for, say, the crossing of the Rubicon by Julius Caesar.

Simply not so.
It seems it is you that is unwilling to reconcile with God.
This however is only natural (and i don't mean that in a condescending way !).
The human heart is rather opposed to God's Ways, but inclined to choose the wrong way.
This is so ever since the beginning, Genesis 3.

But it's not a matter of opinions and human emotional views.
It is about Truth versus untruth.
There is no reconciliation in untruth, only in truth, because it's true.

So humans wish to be like God, but without God.
Obviously impossible.

..but maybe this is not in line with this particular sub-forum... (sorry)

 

[Fizzywig]

That Zeitgeist gobbledegook has ben debunked over and over for years now, it is just not true.Nah, not really. Not at all actually. I think He would disagree with that.
Who's will will be done, you think? Reputable to whom?Simply not so.
It seems it is you that is unwilling to reconcile with God.
This however is only natural (and i don't mean that in a condescending way !).
The human heart is rather opposed to God's Ways, but inclined to choose the wrong way.
This is so ever since the beginning, Genesis 3.

But it's not a matter of opinions and human emotional views.
It is about Truth versus untruth.
There is no reconciliation in untruth, only in truth, because it's true.

So humans wish to be like God, but without God.
Obviously impossible.

..but maybe this is not in line with this particular sub-forum... (sorry)

Ah yes, all "debunked long ago" by various Scholars reputable to you!

And sorry, to just deny the lack of supporting evidence for so many Biblical events and to imply that they are supported by as much evidence as the event I cited...........your choice to dip your head in the sand.

No, I have no wish to be like YOUR God, given you appear to think that he DID actually throw hailstones down upon his own enemies (before telling us we must love them) Have the hailstones been preserved in some freezer somewhere as evidence?

And I do not consider myself to be "without God". I just consider that I do not share YOUR particular beliefs about God. Another thing entirely.

 

[Hieronymus]

Ah yes, all "debunked long ago" by various Scholars reputable to you!

No, by the cold hard facts.
Holding on to Zeitgeist / New Age / Theosophy nonsense is just silly. Sorry, they fooled you.

And sorry, to just deny the lack of supporting evidence for so many Biblical events and to imply that they are supported by as much evidence as the event I cited...........your choice to dip your head in the sand.

It is you that is unaware of the evidence, not me.

No, I have no wish to be YOUR God,

Your OWN God obviously....

Why have discussions on a Christian Forum if you can't stand it?

God bless.

 

[Robban]

No, by the cold hard facts.
Holding on to Zeitgeist / New Age / Theosophy nonsense is just silly. Sorry, they fooled you.It is you that is unaware of the evidence, not me.Your OWN God obviously....

Why have discussions on a Christian Forum if you can't stand it?

God bless.

It is not so easy to work out Christianity,

the verse Fizzywig quoted can be taken as,

It's finished, nothing to add, nothing to discuss, that's it.

A finished work, like building a house,

when the last nail has been hammered in, it is finished,

so what more is there to do?

I have been given the impression by some or many Christians that it is so.

Or so they view the matter.

But then I do not know, the whole set up seems mystical.

 

[Robban]

One for the road before trying to get some sleep,

I do not understand what evidence has to do with the matter,

That someone died on a cross was not so uncommon,

How can it be proven that is so as Christianity presents it.

We cannot even prove that God exists.

I do not think it is possible for us to choose God,

He chooses us, or as Fizzywig says so often,

the wind blows where it will.

I have never chosen God, I know of no other.

"I am the Lord your God who brought you up out .........." and so on,

leaves no choice,

it is more of a proclamation

 

[Fizzywig]

No, by the cold hard facts.
Holding on to Zeitgeist / New Age / Theosophy nonsense is just silly. Sorry, they fooled you.

Hi again Hieronymus, having thrown off the shackles of the grandchildren I am now able to devote more time to this debate.

You have the wrong person. I do not hold on to Zeitgeist/New Age/Theosophy (whether nonsense or not) I have never actually read a New Age book and the only Eckhart I am familiar with is not Eckhart Tolle but the 12th century Dominican Meister Eckhart. Theosophy? I think you allude to those such as Annie Besant and Madame Blavatsky? No, not me. Though I am quite taken by a few words from "The Voice of the Silence" written by Madame Blavatsky.....

