Calvinism, explained.

[StanJ]

I know, right?
And yet because I agree with just his soteriology (5 points), I'm "Calvinist", right?

as T.U.L.I.P. is the bulk of reformed theology, and you agree to those Five Points what else are we to conclude?

 

[Rick Otto]

as T.U.L.I.P. is the bulk of reformed theology, and you agree to those Five Points what else are we to conclude?

That your labeling is more convenient than accurate.

 

[StanJ]

That your labeling is more convenient than accurate.

T.U.L.I.P. is the Five Points of Calvinism and you just admitted that you agree with them, so what exactly is inaccurate about what I said?

 

[Rick Otto]

T.U.L.I.P. is the Five Points of Calvinism and you just admitted that you agree with them, so what exactly is inaccurate about what I said?

I will repeat for your convenience:
I part ways with Calvin on sacramentology and ecclesiology, especially in the area of church discipline.
Thank you for asking.

 

[StanJ]

I will repeat for your convenience:
I part ways with Calvin on sacramentology and ecclesiology, especially in the area of church discipline.
Thank you for asking.

And where exactly would this fall under T.U.L.I.P.?

 

[Rick Otto]

And where exactly would this fall under T.U.L.I.P.?

Oh. So soteriology is the only measure of Calvinism?
Sounds pretty self serving.

 

[StanJ]

Oh. So soteriology is the only measure of Calvinism?
Sounds pretty self serving.

You are in the soteriology forum are you not? Do you intend to answer any of my queries or just avoid doing so by asking irrelevant questions?

 

[EmSw]

Some of those sec ret things are revealed, progressively over time. Some are not. Deal with it.

Do you think it is possible man can come up his own ideas and call them secret things of God? How would one judge such ideas? One of the problems with man today is he thinks God has spoken some 'secret thing' to him and runs with it.

There is no way to confirm, nor test the truth contained within the WCF that they claim to be the 'secret counsel' of God's will. Man must blindly accept it as truth, and a blind man walks in darkness. The only way to confirm any 'secret counsel' of God's will is from His revealed word. What God's 'secret counsel' was before all eternity is so far hidden from man, he has to be foolish to presume to know it. Even Paul said His ways are past finding out. Jeremiah said, 'For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, and has perceived and heard His word?'

Perhaps some will foolishly stand up and say His ways are not past finding out for them. Perhaps they will also say they have stood in the (secret) counsel of the Lord. And even perhaps they will find some uninformed people who blindly follow them.

You clearly do not understand predestination, as evidenced by the way you misuse the term.

I don't pretend or make believe I accept predestination as taught in the WCF. Predestination is one of the 'secrets' of God the writers of the WCF presume to know. Perhaps God has given you revelation concerning His predestination. Joseph Smith would argue God had given him revelation of secret things also. I keep my distance from anyone who claims to know the secret things of God, without any confirmation from God's revealed word.

Many, many cults have their beginnings from 'special' revelation from God, revelation they say the average man does not have.

 

[EmSw]

I just realized... free will, good works...
People think of these as redeeming aspects.

Mr. Bunsworthy gets in the door.

So Rick, you didn't reply to my reference to prophecy. Does God not know what will happen tomorrow because it isn't a reality yet?

 

[EmSw]

God has always known everything possible. (Chapters and verses available - although they shouldn't be necessary to anyone who has even a modest knowledge of the scriptures.)

Actually there are no possibilities with God. Everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen are set in stone before God. If there is any deviation from God's omniscience, then we find fault with His knowledge.

Possibilities are only with man in his limited knowledge, will, and actions. With man, many possibilities exist from which he may choose. This is purely from man's free will in choosing as he wishes.

However, with God, He knows of a surety what man will freely choose; no possibilities exist with God's perfect and steadfast knowledge. If man wants to put possible scenarios with God's knowledge, then man brings God down to his limited and pitiful level. Possibilities are only presented to man. Possibilities entertain uncertainty and a lack of knowledge.

