Finding Where I Stand

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Hello!

I'm trying to figure out where I stand on the creation debate between YEC and OEC.

I see both sides and I think they both make good points.

I believe the days of creation to be literal 24 hour periods as each day contains an ordinal number, which in ancient Hebrew, always mean a literal day. At least, that is the YEC argument, and I'm sure an Old Earther could find a way to counter that claim.

I'm not opposed to the idea of an old earth, and there certainly could be gaps in the geneaologies in Genesis, but I have read that the largest gap is in the NT by 300 years, Idk how accurate that claim is, but if that is the case, the other gaps can't be longer.

The extent of the flood is another thing I see both sides on and I don't think it really matters whether it was local or global as long as it teaches that all life not on the ark (except aquatic animals) were wiped out.

I depart from the traditional YEC views on my acceptance to the possibility of an ancient earth (like I stated previously), and I accept that there could have been death before the fall.

Idk if Adam and Eve could physically die, but humans are above animal and we are special to God. Jesus died to save all of mankind. So I don't see animal death as incompatible to the pre-Fall world. It seems that death here indicates a spiritual death.

Some things that keep me from labeling myself as OEC is the argument that God cannot deceive, therefore the world is millions or billions of years old. The only issue I have with this are the records of miracles in the Bible that science says shouldn't be able to happen, like Jesus feeding the 5,000, walking on walter, or being resurrected.

Also, if God cannot deceive, was Adam created as an infant? The text seems to imply that he was physically an adult when he was created when he was just a day old (created on the sixth day), it seems that he never got to experience childhood.

I don't mean to sound confrontational to either side, I am just trying to hear both sides on certain issues.

 

[Aman777]

Hello!

I'm trying to figure out where I stand on the creation debate between YEC and OEC.

I see both sides and I think they both make good points.

I believe the days of creation to be literal 24 hour periods as each day contains an ordinal number, which in ancient Hebrew, always mean a literal day. At least, that is the YEC argument, and I'm sure an Old Earther could find a way to counter that claim.

I'm not opposed to the idea of an old earth, and there certainly could be gaps in the geneaologies in Genesis, but I have read that the largest gap is in the NT by 300 years, Idk how accurate that claim is, but if that is the case, the other gaps can't be longer.

The extent of the flood is another thing I see both sides on and I don't think it really matters whether it was local or global as long as it teaches that all life not on the ark (except aquatic animals) were wiped out.

I depart from the traditional YEC views on my acceptance to the possibility of an ancient earth (like I stated previously), and I accept that there could have been death before the fall.

Idk if Adam and Eve could physically die, but humans are above animal and we are special to God. Jesus died to save all of mankind. So I don't see animal death as incompatible to the pre-Fall world. It seems that death here indicates a spiritual death.

Some things that keep me from labeling myself as OEC is the argument that God cannot deceive, therefore the world is millions or billions of years old. The only issue I have with this are the records of miracles in the Bible that science says shouldn't be able to happen, like Jesus feeding the 5,000, walking on walter, or being resurrected.

Also, if God cannot deceive, was Adam created as an infant? The text seems to imply that he was physically an adult when he was created when he was just a day old (created on the sixth day), it seems that he never got to experience childhood.

I don't mean to sound confrontational to either side, I am just trying to hear both sides on certain issues.

The Days (Heb-yowm-periods of time) could NOT be just 24 hours since the Hebrew word "yowm" is used in the Bible to show 12 or 24 hours, a lifetime or Eternity. One example is the current 6th Day which began when the Lord made the beasts of the field and birds and Adam named them. Gen 2:19

The present 6th Day will NOT end until AFTER Jesus returns and changes Lions and ALL other living creatures into vegetarians. Gen 1:30 AND Isa 11:7 YEC are in error since they teach that the 1st Day was 6,000 years ago. As you can see, God tells us the 1st Day was less than 6 Days ago. Amen?

 

[SkyWriting]

Some things that keep me from labeling myself as OEC is the argument that God cannot deceive, therefore the world is millions or billions of years old. The only issue I have with this are the records of miracles in the Bible that science says shouldn't be able to happen, like Jesus feeding the 5,000, walking on walter, or being resurrected.

The problem stems from modern science deluding
the public into having faith that science can know
past events. Once they have secured personal
funding (a salary) then they spend resources to
prop up the delusion.