Compassion speaks and says:- Can you feel joy yet see the whole world suffer - can you be saved yet hear the whole world cry?

The answer would seem to be a resounding "YES"!! from many, even to the point where sight of the writhings of the damned are offered as a treat - and considered one - to those enjoying the joys of heaven (this from St Thomas Aquinas)

So, no, not fooled. As far as the "cold hard facts" perhaps you could provide them? "Facts" are funny things, often becoming "harder" the more they agree with our very own Zeitgeist. I have dipped into the various writings of Joseph Campbell on comparative mythology and such has revealed that there is no more reason to take Jewish mythology any more seriously (as time/space history) than Sumerian or Babylonian, or any other culture.

It is you that is unaware of the evidence, not me

Please make me aware of such evidence. I repeat, given the evidence for such facts as the crossing of the Rubicon by Julius Caesar ( i.e. autobiographical works that have survived, corroborating Histories written by others in the ancient world) the evidence for, say, Noah's Ark? That would be a starter.

.Your OWN God obviously....

To a certain extent we all have our own God. Some equate their own with God Himself, which to me is wrong.

Why have discussions on a Christian Forum if you can't stand it?

Why do you say that I cannot stand it? Here I am, for good or ill.

God bless.

I certainly prefer a blessing to hailstones being thrown at me. Thank you.

 

[Fizzywig]

One for the road before trying to get some sleep,

I do not understand what evidence has to do with the matter,

That someone died on a cross was not so uncommon,

How can it be proven that is so as Christianity presents it.

We cannot even prove that God exists.

I do not think it is possible for us to choose God,

He chooses us, or as Fizzywig says so often,

the wind blows where it will.

I have never chosen God, I know of no other.

"I am the Lord your God who brought you up out .........." and so on,

leaves no choice,

it is more of a proclamation

Yes, we have all been chosen. That is the heart of Reconciliation. We are already one but do not know it, "What we have to be is what we are" (Merton)

 

[Fizzywig]

For me the Christian verse cited in the OP implies just that which Merton's words in my post above would mean.

The NT speaks also of "being chosen before the foundation of the world", of the "lamb being slain before the foundation of the world". Such words and their implications point to our reconciliation with God, with ourselves, and with each other, as being more a realisation of that which already IS rather than something to be attained NOW by our choices. It is gift, grace. To insist upon the efficacy of our own "choice" as the causal basis of our salvaton is thus, in effect, the way of "works".

 

[Fizzywig]

It is not so easy to work out Christianity,

the verse Fizzywig quoted can be taken as,

It's finished, nothing to add, nothing to discuss, that's it.

A finished work, like building a house,

when the last nail has been hammered in, it is finished,

so what more is there to do?

I have been given the impression by some or many Christians that it is so.

Or so they view the matter.

But then I do not know, the whole set up seems mystical.

Well, one has only to look over into the Christian Apologetics Forum to see how Christians themselves find it all so hard to work out. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic, how a succession of Christians each proclaims their very own take on the "clear word of God" to be definitive, each telling the other to read more carefully or look more deeply, each presuming themselves the "spiritual man" (or woman) rather than the "natural man." Good grief! as Charlie Brown would say.

My friend the Buddha says that the truth ( Dharma ) is "clearly visable, immediate, inviting, uplifting, to be personally sensed by the wise". Even now I can hear the cries of some........"not many wise are called". But words each have context and maybe understanding the context of each is part of being a true "spiritual man" (or woman if it must be so...........) So with the "wise"...............a little child can be wise.

So you should train yourself:- "In the seen, there will only be the seen, in the heard, only the heard, in the sensed, only the sensed, in that of which I am conscious, only that of which I am conscious." This is how you should train. (Udana, from the Theravada Scriptures)

And therefore as in zen, "when hungry eat, when tired sleep, when happy laugh, when sad cry". Nothing could be less mystical

And yet................"how far I have to go to find You in Whom I have already arrived!"