And with God's certain and steadfast knowledge of all things present before Him, predestination is a useless thought with God. God needs no external force or circumstance for His knowledge to be complete. If God needs anything to have His knowledge to come to pass, then His knowledge is weak and uncertain.

If God knows Joe Blow will freely decide to give his life to Him tomorrow, God does not need to predestine it for it to come to pass. If God has to predestine it, then predestination then becomes a crutch to God's perfect and steadfast knowledge.

Man, who cannot understand God's ways and thoughts think God needs help with His knowledge for it to come to pass. Therefore, man thinks God must predestine everything, because man only sees from his limited knowledge. Saying God predestines everything in accordance with His knowledge not only makes God a weak and uncertain being, but also insults His perfect and steadfast knowledge. Predestination brings God's perfect knowledge down to the level of man's limited knowledge.

 

[Rick Otto]

You didn't address my point (as usual). What power does God's predestination have, if it all depends upon man's choices?

I would like to address your point, but I can't make sense of how predestination would depend on, instead of predestine, choices.
Choices have to be made between created alternatives. That alone makes choices predestined to a degree.

 

[Rick Otto]

So Rick, you didn't reply to my reference to prophecy. Does God not know what will happen tomorrow because it isn't a reality yet?

I don't get your point, but to try and answer...
There is nothing God doesn't know.
Reality is the realization of God's will. The will exists before the expression of it occurs.
God created tomorrow. How can He not know what He created?

 

[Rick Otto]

Actually there are no possibilities with God. Everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen are set in stone before God. If there is any deviation from God's omniscience, then we find fault with His knowledge.

Possibilities are only with man in his limited knowledge, will, and actions. With man, many possibilities exist from which he may choose. This is purely from man's free will in choosing as he wishes.

However, with God, He knows of a surety what man will freely choose; no possibilities exist with God's perfect and steadfast knowledge. If man wants to put possible scenarios with God's knowledge, then man brings God down to his limited and pitiful level. Possibilities are only presented to man. Possibilities entertain uncertainty and a lack of knowledge.

And with God's certain and steadfast knowledge of all things present before Him, predestination is a useless thought with God. God needs no external force or circumstance for His knowledge to be complete. If God needs anything to have His knowledge to come to pass, then His knowledge is weak and uncertain.

If God knows Joe Blow will freely decide to give his life to Him tomorrow, God does not need to predestine it for it to come to pass. If God has to predestine it, then predestination then becomes a crutch to God's perfect and steadfast knowledge.

Man, who cannot understand God's ways and thoughts think God needs help with His knowledge for it to come to pass. Therefore, man thinks God must predestine everything, because man only sees from his limited knowledge. Saying God predestines everything in accordance with His knowledge not only makes God a weak and uncertain being, but also insults His perfect and steadfast knowledge. Predestination brings God's perfect knowledge down to the level of man's limited knowledge.

That was sounding pretty good until you got to Joe Blow.
The reason God knows what Joe will do is because it is a part of what He knowingly created.
You brought His perfect steadfast knowledge down to man's pitiful level by ignoring that.

But that part about possibility only being man's perception explains why man thinks his will is free of God's will.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Actually there are no possibilities with God. ....

No possibilities with God? You've got to be kidding.

"Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day." Matthew 11:20-23

God controls everything from the ability of any given person to think clearly about the gospel to the number of hairs on his head.

God controls the existence and fate of all nations and cities as well. God controls all of the parameters that events occur in in His creation.

From the scriptures we learn that God even knows what would occur in a paradigm which doesn't exist because He choose to put in place another paradigm altogether.

These things are really basic to an understanding of God and His providential control of all of His creation. I suggest you bone up on them.

It's little wonder that you hold some of the beliefs you do. You obviously skipped the basics on the way to the soteriology section of this forum.

If you don't have a Bible available, I could provide one for you. Or perhaps you could use Bible Gateway or Bible Hub online to help rethink some of your beliefs.