This idea that scientists always provide unbiased
analysis is what keeps them in a job. Once you
drop the idea that scientists are unbiased, then
there is room to understand that God wants us
to limit science to what is knowable today.

What anybody says about the past today, has
absolutely no effect on what really happened.
Quite often, the two are not even similar.

 

[tdidymas]

Hello!

I'm trying to figure out where I stand on the creation debate between YEC and OEC.

I see both sides and I think they both make good points.

I believe the days of creation to be literal 24 hour periods as each day contains an ordinal number, which in ancient Hebrew, always mean a literal day. At least, that is the YEC argument, and I'm sure an Old Earther could find a way to counter that claim.

I believe the term "day" (yom) means literal 24 hour period. As such, the Gen. 1 account must be figurative by nature. What we know as day and night is made by the sun as the earth turns on its axis. Therefore, how could there be a day and night in that same sense days before the sun was created? There are major problems trying to interpret Gen. 1 in a literalistic sense. See text below.

I'm not opposed to the idea of an old earth, and there certainly could be gaps in the geneaologies in Genesis, but I have read that the largest gap is in the NT by 300 years, Idk how accurate that claim is, but if that is the case, the other gaps can't be longer.

I personally don't see gaps in the genealogies. I think they invent gaps because some scriptures appear hard to reconcile.

The extent of the flood is another thing I see both sides on and I don't think it really matters whether it was local or global as long as it teaches that all life not on the ark (except aquatic animals) were wiped out.

I depart from the traditional YEC views on my acceptance to the possibility of an ancient earth (like I stated previously), and I accept that there could have been death before the fall.

Idk if Adam and Eve could physically die, but humans are above animal and we are special to God. Jesus died to save all of mankind. So I don't see animal death as incompatible to the pre-Fall world. It seems that death here indicates a spiritual death.

Agree, the death that they died in Eden was spiritual death. Also, the fact that they could naturally die is implied in the fact that they were isolated from the tree of life for that purpose. The death that Paul mentions in Rom. 5 is spiritual death, although he uses the idea of physical death also as a play on words, teaching spiritual truth by physical example (like an analogy).

Some things that keep me from labeling myself as OEC is the argument that God cannot deceive, therefore the world is millions or billions of years old. The only issue I have with this are the records of miracles in the Bible that science says shouldn't be able to happen, like Jesus feeding the 5,000, walking on walter, or being resurrected.

The idea that God does not deceive isn't about miracles or not, it's about why we see evidences of old ages in cosmology and geology. See my text below on astronomy and ice cores.

Also, if God cannot deceive, was Adam created as an infant? The text seems to imply that he was physically an adult when he was created when he was just a day old (created on the sixth day), it seems that he never got to experience childhood.

I believe Adam was created as an adult, and correct, that he never experienced childhood. What came first, the baby or the man/woman? I say the man/woman. Just like the chicken was created before the egg.

I don't mean to sound confrontational to either side, I am just trying to hear both sides on certain issues.

My take on it:
There is always a problem with trying to interpret Gen. 1 as a historical, chronological, and/or scientific account. Whoever does so inevitably conflicts with either Biblical text or known facts about the universe. The fact that the universe has existed for over 13B years is shown by photos of mature galaxies measured over 13B light years distant. Also, if the universe was started only 6k years ago, then how could we see a supernova that happened 167k light years distant, or how could we count up to 800k years of annual layers in Greenland ice cores?

There are 2 other plausible explanations about Gen. 1: (1) that it is parabolic in nature, which is intended to use a similar form to creation accounts of other nations, but pointing out that the God of Israel is the one who did it, or (2) that Gen 1 account of creation is from the perspective of ancient cosmology, in which they believed that the Sun, Moon, and Stars were fixed in position in a roof/dome over the sky (called the "firmament"), and the firmament moved around the earth (which was essentially flat, of course, with the sea around it). So then, Gen 1 would not be a scientific text, but a religious document pointing to Jehova as creator of all things.

I know that most people, especially YEC'ers, gripe that these 2 plausible interpretations diminish the truth of God's word, but I say only in their minds. I say that to try to interpret all the Bible in a strict literalist fashion, then we would have to believe that God actually has jars in heaven that He tips over when He wants it to rain, or worse, that Jesus meant for us to literally gouge out our eyes or cut off our hands at any offense. But do we see many one-eyed Christians walking around?