... Saying God predestines everything in accordance with His knowledge not only makes God a weak and uncertain being,

Actually it makes Him an all powerful and wise being who works "everything" after the council of His good and perfect will.

.... but also insults His perfect and steadfast knowledge.

Actually denying that He has always known all possibilities insults His perfect and steadfast knowledge.

.... Predestination brings God's perfect knowledge down to the level of man's limited knowledge.

To the contrary. The denial of predestination says that God is just playing it by ear as He goes along - much as man in his limited knowledge does.

We'll see how it goes. I intend this to be my last post directed to you for a while. You obviously need to go away for awhile and bone up on some basics concerning the nature of God and His providential controlling relationship with his creation.

Don't forget to pray for wisdom first. That always seems to help when reconsidering your beliefs.

In the mean time - if you do hang around here - you can read any of my posts to others and perhaps they will remind you of some of the things I have told you in the past about predestination.

 

[EmSw]

No possibilities with God? You've got to be kidding.

"Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day." Matthew 11:20-23

Don't you see that the possibilities lie with man? God's knowledge is certain! Are you saying God's knowledge has possibilities of something happening another way? Are you saying God isn't sure His knowledge is true? Are you saying God's knowledge is questionable, that there could be alternatives to His knowledge?

Are you saying there are other possibilities for man to be saved outside of God? Are you saying there is a possibility the Bible isn't true? Are you saying the possibility exists that God is a fraud? Are you saying there could be a possibility that Jesus wasn't the Savior?

Do you think God did not know the future and waited upon other possibilities before He made decisions? If there are other possibilities with God, then His determination is questionable and uncertain. If there are other possibilities, then your salvation is in question. Your very life cannot count on God, for He has other possibilities for you. If there are other possibilities with God, then God is lying when He says He changes not.

If possibilities exist with God, then the Reformed movement could be the very belief from hell. How can you believe anything God says Marvin, if there are other possibilities and God changes His mind? Religion is nothing more than a guessing game if other possibilities exist with God.

Marvin, do you believe when God says, 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God', that other possibilities exist? Do you think it's possible He isn't the First and Last? Do you think it's possible there are other Gods besides Him?

God controls everything from the ability of any given person to think clearly about the gospel to the number of hairs on his head.

How can God control everything and know the number of hairs on your head if other possibilities exist?

God controls the existence and fate of all nations and cities as well. God controls all of the parameters that events occur in in His creation.

How can God control the fate of nations if other possibilities exist? Perhaps you can tell some other possibilities.

From the scriptures we learn that God even knows what would occur in a paradigm which doesn't exist because He choose to put in place another paradigm altogether.

God doesn't know if other possibilities exist.

These things are really basic to an understanding of God and His providential control of all of His creation. I suggest you bone up on them.

It's little wonder that you hold some of the beliefs you do. You obviously skipped the basics on the way to the soteriology section of this forum.

If you don't have a Bible available, I could provide one for you. Or perhaps you could use Bible Gateway or Bible Hub online to help rethink some of your beliefs.

Perhaps there are other possibilities to other things which are basic to understanding God. Perhaps there are possibilities to God that He doesn't control all His creation. Perhaps there are other possibilities to God giving you truth; do you see where your thinking leads? Perhaps there is the possibility of God just being an illusion, and man is really the master of this world. Perhaps God doesn't really know what will happen and has to predestine everything so His knowledge comes to pass.

Actually it makes Him an all powerful and wise being who works "everything" after the council of His good and perfect will.

Perhaps the possibility exists He doesn't work everything after the counsel of His good and perfect will. Perhaps the possibility exists He isn't all powerful and wise. How can you believe anything God says if the possibility exists of Him not telling the truth?

Actually denying that He has always known all possibilities insults His perfect and steadfast knowledge.

Actually, His knowledge doesn't contain the guessing of other possibilities; His knowledge is sure it WILL happen as He knows, with no other possibility.