About the worst mistake people make in Bible interpretation is to make too many assumptions about the text they are reading. And an even worse mistake than that is to assume that those assumptions are absolute truth. This is how we get so many denominations and cults, because people are too proud (or fearful) to say "I could be wrong."
TD

 

[Aman777]

I believe the term "day" (yom) means literal 24 hour period. As such, the Gen. 1 account must be figurative by nature. What we know as day and night is made by the sun as the earth turns on its axis. Therefore, how could there be a day and night in that same sense days before the sun was created? There are major problems trying to interpret Gen. 1 in a literalistic sense. See text below.

Not so, since we live today at the end of the present 6th Day. The Light of the first Day is Jesus. When God speaks of a Day, He is speaking of the end (evening and beginning) of a period of time. God's Holy Word is Literally Truth IF you have the proper interpretation. The 7th Day, because it has NO evening, is Eternity. Amen?

 

[tdidymas]

Not so, since we live today at the end of the present 6th Day. The Light of the first Day is Jesus. When God speaks of a Day, He is speaking of the end (evening and beginning) of a period of time. God's Holy Word is Literally Truth IF you have the proper interpretation. The 7th Day, because it has NO evening, is Eternity. Amen?

What you say here sounds somewhat like SDA teaching, it is highly allegorical. But if I "spiritualized" the days to say what day we are in now, then I would say WE ARE IN THE 7TH DAY!! The Bible says God blessed the 7th day because He rested on it. "In 6 days God created the heavens and the earth," and since God has rested since the creation (Heb 4:4 - For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”). Since God is now at rest from creation, we are now in the 7th day. I am simply using your logic to interpret the scripture.
TD

 

[Aman777]

What you say here sounds somewhat like SDA teaching, it is highly allegorical. But if I "spiritualized" the days to say what day we are in now, then I would say WE ARE IN THE 7TH DAY!! The Bible says God blessed the 7th day because He rested on it. "In 6 days God created the heavens and the earth," and since God has rested since the creation (Heb 4:4 - For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”). Since God is now at rest from creation, we are now in the 7th day. I am simply using your logic to interpret the scripture.
TD

Notice the prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 which is NOT yet complete and will NOT be complete until AFTER Jesus returns to this Earth. Humankind has NEVER had dominion or rule over mosquitoes, angels, nor Lions in the PAST. This prophecy is fulfilled in Isaiah 11 and verse 7 explains WHEN Lions become vegetarians as shown in Gen 1:30, a FUTURE event.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear SHALL feed; their young ones SHALL lie down together: and the LION SHALL eat straw like the ox.

 

[tdidymas]

Prophecy??? You are saying that Gen 1:28-31 is a prophecy of future events? If so, then what a gross misunderstanding, since that passage is an account of past events. Adam and Eve are commanded to fill the earth (not a prophecy), and God declared that plants shall be our food (which it is, so no prophecy there). The beasts were also to eat plants, which they do, so no prophecy there. "Subdue it" is a command, not a prophecy. According to your logic, "do not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden" is also a prophecy that didn't come true, at least for Adam. Isa. 11 is a prophecy of a future event, but it has no bearing on what day we are in. In truth, we are in the 2.2Mth day (24 hr periods since the creation). But to meet your allegorical method, we are in the 7th day, not the 6th, as I showed that scripture clearly teaches that the 6th day of creation was completed, and God is at rest from His creative work. What you have done is take 2 unrelated scriptures out of their context and try to put them together as if putting together some kind of jigsaw puzzle. But that is a bad method of hermeneutics, which does not bring you to the truth. The best method is to let scripture interpret scripture, while putting preconceived ideas aside. Heb. 4:4 clearly states that the 7th day arrived.
TD

 

[lesliedellow]

The problem stems from modern science deluding
the public into having faith that science can know
past events. Once they have secured personal
funding (a salary) then they spend resources to
prop up the delusion.

The thing creationists never get around to explaining, for some strange reason, is why scientists who are Christians, such as John Barrow, George Coyne, Martin Nowak, William Phillips Charles H Townes, Francisco Ayala, John Polkinghorne, Ken Miller, Simon Conway Morris, Sam Berry, Dennis Alexander, Antony Hewish, et al, should all be involved in a grand conspiracy to prop up that so called delusion.

 

[SkyWriting]

The thing creationists never get around to explaining, for some strange reason, is why scientists who are Christians, such as John Barrow, George Coyne, Martin Nowak, William Phillips Charles H Townes, Francisco Ayala, John Polkinghorne, Ken Miller, Simon Conway Morris, Sam Berry, Dennis Alexander, Antony Hewish, et al, should all be involved in a grand conspiracy to prop up that so called delusion.

You mean that they work and get paid?
Ya, few people even internally say they
work just for money. They usually find
satisfaction in their lives somewhere
and they use that for why they work.

There is no conspiracy. People get paid
to work and do only what the boss asks.

 

[lesliedellow]

You mean that they work and get paid?
Ya, few people even internally say they
work just for money. They usually find
satisfaction in their lives somewhere
and they use that for why they work.

If somebody proved evolution false, they would become instantly world famous, perhaps on a par with Einstein, win a Nobel Prize and collect a very fat cheque.

As one evolutionary biologist remarked, proving evolution wrong is the stuff every biologist's dreams are made of.

 

[SkyWriting]

If somebody proved evolution false, they would become instantly world famous, perhaps on a par with Einstein, win a Nobel Prize and collect a very fat cheque. As one evolutionary biologist remarked, proving evolution wrong is the stuff every biologist's dreams are made of.

Yes, the process of science is eliminating possibilities to narrow
down what is left. We all know that. That's the only thing science
does is remove possibilities to see what is left.

 

[lesliedellow]

Yes, the process of science is eliminating possibilities to narrow
down what is left. We all know that. That's the only thing science
does is remove possibilities to see what is left.

Yes, well 6 day creation was removed long ago, and there is no chance of its return, because too many people would have to be too wrong about too many things.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, well 6 day creation was removed long ago, and there is no chance of its return, because too many people would have to be too wrong about too many things.

Like the people who think Jesus rose from the grave?
I'm sure there is very little support from the medical
community. No, I take that back. Most physicians
believe in a higher power and say they've seen miracles.

 

[lesliedellow]

Like the people who think Jesus rose from the grave?
I'm sure there is very little support from the medical
community. No, I take that back. Most physicians
believe in a higher power and say they've seen miracles.

Unlike the age of the Earth, or biological Evolution, whether or not miracles are possible is not something which the physical sciences can address themselves to.

I do not usually cross examine my physicians about their religious beliefs, but I have known a couple who volunteered the information that they were Christians.

 

[Aman777]

Prophecy??? You are saying that Gen 1:28-31 is a prophecy of future events? If so, then what a gross misunderstanding, since that passage is an account of past events.

Not so. That is the failed Theology of ancient men who lived thousands of years BEFORE Science. What is confusing to most people is they understand the past tense of English, but NOT the imperfect tense of Hebrew, which shows that the events are NOT yet complete. Today, God continues to create Adam (mankind) in His Image or in Christ Spiritually.

*** Adam and Eve are commanded to fill the earth (not a prophecy), and God declared that plants shall be our food (which it is, so no prophecy there). The beasts were also to eat plants, which they do, so no prophecy there.

Really? Then please explain Gen 1:30 which says that EVERY living creature, including Lions, becomes a vegetarian, which has NEVER happened in the past.

*** "Subdue it" is a command, not a prophecy. According to your logic, "do not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden" is also a prophecy that didn't come true, at least for Adam. Isa. 11 is a prophecy of a future event, but it has no bearing on what day we are in. In truth, we are in the 2.2Mth day (24 hr periods since the creation). But to meet your allegorical method, we are in the 7th day, not the 6th, as I showed that scripture clearly teaches that the 6th day of creation was completed, and God is at rest from His creative work.

Really, then please explain WHY Jesus told the religious leaders of His time on Earth, who accused Him or working on the Sabbath, this:

Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Since it takes the AGREEMENT of the Trinity to "create" a New Creature in Christ Spiritually, Gen 1:26 and John 14:16 God's creation will continue until it is made perfect.

*** What you have done is take 2 unrelated scriptures out of their context and try to put them together as if putting together some kind of jigsaw puzzle. But that is a bad method of hermeneutics, which does not bring you to the truth. The best method is to let scripture interpret scripture, while putting preconceived ideas aside. Heb. 4:4 clearly states that the 7th day arrived.
TD

I am simply following what the Lord told us to do:

Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little,and there a little:

Amen?