To the contrary. The denial of predestination says that God is just playing it by ear as He goes along - much as man in his limited knowledge does.

So God's knowledge is just playing it by ear? Without predestination, God's knowledge falls short. God doesn't really know what will happen unless He predestines it.

Let me say, without predestination, everything in history would have happened just as they have. Do you agree?

We'll see how it goes. I intend this to be my last post directed to you for a while. You obviously need to go away for awhile and bone up on some basics concerning the nature of God and His providential controlling relationship with his creation.

Don't forget to pray for wisdom first. That always seems to help when reconsidering your beliefs.

In the mean time - if you do hang around here - you can read any of my posts to others and perhaps they will remind you of the some things I have told you in the past about predestination.

Let me ask you this - Did God know everything about Peter? Was there a possibility of Peter being or doing things another way than what God knew? If yes, then God's knowledge is just like man's, that is, weak and lacking. If no, then God is all-knowing, sovereign, and truthful.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Are you saying God's knowledge has possibilities of something happening another way?

What did Jesus just say? I gave you the quote.

Are you saying God isn't sure His knowledge is true? Are you saying God's knowledge is questionable, that there could be alternatives to His knowledge?

Are you saying there are other possibilities for man to be saved outside of God? Are you saying there is a possibility the Bible isn't true? Are you saying the possibility exists that God is a fraud? Are you saying there could be a possibility that Jesus wasn't the Savior?

Do you think God did not know the future and waited upon other possibilities before He made decisions? If there are other possibilities with God, then His determination is questionable and uncertain. If there are other possibilities, then your salvation is in question. Your very life cannot count on God, for He has other possibilities for you. If there are other possibilities with God, then God is lying when He says He changes not.

If possibilities exist with God, then the Reformed movement could be the very belief from hell. How can you believe anything God says Marvin, if there are other possibilities and God changes His mind? Religion is nothing more than a guessing game if other possibilities exist with God.

Marvin, do you believe when God says, 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God', that other possibilities exist? Do you think it's possible He isn't the First and Last? Do you think it's possible there are other Gods besides Him?

How can God control everything and know the number of hairs on your head if other possibilities exist?

How can God control the fate of nations if other possibilities exist? Perhaps you can tell some other possibilities.

God doesn't know if other possibilities exist.

Perhaps there are other possibilities to other things which are basic to understanding God. Perhaps there are possibilities to God that He doesn't control all His creation. Perhaps there are other possibilities to God giving you truth; do you see where your thinking leads? Perhaps there is the possibility of God just being an illusion, and man is really the master of this world. Perhaps God doesn't really know what will happen and has to predestine everything so His knowledge comes to pass.

Perhaps the possibility exists He doesn't work everything after the counsel of His good and perfect will. Perhaps the possibility exists He isn't all powerful and wise. How can you believe anything God says if the possibility exists of Him not telling the truth?

Actually, His knowledge doesn't contain the guessing of other possibilities; His knowledge is sure it WILL happen as He knows, with no other possibility.

So God's knowledge is just playing it by ear? Without predestination, God's knowledge falls short. God doesn't really know what will happen unless He predestines it.

Let me say, without predestination, everything in history would have happened just as they have. Do you agree?

Let me ask you this - Did God know everything about Peter? Was there a possibility of Peter being or doing things another way than what God knew? If yes, then God's knowledge is just like man's, that is, weak and lacking. If no, then God is all-knowing, sovereign, and truthful.

I really didn't intend to insult you this time around.

But all of this rest of your post is so silly and shallow thinking that it's almost beyond belief.

Perhaps you should start with this very simple rudimentary example I'll leave you with and then go away for a while and think about it.

Come back when you've grown up a little.

God knew that Adam and Eve would sin if He planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, told them not to eat of it, and placed the serpent in the garden to tempt them.

Sure enough they looked the tree over, listened to the serpent, and ate of the tree.

They did it because God created the exact paradigm that He knew would produce a certain result - a result that He knew would happen if He created that exact paradigm.

You with me?

If God had chosen a different paradigm then what He knew would happen in the first paradigm would not happen.

No Adam and Eve = no fall of mankind.
No tree of the knowledge of good and evil = no fall of mankind.
No serpent to tempt them = no fall of mankind.
No fruit on the tree = no fall of mankind.
No eating of the fruit = no fall of mankind.

You with me?

God knows all possibilities and God knows all things that will actually happen.

He knows all things that will actually happen precisely because He is the one who creates the exact paradigm where an exact possibility will become a reality.

You with me?

Go away and apply that to the statement from the Lord that I gave you about what the various cities would do in certain circumstances and what they would not do if those circumstances did not exist.

After you've got that straight - apply it as best you can to everyday occurrences and how they might change if there were different paradigms in place.

You with me?

God has and always has had a literally infinite number of puzzle pieces to work with. He creates them as He will and He places them as He will.

He does so by sending forth His Word to accomplish what He wills.

All things exist in and through His Word.

".....one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"... from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever." Romans 11:36

"... He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Colossians 1:17

You with me?

God's decree predestines all that the Word does.

"So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

You with me?

Now one last thing and I'll let you go away and think on these very rudimentary things from scripture.

Notice the highlight portions from the Isaiah statement about the decree of God.

Notice that God does not send forth His (omnipresent) Word without a "plan".

He predestines a certain result for everything that His Word does.

And note again that His Word is what does everything.

"In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28

All really basic stuff, I know. But you seem to be missing some of the basics.

We'll undoubtedly talk again if you work on these things. If you refuse to learn - we will be done.

You with me?

 

[EmSw]

What did Jesus just say? I gave you the quote.

Since you believe that the things God has known for billions and billions of years has the possibility to be wrong, I think you need to go ask God why His omniscience isn't constant, fixed, true, reliable, nor creditable. When and if He tells you, come back and report to us how His omniscience can be mistaken, wrong, incorrect, erroneous, and not worthy of our faith.

I suspect you will be waiting for eternity for the answer you hope to get. I also suggest you keep to yourself that God has the possibility to be wrong in His omniscience; you will weaken the faith of those just starting in Christ.

It also seems apparent you have very little faith, or none at all, in His omniscience. I wondering if this is why you believe in predestination. I guess you think He has to predestine things in order for His unreliable, feeble, powerless, unresolved, indecisive, and undetermined omniscience to come to pass.

 

[nobdysfool]

Since you believe that the things God has known for billions and billions of years has the possibility to be wrong, I think you need to go ask God why His omniscience isn't constant, fixed, true, reliable, nor creditable. When and if He tells you, come back and report to us how His omniscience can be mistaken, wrong, incorrect, erroneous, and not worthy of our faith.

I suspect you will be waiting for eternity for the answer you hope to get. I also suggest you keep to yourself that God has the possibility to be wrong in His omniscience; you will weaken the faith of those just starting in Christ.

It also seems apparent you have very little faith, or none at all, in His omniscience. I wondering if this is why you believe in predestination. I guess you think He has to predestine things in order for His unreliable, feeble, powerless, unresolved, indecisive, and undetermined omniscience to come to pass.

Well, it's obvious to most here that your reading comprehension skills are severely limited, because the things you accuse here are NOTHING even remotely close to what he said, in face in almost every case, the opposite of what he said. That comes perilously close to troll-ish behavior. Trolls are not allowed here.

 

[EmSw]

Well, it's obvious to most here that your reading comprehension skills are severely limited, because the things you accuse here are NOTHING even remotely close to what he said, in face in almost every case, the opposite of what he said. That comes perilously close to troll-ish behavior. Trolls are not allowed here.

So you believe what God has known for billions of years has the possibility to be wrong also.

 

[nobdysfool]

So you believe what God has known for billions of years has the possibility to be wrong also.

I did not say that, and you KNOW I did not say that. You just want to accuse others falsely, and stir up strife.

Why?