 

[tdidymas]

Not so. That is the failed Theology of ancient men who lived thousands of years BEFORE Science. What is confusing to most people is they understand the past tense of English, but NOT the imperfect tense of Hebrew, which shows that the events are NOT yet complete. Today, God continues to create Adam (mankind) in His Image or in Christ Spiritually.

You are confusing physical creation with spiritual, and this is the pretext you bring to your reading of scripture. I'll say it again, Heb. 4:4 states clearly "And God did rest the seventh day from all his works." Did rest is past tense, and did rest the seventh day means that the seventh day arrived in full. It also says from all his works, which means the entire creation from distant galaxies to the tiniest creature on earth. See below for the rest of the story.

*** Adam and Eve are commanded to fill the earth (not a prophecy), and God declared that plants shall be our food (which it is, so no prophecy there). The beasts were also to eat plants, which they do, so no prophecy there.

Really? Then please explain Gen 1:30 which says that EVERY living creature, including Lions, becomes a vegetarian, which has NEVER happened in the past.

Lions have fangs for tearing flesh, therefore God did not create them to eat vegetables. Isa. 11 speaks of some future new age in which the creation will be fundamentally different, which likely corresponds to Rev. new heaven and earth. It is possible that lions had herbivorous teeth before the fall. But beside all that, it would be wrong to formulate some doctrine on that verse by speculation which is contrary to what Hebrews clearly states (which I believe you have done).

*** "Subdue it" is a command, not a prophecy. According to your logic, "do not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden" is also a prophecy that didn't come true, at least for Adam. Isa. 11 is a prophecy of a future event, but it has no bearing on what day we are in. In truth, we are in the 2.2Mth day (24 hr periods since the creation). But to meet your allegorical method, we are in the 7th day, not the 6th, as I showed that scripture clearly teaches that the 6th day of creation was completed, and God is at rest from His creative work.

Really, then please explain WHY Jesus told the religious leaders of His time on Earth, who accused Him or working on the Sabbath, this:

Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Since it takes the AGREEMENT of the Trinity to "create" a New Creature in Christ Spiritually, Gen 1:26 and John 14:16 God's creation will continue until it is made perfect.

Yet Heb. 4 states clearly that God "rested from all His work." Hmm, I think you are confused about something in this case. The writer of Hebrews is declaring that God completed His work of creation in the physical creation, and this is typology concerning what the Sabbath signifies. Since God sustains all things by His power (Heb. 1:3), and is in control of all circumstances (Rom. 8:28), and by Him all things exist (1 Cor. 8:6), then it becomes obvious that God is always at work, because if God stops working then everything ceases to exist!! Therefore, since the writers of scripture are always in agreement and there cannot be any contradiction in what they wrote, there must be some fundamental difference between God's work in creation which He ceased, and the work He continues to do. In fact, the John 5:17 passage is speaking of a spiritual work, which is quite different than the work of creating the universe. When you take two unrelated verses which have fundamentally different usages of the term "work" and you try to make them say the same thing, then you err in your hermeneutical method. Also in fact, I have repeatedly quoted Heb. 4:4 saying that God's work of creation ceased, and you have ignored or avoided it. What hoops do you jump through to deny what this verse clearly says?

*** What you have done is take 2 unrelated scriptures out of their context and try to put them together as if putting together some kind of jigsaw puzzle. But that is a bad method of hermeneutics, which does not bring you to the truth. The best method is to let scripture interpret scripture, while putting preconceived ideas aside. Heb. 4:4 clearly states that the 7th day arrived.
TD

I am simply following what the Lord told us to do:

Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little,and there a little:

Amen?

I am simply following what the Lord told us to do:

Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little,and there a little:

Amen?

This Isaiah passage was quoted to Israelite leaders as a prophecy of judgment. Are you applying this to yourself?
TD

 

[Aman777]

You are confusing physical creation with spiritual, and this is the pretext you bring to your reading of scripture. I'll say it again, Heb. 4:4 states clearly "And God did rest the seventh day from all his works." Did rest is past tense, and did rest the seventh day means that the seventh day arrived in full. It also says from all his works, which means the entire creation from distant galaxies to the tiniest creature on earth. See below for the rest of the story.

Why did you leave out the first part of Gen 4:4 which says?

Heb 4:4 For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all His works.

Tell us HOW someone can be born again Spiritually today, since it takes the AGREEMENT of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to "create" an Eternal being according to Gen 1:26 and John 14:16. God is STILL working today to fill His perfect Heaven with perfect people, made perfect in Christ. Just ask ANY Gospel preacher. When God rests (Heb-Ceases) from ALL of His work, it will be because His work had been brought to perfection. Otherwise, tell us WHY God ceased from ALL of His work for 24 hours in the beginning and hasn't rested since.

*** Lions have fangs for tearing flesh, therefore God did not create them to eat vegetables. Isa. 11 speaks of some future new age in which the creation will be fundamentally different, which likely corresponds to Rev. new heaven and earth. It is possible that lions had herbivorous teeth before the fall. But beside all that, it would be wrong to formulate some doctrine on that verse by speculation which is contrary to what Hebrews clearly states (which I believe you have done).

False since Gen 1:30 ends with the phrase "and it was so". This is a future event which will not happen until the end of the present 6th Age. The first 34 verses of Scripture are the entire HISTORY of the creation, including the events shown in Gen 1:28-31 which are future. We live today at Gen 1:27 because God the Trinity is STILL "creating" Adam (mankind) in Christ.


*** Yet Heb. 4 states clearly that God "rested from all His work." Hmm, I think you are confused about something in this case. The writer of Hebrews is declaring that God completed His work of creation in the physical creation, and this is typology concerning what the Sabbath signifies. Since God sustains all things by His power (Heb. 1:3), and is in control of all circumstances (Rom. 8:28), and by Him all things exist (1 Cor. 8:6), then it becomes obvious that God is always at work, because if God stops working then everything ceases to exist!!

Amen and that is WHY God will not cease creating UNTIL His creation of the perfect Heaven is complete and filled with ALL of it's HOST. Gen 2:1

*** Therefore, since the writers of scripture are always in agreement and there cannot be any contradiction in what they wrote, there must be some fundamental difference between God's work in creation which He ceased, and the work He continues to do. In fact, the John 5:17 passage is speaking of a spiritual work, which is quite different than the work of creating the universe. When you take two unrelated verses which have fundamentally different usages of the term "work" and you try to make them say the same thing, then you err in your hermeneutical method. Also in fact, I have repeatedly quoted Heb. 4:4 saying that God's work of creation ceased, and you have ignored or avoided it. What hoops do you jump through to deny what this verse clearly says?

Is Jesus God? Did He rest in the beginning? Is the Holy Spirit God? Is He still working today? Of course. God the Father is also still working and it would be impossible for Him to rest (Cease) creating or everything would fall apart. Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

*** This Isaiah passage was quoted to Israelite leaders as a prophecy of judgment. Are you applying this to yourself?
TD

My study is to show what Scripture actually says instead of accepting what some ancient theologian thought it said. God told Daniel HOW to hide His Truth in the increased knowledge of the last days, thus insuring that one MUST believe by Faith, until the last days when knowledge will be increased as it is TODAY, at the end of the 6th Day, the last Day, the Day of Salvation.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[Smidlee]

The thing creationists never get around to explaining, for some strange reason, is why scientists who are Christians, such as John Barrow, George Coyne, Martin Nowak, William Phillips Charles H Townes, Francisco Ayala, John Polkinghorne, Ken Miller, Simon Conway Morris, Sam Berry, Dennis Alexander, Antony Hewish, et al, should all be involved in a grand conspiracy to prop up that so called delusion.

You assume that Christians can't be deceived or can't compromise. I don't agree with your assumption. Christians can still be influenced by their culture.

 

[Smidlee]

Yes, the process of science is eliminating possibilities to narrow
down what is left. We all know that. That's the only thing science
does is remove possibilities to see what is left.

-What most don't know if you follow science to the final conclusion you will ended up doubting the existence of the universe. Science ends up refuting itself. Science is still the product of the human mind. We already know our understand of the universe falls apart on the two extremes , on the quantum and galaxy level.
-Both the Big Bang and evolution (ToE) totally rely on the principle of continuity to be true which is an old religious belief. If that belief is false both theories becomes unglued.
-Some people cheats to keep science from refuting itself. They basically try to have God tied up with duck tape over His mouth and only remove the tape long enough for God to perform a much needed miracle then return the tape over His mouth. Scientist will then take it from there until they run into another paradox.

Where I stand is I believe God can do everything and more in His creation that man can do in his creations. Just as man is a time lord in his creation so God is the ultimate Time Lord in His creation. God is the ultimate reality and the universe is the product of the mind (Word) of God.